DART punctuality - why is it so bad?

N64

Between college and work, I use the DART every day and I am just wondering why the punctuality of the trains are so bad? . I've been cutting it very close when it comes to reaching college on time for the past few months because instead of the train arriving it's timetabled slot, it always seems to arrive between 5 - 10 minutes late. I've never seen it arrive at it's scheduled time (bar once or twice) The time remaining (on the real time information displays) always seems to get stuck.

I can understand why in Autumn , the trains were delayed (wheel slip) but now, where it isn't an issue anymore - why do the trains still run constantly late? I mainly use the service at off peak times, so It's not due to congestion I'd reckon

devnull

The 8.39 Dart to Howth from Connolly is always at least 6-7 minutes late and see the other thread, lately those real time displays have been out in the other direction for me!

corktina

Quite honestly, if you think almost all Darts are a few minutes late, you should take one a few minutes earlier to ensure you arrive at college on time. It's not as if you have three services a day like we have!

carlmango11

corktina wrote: »

Quite honestly, if you think almost all Darts are a few minutes late, you should take one a few minutes earlier to ensure you arrive at college on time. It's not as if you have three services a day like we have!

This isn't an excuse though. I never understand why people try to justify sub-standard service just because a crappier one exists?

bumper234

corktina wrote: »

Quite honestly, if you think almost all Darts are a few minutes late, you should take one a few minutes earlier to ensure you arrive at college on time. It's not as if you have three services a day like we have!

But then why have a timetable? Dublin bus is pretty much the same, I get the 4:05 bus home sometimes but that's if it arrives, If not the next is at 4:30 so a 25 minute wait (rain, sleet, wind?) for the next one.

corktina

carlmango11 wrote: »

This isn't an excuse though. I never understand why people try to justify sub-standard service just because a crappier one exists?

I didn't say it was an excuse, but it is your own responsibility to get to work/college on time and a contingency few minutes should be built into your schedule.

I don't think too many people on here will regard me as an IE apologist!

cdebru

It sounds like an unrealistic timetable to me if everyday it is 5 to 10 minutes late then the real running time is 5 to 10 minutes longer than the timetable says. No real excuse for that kind of sloppy timetabling when you are running on your own rail with only your own traffic. S

The question is why do IE persist with a timetable they can't keep too?

Cool Mo D

The DART is one of the most lackadaisical train services I've ever been on. Most DART trips seem to spend more time stopped at empty platforms with their doors open than actually moving. The approach to Connolly from Clontarf road seems to take an inordinate amount of time - whether or not there's a driver change. And journey times have actually gotten significantly worse since the DART began in the 80's.

kryptonmight

I took the Dart a few times recently and found it frustrating due to the "leaves on the line" issue. I also found it bizarre that the schedule had something like a 12 minute gap between south bound darts at times during peak hours.

TheDoctor

Don't get me started, get the 8.36 Dart from Blackrock to Connolly. It is due to arrive in Connolly at 8.54 but in the year and a bit I have used it, it has never been in before 8.56.

In the run up to Christmas, the "unexpected rail conditions" aka leaves falling off trees in the autumn, resulted in a record late arrival of 9.12 and consistant arrival of the 8.54 betwenn 9.05 and 9.10.

Another issue that in the middle or rush hour commute, that there is no DART between 8.24 and 8.36.

TheDoctor

Just to note that it's current board is advertising for my trip that 75% of trains for a 18-20 minute journey arrive no more than 5 minutes (so a quarter of the trip) late.

corktina

TheDoctor wrote: »

Don't get me started, get the 8.36 Dart from Blackrock to Connolly. It is due to arrive in Connolly at 8.54 but in the year and a bit I have used it, it has never been in before 8.56.

In the run up to Christmas, the "unexpected rail conditions" aka leaves falling off trees in the autumn, resulted in a record late arrival of 9.12 and consistant arrival of the 8.54 betwenn 9.05 and 9.10.

Another issue that in the middle or rush hour commute, that there is no DART between 8.24 and 8.36.

omg, a 12 minute wait.... (we have just three buses a day and two of them you'd have to change buses to get to Cork City

TheDoctor

Always funny to hear people who don't have a clue comment

corktina

not having a clue? Twas you who moaned about a train being 2 minutes late! :-)

TheDoctor

It was a complaint about the liberal nature of the timetables

2 minutes late is a very good day

Johnnio13

this has been annoying me for years.
The IR website is now showing +1/2/3 depending on how late the train is going to be. Before the southbound dart leaves Howth there is +1 added to Bayside and Raheny. But the train won't arrive in Clontarf at the advertised time +1 - it will more likely be 4/5mins late. They are trying to cover their stats which are a load of bollix. 96% of trains arriving on time...

Also, the rush hour thing, trains time are ridiculous. Between Grand Canal and Clontarf is the majority of rush hour commuters. But there are gaps of 20mins between trains leading to massive over crowding between these stations and subsequently on commuter lines.

rant over.

TheDoctor

Ah yes the +1/+2/+3 etc on the app

Don't get me started

AngryLips

carlmango11 wrote: »

This isn't an excuse though. I never understand why people try to justify sub-standard service just because a crappier one exists?

