What is the Definitive "Stretching" for a N00b?

Thargor

After a run I mean, I just started the couch to 5k program and already my legs are begining to interfere, not sure if they're shin splints but they match the symptoms. Im not unfit either, 50 km on a bike is nothing to me and 100 km is easily doable but my legs just dont seem to recover from running.

Im guessing my nutrition and "stretching" are severely lacking. All the apps and blogs just tell you to stretch but what actually do you do? Very hard to get specific information on this compared to cycling, thanks.

TFBubendorfer

I don't stretch and never will, and attribute the fact that I have not been injured in years to exactly that fact.

nobody told me

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I don't stretch and never will, and attribute the fact that I have not been injured in years to exactly that fact.

So stretching is a waste of time then?

Ososlo

nobody told me wrote: »

So stretching is a waste of time then?

yes but nobody told you!

rom

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I don't stretch and never will, and attribute the fact that I have not been injured in years to exactly that fact.

Same here not stretching. I get a massage now and again but thats it.

seamus

Never stretch here either.

I've tried stretching in the past. Never noticed any difference between stretching and not stretching. Warm up and warm down is far more important.

I was the same as you - very cycle fit and started running. You're at massive risk of pushing yourself too hard because aerobically your body is saying this is no problem, but your legs are quite a bit behind. So ease it back a bit.

SeaDaily

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I don't stretch and never will, and attribute the fact that I have not been injured in years to exactly that fact.

Pretty big call there. Is your flexibility not terrible? I used to run 7 days a week and didn't really stretch that much and I was fine. I have since stopped running and started weightlifting though, and my lack of flexibility is an absolute killer.

drquirky

I'm with TB never stretched and never will and tbh the only significant injury I've ever had involved bones and was 13 or 14 yrs ago. One of the best ways to loosen up and prevent injury is run "Kenyan style" i.e. the first couple of miles super slow and gently wind it up-works better than any stretch.

ecoli

drquirky wrote: »

I'm with TB never stretched and never will and tbh the only significant injury I've ever had involved bones and was 13 or 14 yrs ago. One of the best ways to loosen up and prevent injury is run "Kenyan style" i.e. the first couple of miles super slow and gently wind it up-works better than any stretch.

But the Kenyans spend hours stretching?

kiwirunner wrote: »

Don't get me started on Ugali! They eat it by the bucket load, and as a consequence so (now) do I. I would have to say that I prefer Irish ugali (potato), but Ugali is a good source of energy so I'm happy to keep eating it!

@ slogger jogger: There are so many ideas that I'm picking up by the day here. I'm conscious of not jumping the gun and writing about things before I fully understand them.

But the obvious things that I have immediately applied to my training regime are stretching and core work. I'm told that as athletes get older (I guess over 25) and have more mileage in the legs they are coached to spend more time stretching and building core strength and perhaps a bit less time running (even at elite level).

Everyone seems to spend a lot of time stretching. Probably partly because you can't get away with running 2/3 times a day without it, and also because stretching seems to be 'social time' here. The Kenyan runners don't normally speak to each other when they run/jog together. Complete silence, so much so that I feel guilty when my garmin bleeps every kilometre! But they stretch for at least half an hour together after the run and chat away. It helps that they can be outside in the fresh warm air at a park, rather than sitting in snow at bushy park freezing cold.

So far this experience is a massive learning curve. My next post is about adjusting to the altitude (how it affects training), then I'm thinking to write some observations about the lifestyle of the elite runners here, training programs and examples of sessions, diet, and any other things that come up along the way.

Just watched Emanuel Matai (2nd place Rotterdam marathon 2010, 2nd place Berlin marathon 2010) beat a strong field in a rough-as-nails 12k x-country race in the large scrubby and hilly field next to our house! Meanwhile, a 2:15 marathoner from the UK got completely hammered by the field. Crazy stuff! I'm thinking of racing x country in Eldoret next week, just for the craic :-)

The one thing I will say is that alot of people are mentioning not stretching and massage in the same breaths but as a sports massage therapist I can tell you that alot of the techniques used involve stretching so as such many of these people are actually without realising it.

