Ethanol based unleaded petrol

Clancy2014

Hi all,

I drive a 2002 BMW 316I. Up until last week I have always used 95 octane unleaded petrol from a Topaz garage in Dublin. Last week, because of a cheaper price PL at Applegreen, I bought a fill up there. Applegreen's petrol has Ethanol added, and since that fill, I am plagued with power surge issues. If I have been driving for 30 minutes or more, then stop for traffic, the engine is revving up to 4000 rpm on idle. Is this because of the fuel change or am I looking at a different problem?

Any solutions / advice appreciated.

thanks in advance

Clancy

colm_mcm

Any petrol you buy here has 5% ethanol added.

corkgsxr

As above theres a set % by law.

Saying that iv alway found applegreen fuel poor

Chris_Heilong

applegreen may just be adding the Ethanol to a low grade fuel to bring it up to 95 octane.

Matt Simis

No petrol you can buy is "based" on Ethanol.. its got a small percent, usually quoted at 5% but I suspect this isnt set in stone.

You problem might be a clogged fuel filter, water in the fuel or something entirely different (bad MAF and O2s do this).

djimi

It could also just be that the station you bought from had bad petrol or dirty pumps or something. Happened to me before Christmas; filled up at a small station that I wouldnt normally use, car was noticably sluggish. Filled up at my usual place and the car felt a whole lot better.

lomb

I think the applegreen fuel is up to 15% ethanol though whereas standard is 5%.
Fuel economy is poorer on ethanol for everyone as it has less energy in it and older cars loose out again as the maps aren't optimised for it anyway.

unkel

lomb wrote: »

I think the applegreen fuel is up to 15% ethanol though whereas standard is 5%.

Nonsense. Applegreen is 5% like the rest of them.

Applegreen wrote:

All of our petrol is E5, with a mix of 5% ethanol to 95% petrol

Linky

Clancy2014

Hi Folks,

Thanks for all your input. Problem solved with a little research and a chat with BMW.
It seems those brands with cheaper petrol than the main stable of petrol stations, tend to purchase lower grade petrol and bring it up to 95 Octane by adding Ethanol. Their suppliers are not fixed source, wherever they can buy, they do. While it is true to say all petrol has a minimum of 5% Ethanol, the upper limit could be anywhere between 10 and 15%.

I ran the tank down to zero over the past few days and then filled it with Topaz 95 that is guaranteed only 5% ethanol.BMW confirmed that high ethanol content can cause the surges I was experiencing and worse case scenario is that the tank would have had to be cleaned and new injectors added. I must stress that in no way did BMW blame Applegreen or make any negative remark regarding their product. BMW did confirm the issue I was having could be because of high levels of ethanol being present in the fuel running through my car. This may not be an issue for other makes, however it is critical when talking about a BMW /Audi /Ferrari /Porsche Volkswagen engine.

In the States, steps are being taken to withdraw ethanol use as it has no environmental benefit, and the car manufacturers listed above that where there is more than 5% ethanol in the fuel, warranties will be void should a car owner knowingly add such fuel and then tries to claim for any resulting damage.

http://newsroom.aaa.com/tag/bmw/

scroll down a bit on the above link for the info.

Again, thanks for the opinions and I hope the above info helps someone somewhere, should they have the same issue.

No surging today!!!

Cheers

Clancy.

Matt Simis

In fairness Clancy2014 I think you are drawing incorrect conclusions there and would suggest you contact Applegreen directly instead of 3rd parties who have performed no testing at all to back up what they are saying. Having converted a car (an Audi) to run on 85% ethanol and blends in between I can tell you your symptoms dont match up to what actually would happen at 15% blend (basically nothing would happen other than the IDC would increase about 7%, which it could easily do at idle with mountains to spare).

Also its generally understood (unless new info has come to light) that all petrol in the republic is blended at the docks and effectively is all the same, baring dirty fuel and other local contaminants. Who exactly in BMW provided your information?


PS: Blended fuel in the US is not the same as here, they have lower quality, low end fuel (and rated differently, in MON) available to blend Ethanol into, Ireland does not have anything other than 95 Octane RON available.

Clancy2014

Hi Matt,

I am not an engineer or mechanic so I sought professional assistance from both BMW and Applegreen, not 3rd party individuals - don't know where you got that idea from. The fact you have converted a car, is irrelevant to this topic. It is not a BMW, and I am not running gas.

