Long distance training protocol

Oryx

As I understand it, conventional training wisdom says that when training for longer distances (or any distance really), you do easy base work, and build into higher race paced intensity and longer distance closer to your A race.

However, I know of coaches who turn this on it's head, and train very hard in the early stages. Friel mentions it as an acceptable way for some IM athletes to train.

Does this alternate method only apply to experienced athletes? I'm looking at what seem to be two opposing methods, and Im curious as to how this can be so.

tunney

Oryx wrote: »

As I understand it, conventional training wisdom says that when training for longer distances (or any distance really), you do easy base work, and build into higher race paced intensity and longer distance closer to your A race.

However, I know of coaches who turn this on it's head, and train very hard in the early stages. Friel mentions it as an acceptable way for some IM athletes to train.

Does this alternate method only apply to experienced athletes? I'm looking at what seem to be two opposing methods, and Im curious as to how this can be so.

Periodisation (the former approach you mentioned)
Reverse periodisation (the latter)

Then you can throw both these out (as research indicates you should) and look at year round polarisation training, certainly at the pointy end. Or at least not at the fat slow end

Oryx

Where is best to research polarisation?

tunney

Oryx wrote: »

Where is best to research polarisation?

Lots out there

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23264537

Is all I have in my bookmarks in work

Oryx

By coincidence, this just landed in my inbox

http://triathlete-europe.competitor.com/2012/06/05/do-your-speedwork-now-benefit-later

I actually studied a lot of polarisation technique last year, I just seemed to have missed it being called that. I presume you increase the amount of training incrementally while preserving the high to low ratio?

peter kern

stephen Seiler would have good stuff on polarisation
but to keep it simple you train at all zones all year round
and closer to the race you become more race pace specific.
A while ago there was a good thread on slowtwitch and dessert dude nailed it in a few sentences
and darren smith not long ago nailed it in a tweet ;-)

I guess at the same time you also have to focus on whats your weakness is it speed is it endurance is it strenght if you run 10 k in 40 min and your marathon time is 3.45 h than you now whats misisng if its the other way round that you are a 43 10 k runner but run a sub 3.25 marathon you need to address something else .
as you have 2 v different run limiters. if i was an ironman i d prefer to be the 43 10 k runner .

peter kern

that article to me reads bla bla bla
would be more 10 min steady 7 fast is 3 min really fast ( and the fast 5 k pace or a bit faster x 3 or 4 reps
and a few 12 sec sprints.

anyway so many ways to skin a cat.
you can do fast easy fast easy call it monegetti run if you like

or kenyan runs.

Oryx wrote: »

By coincidence, this just landed in my inbox

http://triathlete-europe.competitor.com/2012/06/05/do-your-speedwork-no
I actually studied a lot of polarisation technique last year, I just seemed to have missed it being called that. i/QUOTE]

Shedite27

peter kern wrote: »

I guess at the same time you also have to focus on whats your weakness is it speed is it endurance is it strenght if you run 10 k in 40 min and your marathon time is 3.45 h than you now whats misisng if its the other way round that you are a 43 10 k runner but run a sub 3.25 marathon you need to address something else .
as you have 2 v different run limiters. if i was an ironman i d prefer to be the 43 10 k runner .

I'm a 40.11PB at the 10k and 3.39 PB at the marathon.

Doing my first ironman this year

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

For those i coach for marathons i use RP. The aim is a 5-10k focus for approx 8 weeks working on LT improvements before heading into a 12/14 week MP phase. The first 8 weeks makes them HTFU for the real marathon work. By the time the marathon specific work rolls around pace/intensity feels more manageable having worked at higher intensity in the initial phase.
The MP phase is more about building frequency/volume and training specifically at PMP and working on AT improvements. Added bonus is that they tick a number of pbs in 5 and 10k along the way to the marathon. I will note that a decent level of fitness is required before taking such an approach otherwise it would lead to injury or breakdown in those first 8 weeks. It can work well for some and not for others.

I would think for someone like you a RP approach for IM could work.

Oryx

Shedite27 wrote: »

I'm a 40.11PB at the 10k and 3.39 PB at the marathon.

Doing my first ironman this year

Were both trying to hit the same times and distances this year, yet my 10k is 43.?? and my marathon is 3.32. The comparisions of what we do should be interesting.

See you in Athy

Shedite27

Oryx wrote: »

Were both trying to hit the same times and distances this year, yet my 10k is 43.?? and my marathon is 3.32. The comparisions of what we do should be interesting.