My advice would be to learn the different types of stretching and how to apply them properly, Stretching is like training -do it incorrectly, overdo it etc and it will cause problems.

morceli

I wouldn't be able to train at all with out some stretching, Hips and calf get very tight if not stretched, But for the most part active warmup is the best and warming up slowly by running.

dna_leri

Thargor wrote: »

After a run I mean, I just started the couch to 5k program and already my legs are begining to interfere, not sure if they're shin splints but they match the symptoms. Im not unfit either, 50 km on a bike is nothing to me and 100 km is easily doable but my legs just dont seem to recover from running.

Im guessing my nutrition and "stretching" are severely lacking. All the apps and blogs just tell you to stretch but what actually do you do? Very hard to get specific information on this compared to cycling, thanks.

You are guessing that nutrition and stretching are severely lacking, maybe they are, but neither is likely to be the cause of aches and pains in your legs.

You are not unfit but your legs are not used to running.
First make sure you have got decent running shoes that suit you - go to a specialist shop if in doubt.
Second slow down. As Seamus said your legs have a long way to catch up with your CV system
Third - do some running on different surfaces, grass is good, concrete is bad, variety is best.

As you have already found out there are many opinions on the benefits of stretching. Personally I don't know anyone who got injured by stretching but I know plenty who did by doing too fast too early. By all means do some stretching and eat better but don't expect them to be cure-alls.

TFBubendorfer

nobody told me wrote: »

So stretching is a waste of time then?

As can be seen on that thread, opinions vary.

Personally I think stretching is not only a waste of time, it actually increases your chances of getting injured. And unlike one of the previous posters, I do know a couple of runners who got injured as a direct result of over-enthusiastic stretching.

I do concede the point that stretching might possibly be helpful if someone knows exactly what they are doing, but the vast majority of runners don't (myself included) and would be much better off not stretching at all.

Thargor

Well this was an eye opener of a thread! Thats great news then, just need to dial it back a bit, might start cycling to a grassy place and doing short runs there then, need new runners aswell, thanks all.

pconn062

I think it depends on the type of training as well. I know personally that if I go for an easy run I can get away with a few easy stretches afterwards. But if I try to bang out a session of 200's at 800m pace without a proper warm up which includes dynamic/active stretching and drills, I will injure myself.

pa4

pconn062 wrote: »

I think it depends on the type of training as well. I know personally that if I go for an easy run I can get away with a few easy stretches afterwards. But if I try to bang out a session of 200's at 800m pace without a proper warm up which includes dynamic/active stretching and drills, I will injure myself.

Very same with me. With an easy run I might do a small bit sometimes I mightn't do any whereas a session I wouldn't dream of not doing a proper warm up and down which would include dynamic/active stretching and drills. I have often not done a proper warm down after a session or race and I felt way worse the next day.

The science behind stretching is one of those things that contradicts itself so much your better off doing whatever you feel comfortable with. One study might say stretching is the most important thing you should be doing whereas another will say you couldn't be doing anything worse and it'll destroy your muscles.

Thargor

Whats a good warm up and warm down? Just walk for 5 minutes?

Greenmachine

Never cold stretched.

ger664

I do active stretches/foam rolling after recovery/easy runs. I never do it before any run or after a hard session.

tomdempsey200

I quit stretching completely too after years of running

I reckon it's a waste of time and causes injury

just do strength stuff now

squats lunges step ups calf raises etc

rom

Thargor wrote: »

Whats a good warm up and warm down? Just walk for 5 minutes?