If you understand libel laws, I will not be naming anyone here. I will add the following:

I contacted BMW Ireland, who assigned an engineer to my query who subsequently provided the advice, and it was correct as I have had no issues since.
Applegreen have been given an opportunity to confirm their upper level ethanol content, however at the time of writing this post, they have declined to provide that information, however have taken a report from me and should revert to me shortly.They have also accepted the issue is most likely fuel related.

I will come back with that information if they provide it

Thanks for the inputs here

Clancy

Chimaera

According to the current version of IS EN 228 (the standard governing the specification of petrol in Ireland) up to 10 % v/v ethanol may be added to petrol. Fuel blended in this fashion must be labelled at the pump as a high oxygenate fuel (the recommended marking is "E10") - the RON must also be specified. These fuels are those containing a maximum of 3.7 % m/m oxygen.

It's worth noting at this point that the standard specifies limits on blending of oxygen-containing compounds rather than just specifying ethanol content. The standard lists permissible oxygenates and the maximum levels they can be added at, and also specifies a limit on the mass fraction of oxygen added to the blend due to the individual contributions. Unlike with the diesel standards, there is no minimum requirement for ethanol addition.

Low oxygenate fuels (<2.7 % m/m oxygen) may contain no more than 5 % v/v ethanol and do not need to be labelled as containing oxygenates. They must still meet a minimum RON of 95.

Some things of note in the context of this thread:

Levels of ethanol above 10 % v/v fall outside the scope of this spec and cannot be sold as petrol - they are specific biofuel blends. I don't have the standards to hand for this right now so I can't check specifics.

Ethanol is a known ignition enhancer. The standard specifies a minimum RON for petrol of 95 regardless of the fuel's content. So it's legitimate within the standard to use lower ignition quality petrol and a high level of ethanol to achieve the appropriate RON. High enough blends are required to be marked as noted above. It's also worth noting that the fuel has to meet a bunch of other specifications within the standard too, but I'm not sure if there are any fuel testing labs in this country equipped to test against the standard.

Fuels labelled E5 don't have to have 5 % v/v ethanol - they can use any oxygen containing blending component once the mass fraction of oxygen in the final blend is less than 2.7 %. Ditto E10. So the behaviour of different supplier's blends will depend on what the blending additives are.

bmstuff

Chimaera wrote: »

According to the current version of IS EN 228 (the standard governing the specification of petrol in Ireland) up to 10 % v/v ethanol may be added to petrol. Fuel blended in this fashion must be labelled at the pump as a high oxygenate fuel (the recommended marking is "E10") - the RON must also be specified. These fuels are those containing a maximum of 3.7 % m/m oxygen.

It's worth noting at this point that the standard specifies limits on blending of oxygen-containing compounds rather than just specifying ethanol content. The standard lists permissible oxygenates and the maximum levels they can be added at, and also specifies a limit on the mass fraction of oxygen added to the blend due to the individual contributions. Unlike with the diesel standards, there is no minimum requirement for ethanol addition.

Low oxygenate fuels (<2.7 % m/m oxygen) may contain no more than 5 % v/v ethanol and do not need to be labelled as containing oxygenates. They must still meet a minimum RON of 95.

Some things of note in the context of this thread:

Levels of ethanol above 10 % v/v fall outside the scope of this spec and cannot be sold as petrol - they are specific biofuel blends. I don't have the standards to hand for this right now so I can't check specifics.

Ethanol is a known ignition enhancer. The standard specifies a minimum RON for petrol of 95 regardless of the fuel's content. So it's legitimate within the standard to use lower ignition quality petrol and a high level of ethanol to achieve the appropriate RON. High enough blends are required to be marked as noted above. It's also worth noting that the fuel has to meet a bunch of other specifications within the standard too, but I'm not sure if there are any fuel testing labs in this country equipped to test against the standard.

Fuels labelled E5 don't have to have 5 % v/v ethanol - they can use any oxygen containing blending component once the mass fraction of oxygen in the final blend is less than 2.7 %. Ditto E10. So the behaviour of different supplier's blends will depend on what the blending additives are.

Regardless of the ethanol properties a bmw of that era will run like crap if more than 10% is in the mix.
Many countries such as Brazil where 20 ethanol is the norm have caused issues with older cars and older bmw engines were not designed to run like this.

Chimaera

bmstuff wrote: »

Regardless of the ethanol properties a bmw of that era will run like crap if more than 10% is in the mix.
Many countries such as Brazil where 20 ethanol is the norm have caused issues with older cars and older bmw engines were not designed to run like this.

