Foreign Volunteers in the Irish War of Independence?

riffmongous

Evening all,

this was just an idea that struck me while reading the Boer War thread: was there any foreign volunteers fighting on the independence side during the War of Independence? During most of the first half of the 20th century foreign volunteers were a common sight in most ideological wars, with the ones fighting on both sides in WW2 and the Spanish Civil War being the best known I guess, but they were also present during Winter War, Boer War as seen earlier,Chinese Civil War, Finnish Civil War I guess and of course Karl Gustaf von Rosen.

I can't say I ever heard of any truely foreign people being involved, so a question would be why that was the case in an anti-imperialistic war? Also it would be good to make a distinction here between non-irish born but 'ethnically' irish volunteers, such as irish-american or irish-british born

Peregrinus

Depends on what you mean by "foreign". Erskine Childers and Madame Despard leap at once to mind; they had some Irish ancestry but were basically English by birth, upbrininging and culture. No doubt there would be other examples from Britain.

But, while it may be true that "foreign volunteers were a common sight in most ideological wars", the Irish War of Independence wasn't really an ideological war, but a war of national liberation. Ideologically, the Irish state that resulted from it wasn't all that different from the UK, and the big ideological issue of the day - the class struggle - was pretty well sidelined by all parties, and deliberately so.

riffmongous

Peregrinus wrote: »

Depends on what you mean by "foreign". Erskine Childers and Madame Despard leap at once to mind; they had some Irish ancestry but were basically English by birth, upbrininging and culture. No doubt there would be other examples from Britain.

Childers I would consider in this case in the irish-british born, it would be more interesting if there was anyone truely 'foreign'.

But, while it may be true that "foreign volunteers were a common sight in most ideological wars", the Irish War of Independence wasn't really an ideological war, but a war of national liberation. Ideologically, the Irish state that resulted from it wasn't all that different from the UK, and the big ideological issue of the day - the class struggle - was pretty well sidelined by all parties, and deliberately so.

Yeah that was a poor choice of words, I really meant to include anti-imperialism, which is what a lot of those other wars that attracted volunteers would have been, The Winter War and Boer War being two examples

gobnaitolunacy

Spotted this online looking up general stuff on deserters...http://www.warofindependence.info/?page_id=411

'Later in the war a small number of British soldiers not only deserted - but actually defected and joined the I.R.A. these included; Charlie Chidlie an English Soldier stationed in Offaly. Peter Monoghan a Scottish private with the Royal Engineers who deserted from his barracks in Cobh, and joined the I.R.A.’s 3rd West Cork Brigade and was killed fighting against the British Army at Crossbarry on 19 March 1921. Reginald Hathaway a Londoner who deserted from of the East Lancashire Regiment in Kerry and joined the I.R.A.. He fought as an I.R.A. Volunteer in the Civil War until he was captured and executed by the Free State Army in 1923.'

mickmackey1

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

Charlie Chidlie an English Soldier... Peter Monoghan a Scottish private... Reginald Hathaway a Londoner

Pretty amazing how those guys managed to convince the IRA of their motives... must try that myself someday on the Shankill road :pac:

gobnaitolunacy

mickmackey1 wrote: »

Pretty amazing how those guys managed to convince the IRA of their motives... must try that myself someday on the Shankill road :pac:

Suppose it depended what sort of an IRA unit they linked up with, what stage in the WOI it was, an upfront offer of useful info or arms or perhaps things like having Irish parents or local connections?

kidneyfan

Abraham Weekes and John Neil. English socialists both died in the rising.

mickmackey1

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

things like having Irish parents or local connections?

Yes, seems like the most plausible reason, hadn't thought of that actually.

riffmongous

kidneyfan wrote: »

Abraham Weekes and John Neil. English socialists both died in the rising.

Do you have any source on them?

pablomakaveli

I remember reading about a couple of Swedish lads who got involved in the Easter Rising. Can't remember where i read about it though.

johnny_doyle

Damian Shiels did a recent article in The Journal re the Finn and Swede at the GPO. Also on his blog page at

http://knowthyplace.wordpress.com/2013/03/31/the-swede-and-finn-who-fought-for-ireland-in-the-gpo-1916/

johnny_doyle

riffmongous wrote: »

Do you have any source on them?

both were the subject of a previous thread on boards.ie which had a few sources referencing them

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055710406

Qualitymark

Thread is a couple of months old, but I just want to correct this "Englishman" and "foreign" trope about Childers, which is not accurate.

Peregrinus wrote: »

Depends on what you mean by "foreign". Erskine Childers and Madame Despard leap at once to mind; they had some Irish ancestry but were basically English by birth, upbrininging and culture.

Well, apart from the fact that he was brought up in Wicklow from the age of six. (He was sent off to boarding school in England later, but always regarded himself as Irish.)

As I understand it, the Bartons (his mother's family, who brought him up) were Wicklow unionist anti-Home-Rulers; Childers and his contemporary Barton cousins, in line with many Irish people of their generation, gradually realised that being part of the British Empire wasn't a great thing for Ireland. In Childers' case this came about first in the Boer War, when he fought on the British side; he was disillusioned by the British-run concentration camps and the dishonourable methods.

He was central to the Howth Gun-Running, his and his wife's boat Asgard being used to bring in around half of the guns from the cargo ship off the coast; the other half had been brought in at Kilcoole by Tom and Laurence Kettle and others the day before, as far as I remember.

He went on to fight (for the British Empire) in the Great War, where he performed bravely and was decorated for his service.

After the war he was struck down by the Spanish Flu that killed millions all over the world.

When he returned to Ireland he was roped in to represent the newly-declared republic at the Paris Peace Conference - a doomed effort at which he did his best, but failed to find a seat at a table full of ambitious countries elbowing for power in the vacuum left by the defeat of Germany and destruction of the Ottoman Empire.

He was elected as a TD in the 1921 Second Dáil, and continued to be called on whenever tricky negotiations were in question. When the negotiators were chosen for Treaty negotiations, Kevin O'Higgins was asked to be secretary; he was about to get married and asked Childers to take his place, which Childers did.

When the split over this treaty happened, Childers took the Republican side. He had been director of publicity for the new State; he continued this work, but now writing for the Republicans.

Free State troops burst into the Barton house, Childers' childhood home, and found Childers there; they said that he came from his bedroom brandishing a pistol, which he cocked, and the housekeeper threw herself in front of him with arms outstretched and said "You won't shoot Mr Childers".

A law had been rushed through some days before that anyone carrying arms could be executed; four boys were killed by firing squads a couple of days before Childers. He was tried in a secret trial - not even his lawyer's name could be known; his lawyer applied for habeus corpus, and while this application was still in process, Childers was executed. He died bravely, after shaking the hands of his firing squad and forgiving them.

Duckworth_Luas

pablomakaveli wrote: »

I remember reading about a couple of Swedish lads who got involved in the Easter Rising. Can't remember where i read about it though.

http://knowthyplace.wordpress.com/2013/03/31/the-swede-and-finn-who-fought-for-ireland-in-the-gpo-1916/

riffmongous

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

http://knowthyplace.wordpress.com/2013/03/31/the-swede-and-finn-who-fought-for-ireland-in-the-gpo-1916/

Brilliant, thanks a lot

stoneill

A few Australians

http://www.awm.gov.au/journal/j39/kildea/

1968

kidneyfan wrote: »

Abraham Weekes and John Neil. English socialists both died in the rising.

I believe Arthur Wicks (aka John Neal) were the same person.

Qualitymark

Oscar Peterson, of course, he of the pipe and tobacco company Kapp and Peterson. He was a Latvian socialist.