Based on the lore of running it varies from 20 mins approx for unfit people to about 10 mins for top level athletes. I also do do miles at easy pace or so. This is how long it takes to get your aerobic system working according to Lore of Running.

thewolf_ie

I switched to yoga poses e.g. "Downward faced dog" because of injury. My running and injury has greatly improved. You need to find what works for you I would say a developing muscle would need more stretching then a developed muscle.

I agreed with slow warm up including some strides and cool down are important. I try and leave some walking distance on either side of my tougher runs.

huskerdu

Thargor wrote: »

Whats a good warm up and warm down? Just walk for 5 minutes?

Yes, just start very slowly and slowly speed up as you warm up.
Work out what is best for you.

If you are coming straight from sitting at a desk in an overheated office for hours your muscles will need more warm up than if you had spent the previous hour walking / doing housework etc.

inigo

Again, from J. Goater's The Art of Running Faster, a full chapter on Stretching (Chapter 5). He recommends stretching (evenly) several times a day, every day, specially before and after a training session and in order to feel loose and free and easy and to increase suppleness.

I either do a bit of yoga or simply some postures, sometimes before and after a run, which serves me as part of my warm up/cool down routines. If I don't do any yoga/stretching for a while but keep running, I notice particularly around my hips and lower back.

TFBubendorfer

Thargor wrote: »

Whats a good warm up and warm down? Just walk for 5 minutes?

I start every run by running VERY easily for a mile or two. It's the best warm up I ever managed to find/come up with.

tomdempsey200

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I start every run by running VERY easily for a mile or two. It's the best warm up I ever managed to find/come up with.

the advantage also with the long warm up

is you can check for niggles and skip the main run if neccessary to avoid further injury

HelenAnne

I actually love stretching! I think the only thing that's been proven to be good for you (& I can't remember the study) is stretching daily, whether you're running or not. I suppose whatever works for you though - I stretch nearly every morning, and have been doing so since before I began to run. I often stretch after running, but often skip it too - it hasn't seemed to make any difference. I'd always do a mile or so warm up jog before a race though - don't think I've ever raced without doing one - and a cool down after.

Obviously, what works for one person won't necessarily work for another, but stretching almost daily, and stretching after a run if I feel tight, seems to work for me. I have been injured over the years, but apart from runner's knee when I first started running, I don't think anything I've had (sprained ankle etc) could have been prevented by more stretching.

Bridgerunner

Tend to agree with most of what's said , first few miles as warm and then finish with stretching when the run is done, don't do much my self to b honest but I know if you get injured and go for physio they will normally prescribe stretching as home care so it hard to know ??

smacl

Glad I found this thread and was about to ask a very similar question.

seamus wrote: »

I was the same as you - very cycle fit and started running. You're at massive risk of pushing yourself too hard because aerobically your body is saying this is no problem, but your legs are quite a bit behind. So ease it back a bit.

Ended up going for a run in the hills on Sunday, average fitness from cycling and a bit or martial arts, but the legs have been in bits as a result the run for the last two days. Specifically the muscles on the front of the legs below thigh level. I haven't been running for past two years but would like to get back into the habit, as I enjoy running. I suspect the specific muscles that are sore aren't getting a workout from the cycling and are somewhat atrophied by comparison.

Is there any recommended optimum frequency and duration to get back into running? I'm 47, 6ft and 85kg, and would be keen to get back to running 5k-10k two to three times a week. Similarly, other than just more running, are there any specific exercises to help a cyclist get into running?

dna_leri

smacl wrote: »

Glad I found this thread and was about to ask a very similar question.



Ended up going for a run in the hills on Sunday, average fitness from cycling and a bit or martial arts, but the legs have been in bits as a result the run for the last two days. Specifically the muscles on the front of the legs below thigh level. I haven't been running for past two years but would like to get back into the habit, as I enjoy running. I suspect the specific muscles that are sore aren't getting a workout from the cycling and are somewhat atrophied by comparison.