See you in Athy

Right, so we're the guinea pigs
My other PB's are....
Half Marathon - 1.34
Olympic Tri (Athy) - 2.28
Half Ironman (Skerries) - 5.38

Oryx

Shedite27 wrote: »

Right, so we're the guinea pigs
My other PB's are....
Half Marathon - 1.34
Olympic Tri (Athy) - 2.28
Half Ironman (Skerries) - 5.38

Half marathon - 1.38
Olympic Tri (Athy) 2.43
Half Ironman (Vitruvian) 5.35

My bike sucks, which is probably where the oly difference is. I worked like a dog on it at vitruvian. Ive done one IM, but the time was so bad Im not going to even post it. Im blaming the weather.

Shedite27

Oryx wrote: »

Half marathon - 1.38
Olympic Tri (Athy) 2.43
Half Ironman (Vitruvian) 5.35

My bike sucks, which is probably where the oly difference is. I worked like a dog on it at vitruvian. Ive done one IM, but the time was so bad Im not going to even post it. Im blaming the weather.

Yeah I'm in the same boat. Just using an adapted road bike with clip on bars - can't justify spending the big bucks on a TT bike that will be used 2/3 times a year.

tunney

peter kern wrote: »

stephen Seiler would have good stuff on polarisation
but to keep it simple you train at all zones all year round
and closer to the race you become more race pace specific.

Yeah thats not polarisation. Anyways.....

tunney

Oryx wrote: »

By coincidence, this just landed in my inbox

http://triathlete-europe.competitor.com/2012/06/05/do-your-speedwork-now-benefit-later

I actually studied a lot of polarisation technique last year, I just seemed to have missed it being called that. I presume you increase the amount of training incrementally while preserving the high to low ratio?

I'll fire you an email on my thoughts, which is overdue. I'm well past posting here about anything serious as it always degrades into a farce.

Oryx

tunney wrote: »

I'll fire you an email on my thoughts, which is overdue. I'm well past posting here about anything serious as it always degrades into a farce.

I appreciate that.

SlowMe

tunney wrote: »

I'm well past posting here about anything serious

That's a pity. I for one was looking forward to following an informed discussion on this and hopefully learning something I can apply to my own training

peter kern

tunney wrote: »

Yeah thats not polarisation. Anyways.....

you are of course right.
But it would often be suggested that mix of everything is good
http://www.swimmingscience.net/2013/02/polarized-versus-moderate-training.html
and if you read seiler its not so much the intensity that seperates skier it is the volume the seperates the really good and the world class guys
anyway i understand that you are a bit touchy since lately everybody is picking on you which is not fair since you are always so helpful and polite here. I hope all those bad guys stop teasing you .

Fazz

I'd be interested to know more on the approaches that have worked also.

This is quite new for me, and having done the periodisation approach to most extent I will actually be gearing up for my first IM in somewhat of a reverse periodisation approach.

Not a conscious thing, but that's how the calendar will pan out for me and I'm happy with it.

Whilst I'm still in base/foundation primarily, I do add a bit of intensity each week as I think this is very important, especially on the bike.
Will be adding it to the run shortly also.

The season pans out for a late season peak, with an early season bit of duathlon fun.
I enjoy racing, and will use these as my intensity sessions to some extent.
After the DC in early April, it will be back to volume building for tri an mhi with some 70.3 race specific work in May and June for a couple of races.
Then July and Aug will be back to bigger volume in prep for end of Sept IM.
So:
Nov-Jan - easy, bit of strength and volume (ex bike).
Feb-Mar - adding intensity, but bike still adding volume.
Apr - May - back to volume/Race specific work (70.3/Oly)
Jun - Racing/Recovering
Jul-Aug - Volume, Volume, Strength, IM RP work.
Sep - Finishing touches, taper, IM.

Who knows if it will work, and I will almost certainly change things as they arise.

For example my run feels like it now needs more intensity and variation to keep stimulating progress. This will happen in all disciplines and we are all individual so I think the key is to be flexible in the approach and very much mindful of current performances/fitness perhaps with regular testing if needed.


Well, this is my approach anyway. Will see how it goes for me.

BennyMul

Saw this on slowtwitch,
http://www.canal-insep.fr/fr/training-periodization-deep-root-cultural-heritage-and-innovative-paradigms-2013/ei_13_10_va_pr_stephen_seiler-mov