I never said they would run well on it - I was just outlining the regulatory requirements for the fuel.

If the pumps are labelled properly in the filling station, then it should be easy to avoid E10 for cars that are not suited to it. It may be a big if though, especially in Ireland with our delinquent attitude to regulation generally.

Clancy2014

Hi all,

Yes the critical thing here is a BMW 2002 engine will not run well, hence the power surge. The problem, which lasted almost 2 weeks has ceased once I took the BMW advice and stopped putting that fuel into the tank. Absolutely no issues since, whatsoever.

In relation to the link I gave to the American data, it was specifically targeted at cars such as mine, that being older, are not suited to this particular mix, which must contain more than 5%, otherwise the issue would have not come up.
I can also confirm that while Applegreen state on their website that the fuel contains 5% Ethanol, it does not make this claim at the pumps. None of the pumps refer to ethanol content and furthermore Applegreen refuse to confirm what the upper level is - 10 or 15.

While my car is old, it is looked after, and this matter almost cost me a considerable amount of money for new injectors. Here is a link to my car if interested:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/106612333@N05/sets/72157637839395895/

I look after it simply because I cannot afford not to. It has 62k miles on the clock and is serviced every 5k, and has been since 2005.

Cheers

Clancy.

Chimaera

As I said above they're under no obligation to mark the pumps if the ethanol content is 5 % or less. It's only higher quantities that require marking and 10 % is the legal limit they're allowed add and still sell it as petrol.

cadaliac

Clancy2014 wrote: »

Hi Folks,

............... This may not be an issue for other makes, however it is critical when talking about a BMW /Audi /Ferrari /Porsche Volkswagen engine.

................

Cheers

Clancy.

I lol'ed, sorry...

Nonoperational

Did a BMW engineer look into this for free? Some service for a 2002 316 if they did.

SleeperService

Nonoperational wrote: »

Did a BMW engineer look into this for free? Some service for a 2002 316 if they did.

Quick response too! The op obviously commands respect on the phone!

Clancy2014

Yes it was free, they service my car so it was not an issue, no need for sarcasm lads!!

And Cadaliac, if you had read the content on the weblink I posted, that is the list of manufacturers as per the report in relation to warranties.

It always amazes me how some cannot contribute to a conversation, or a request for assistance without being an ahole as well, grow up lads.

Moderator you can close the thread, I think it has served its purpose.

thanks

Clancy

Nonoperational

Clancy2014 wrote: »

Yes it was free, they service my car so it was not an issue, no need for sarcasm lads!!

And Cadaliac, if you had read the content on the weblink I posted, that is the list of manufacturers as per the report in relation to warranties.

It always amazes me how some cannot contribute to a conversation, or a request for assistance without being an ahole as well, grow up lads.

Moderator you can close the thread, I think it has served its purpose.

thanks

Clancy

I wasn't really being sarcastic. It is good service.

Stavros Murphy

That's a damn clean 2002 BMW too. As it happens.

Matt Simis

Clancy2014 wrote: »

Hi Matt,

I am not an engineer or mechanic so I sought professional assistance from both BMW and Applegreen, not 3rd party individuals - don't know where you got that idea from. The fact you have converted a car, is irrelevant to this topic. It is not a BMW, and I am not running gas.

Not sure what you mean about "not running gas"..? FWIW I also ran older and far unusual BMWs (850CSi V12, 530i M54 3.0 and a some other one cant recall) on different blends of ethanol. Im not an engineer either but I do understand calorific density, Air:Fuel stoich and its measurement and subsequent attempts at auto correction via IDC adjustment, built into the ECU. From what you have posted you are relaying info with an unquestioning faith in its accuracy and but no personal understanding of it. I also would consider BMW a 3rd party do the question on what is in Applegreens fuel.. again did they even inspect your car or the fuel? If not then their opinion is just an opinion, not a fact. A code reader would be able to read Fuel trim info which would have clarified this rather easily without all the emails.

I dont want a name of this BMW "engineer" I'm just trying to clarify their job title and position. In my experience car manufactures a) will re-quote their legal get out clauses at any opportunity. If there is a chance its someone elses fault (in this case fuel blending %) then auto-magically that's absolutely what happened and b) a Service manager in a dealership is not in a position to make such statements with any sense of knowledge.

Funny you mention libel yet have no problem suggesting Applegreen are selling fuel with illegal blends causing harm to cars, yet have nothing at all to actually back this up other than your one car and one incident. Consider how many other people shop there with much, much more particular engines than your rather normal and easy going one.