Is there any recommended optimum frequency and duration to get back into running? I'm 47, 6ft and 85kg, and would be keen to get back to running 5k-10k two to three times a week. Similarly, other than just more running, are there any specific exercises to help a cyclist get into running?

As you will know, the best training for cycling is getting up on a bike and putting in the miles. Likewise with running, there is no substitute for getting out there and putting one foot in front of the other. Just keep it easy paced and remember that "metabolic fitness precedes structural readiness" and that's why we can get injured.

smacl

dna_leri wrote: »

As you will know, the best training for cycling is getting up on a bike and putting in the miles. Likewise with running, there is no substitute for getting out there and putting one foot in front of the other. Just keep it easy paced and remember that "metabolic fitness precedes structural readiness" and that's why we can get injured.

Thanks for that. I think the big difference is that cycling is more forgiving, for me at least the pain cycling up the hill is never matched by any aches or pains next day. I'll try short runs ever second day for a few weeks and see how I get on.

seamus

smacl wrote: »

Thanks for that. I think the big difference is that cycling is more forgiving, for me at least the pain cycling up the hill is never matched by any aches or pains next day.

It was initially though, right?
Though granted, cycling is more likely to be just DOMS, whereas with running you might get achy joints and stuff too.

I'll try short runs ever second day for a few weeks and see how I get on.

Intensity is just as important as distance. If you decide to do 3km runs, but clear it in less than 16 minutes, you will probably find yourself just as sore as if you'd done a 5km run in 30 minutes.

It can be hard starting out to find the sweet point where you're going hard enough to make a difference but not so hard as to hurt yourself. At the start it basically always feels quite difficult and it takes a couple of weeks to condition yourself to recognising what different intensities feel like.

If you've been watching and know your HR zones from cycling though, you can make some good guesses at it. At a rough unscientific level, your running HR zones will be about 10bpm higher than your cycling ones. So if your Z1 in cycling begins at 130bpm, then your Z1 for running probably begins somewhere between 135 and 145 bpm.

When starting out try to keep yourself in Z1 & Z2 and keep your runs short, 30 minutes give or take. Forget about distance and just focus on time until you find yourself comfortably clearing 5km in 30 minutes running in only Z1 and Z2 and basically zero aches or pains the next day.

Then you can look at more detailed plans which include ramping up the distance, adding in speed work, etc.

topper75

All credit to the myriad of schools of thought on stretching and its merits for runners, but you won't stretch away shin splints. It's really a symptom of not giving the legs enough time to condition to the running discipline OP.

A brilliant rule of thumb is: no more than 10% distance increase week on week. Patiently stick to this and you'll be a stranger to injuries.

Intuitively, you think cycling and running are both cardiovascular-orientated pursuits focusing on the legs. That is where the similarity ends however. One isn't training for the other based on my own empirical experience.

ecoli

topper75 wrote: »

All credit to the myriad of schools of thought on stretching and its merits for runners, but you won't stretch away shin splints.

Shin splints is an umbrella term which can be caused by either biomechanical issues or motor imbalance issues as a results of tight muscles (calves, tib post., glute medius) causing excessive pronation so in fact stretching may be an effective form of treatment for shin splints depending on the root cause

Bridgerunner

Yeah it's difficult to know what to do for sure, lots of studies to say it has no real effect but if you go for treatment for injury tomorrow yiu will normall be proscribed with a home care plan of which stretching will be included!!!

Horses for courses I think ,,

topper75

ecoli wrote: »

Shin splints is an umbrella term which can be caused by either biomechanical issues or motor imbalance issues as a results of tight muscles (calves, tib post., glute medius) causing excessive pronation so in fact stretching may be an effective form of treatment for shin splints depending on the root cause

I see, but tight calves are a whole other kettle of fish. I always took the shin splints as the soreness in the muscles at the front of the lower leg. Too much impact 'off the couch' is the usual cause.

There are piles of articles debunking stretching full stop. Here was the one I gave most creedence to.

http://saveyourself.ca/articles/stretching.php

Honestly don't know what to think. If nothing else, stretching provides some sort of ritualistic bookending of the workout. I've always found slow jog to start more useful myself.

plodder

I had plantar fasciitis and the treatment was among other things, lots of stretching, and it went away. Since then, if I fail to stretch after a couple of runs in succession, particularly long ones, I can feel it coming back the next morning. It could be the case that my muscles aren't very flexible but it's all the evidence I need. I have to stretch after running. I don't stretch beforehand though.

ecoli

topper75 wrote: »

I see, but tight calves are a whole other kettle of fish. I always took the shin splints as the soreness in the muscles at the front of the lower leg. Too much impact 'off the couch' is the usual cause.

There are piles of articles debunking stretching full stop. Here was the one I gave most creedence to.

http://saveyourself.ca/articles/stretching.php

Honestly don't know what to think. If nothing else, stretching provides some sort of ritualistic bookending of the workout. I've always found slow jog to start more useful myself.

Tight calf muscles (here I am talking of the above mentioned as well as the Gasrtonemius, Soleus and Flexor didgitorum longus) have been directly implicated in in what is known as "Medial Tibial stress syndrome" (or one of the more common conditions known as Shin Splints), Tight calf muscles can leave the muscles you are referring to in a chronically over stretch position due to them being antagonistic muscles.

Muscles shouldn't be seen in isolation when looking towards injuries

Also I have had a quick look at that article (will go back over in detail when I get a chance) and there is a heavy reliance on anecdotal evidence including his "flexibility experiment" which has many more short comings than the select few he addresses.

topper75

ecoli wrote: »

Also I have had a quick look at that article (will go back over in detail when I get a chance) and there is a heavy reliance on anecdotal evidence including his "flexibility experiment" which has many more short comings than the select few he addresses.

Sure - it is not hard science and if you are one that cannot digest anything that isn't referenced to hell a la peer-reviewed journal stuff, he will grate. His reference to some key muscles in the body being simply unstretchable is food for thought though.

There is something natural about stretching casually, but on the other hand it has been put on a pedestal by some as a prerequisite to all training sessions when that is not established even by science.

Stazza

The whole stretching dilemma is pretty interesting. There are a number of studies out there that suggest stretching has little or no positive impact on performance. There are studies showing that static stretching, when done before exercise, has a negative impact on VO2 Max. There are thought provoking ‘papers’ by people like Steve Magness that leave the reader thinking that stretching doesn’t really matter – it’s more about how the muscles perform when they are ‘running’ and all that jazz.

Now, I doubt very much that anybody on here will change their mind about stretching. But just think about this:

In just about every single sport, at the top level, most of the athletes do some form of dynamic stretching before and after, as well as static stretching and massages after. If the therapist is worth their salt, they will ensure that some form of stretching takes place during the massage – on top of the very specific stretching that is actually occurring during the massage.

Now then, take football (soccer) – pro footballers do dynamic stretching and AIS before training/matches and dynamic and static stretching after the match.

Good quality semi-pro teams will do the same but to a lesser extent.

Lower end semi-pro teams will do some sort of Mickey Mouse dynamic stretching before the game and then they rigorously stretch their drinking arms after the game.

Div 5 Sunday league teams might give their stones a stretch before the game – but that might be more to check and see how they are after the previous night’s exertions.

Runners are the same! Did you see Bolt before the Olympic 100m final in the waiting room: AIS. Did you see them out on the warm up track – all of them doing dynamic stretching and AIS.

Some, but not many, elite distance guys don’t bother stretching. Most do. And so on. Where do you fit in in the grand scale of things?

And one final note, the Kenyan Endurance Boys most definitely do stretch and work on ancillary factors – but that’s not what makes them great athletes, nor is it EPO. Training I hear you scream! No, it comes down to tembo and miraa and Big G Bubble Gum – you heard it here first - I kid you not.