I think the train is only officially considered late, according to IE statistics, if it is running at least ten minutes behind schedule.

Johnnio13

Standing in clontarf waiting for the advertised 17.06 dart only to see the platform time is 14 mins later than the website. No change to website though. Wonder are the punctuality stats being pulled from website?

Cool Mo D

Johnnio13 wrote: »

Standing in clontarf waiting for the advertised 17.06 dart only to see the platform time is 14 mins later than the website. No change to website though. Wonder are the punctuality stats being pulled from website?

The train only counts as late if it's late arriving at its destination. It can be 10 minutes late to every stop en route and still be counted as punctual if it arrives at the last stop close to on time. And the timetables give each train much more time than they need to get from the second last to last stop.

bikeman1

Johnnio13 wrote: »

Standing in clontarf waiting for the advertised 17.06 dart only to see the platform time is 14 mins later than the website. No change to website though. Wonder are the punctuality stats being pulled from website?

According to the train record the 17:06 left at 17:06:54 today? I'm confused at your problem?

That train is usually always on time leaving Clontarf Rd.

Jamie2k9

bikeman1 wrote: »

According to the train record the 17:06 left at 17:06:54 today? I'm confused at your problem?

That train is usually always on time leaving Clontarf Rd.

I think the problem is clear, the OP was a few minutes late and just assumed the 17.06 was late and blamed IE for it.

kryptonmight

Johnnio13 wrote: »

this has been annoying me for years.
The IR website is now showing +1/2/3 depending on how late the train is going to be. Before the southbound dart leaves Howth there is +1 added to Bayside and Raheny. But the train won't arrive in Clontarf at the advertised time +1 - it will more likely be 4/5mins late. They are trying to cover their stats which are a load of bollix. 96% of trains arriving on time...

Also, the rush hour thing, trains time are ridiculous. Between Grand Canal and Clontarf is the majority of rush hour commuters. But there are gaps of 20mins between trains leading to massive over crowding between these stations and subsequently on commuter lines.

rant over.

Why don't they have more frequent services? Is it a lack of drivers and/or trains? Or is it some sort of signalling/network capacity issue? I saw some sort of press release recently saying they were upgrading tracks, and signalling systems etc that means they could run 20 trains an hour. For some reason that didn't sound like a lot, but maybe it is.

Do they still have that scheduled half hour gap between services on a Sunday?

Sam Russell

kryptonmight wrote: »

Why don't they have more frequent services? Is it a lack of drivers and/or trains? Or is it some sort of signalling/network capacity issue? I saw some sort of press release recently saying they were upgrading tracks, and signalling systems etc that means they could run 20 trains an hour. For some reason that didn't sound like a lot, but maybe it is.

Do they still have that scheduled half hour gap between services on a Sunday?

I've wondered the same myself. They certainly have enough rolling stock, and could recruit more drivers.

It takes about an hour to get from one end of the Dart to the other so a 10 min service 6 trains in each direction, 12 by 8 is 96 coaches. They got 80 coaches at launch in 1983, and as much again later so no shortage. (I dont know the exact numbers, perhaps someone who knows could enlighten us).

As for drivers, there is no shortage of unemployed people so it is a matter of cost and training (if you pardon the pun).

The problem with signalling relates to north of Connolly so that could be the reason other than why should they. They could run some services Connolly to Bray to increase frequency.

20 trains an hour is one every three minutes, so that is a lot.

More frequent trains could mean shorter trains (during off-peak), thus saving the extra cost of running costs at the expense of extra drivers but better service. They could also split trains at, say Dun Laoghaire and Kilbarrack, so they can increasy capacity or frequency. The Kilbarrack split would serve Howth and Malahide, while the DL split would reduce capacity from DL to Bray. Alternatively, a split at Bray would allow the Greystones frequency to increase.

I'm sure IR have thought of all this and have a good reason for not trying it out. I would just like to know if they have.

TheBandicoot

I'm not sure there is demand for that level of service. As it stands the 15 minute off peak service struggles to fill 2 carriages.

This might change in the future as increased Luas connectivity, DART Underground, Metro North and possible BRT helps deliver more passengers onto DART, and hopefully at that stage the excess capacity can be mobilised to deal with the demand.

Sam Russell

More frequent = more passengers.
Faster transit time = more passengers
More reliable service = more passengers
Lower fares = more passengers

And the converse.

Jamie2k9

Sam Russell wrote: »

More frequent = more passengers.
Faster transit time = more passengers
More reliable service = more passengers
Lower fares = more passengers

And the converse.

More Staff = Cost
More Electricity = Cost
More Maintenance = Cost

Having 4 services per hour is more than enough off peak, numbers have never justified the level of service off peak.

There could be some demand at peak times however I think it will be a few years before increased services are justified.

Sam Russell

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

More Staff = Cost
More Electricity = Cost
More Maintenance = Cost

Having 4 services per hour is more than enough off peak, numbers have never justified the level of service off peak.

There could be some demand at peak times however I think it will be a few years before increased services are justified.

Yes, it is all a balance. It needs investigating and it needs experimenting.

Running extra trains only costs more if there are more carriages involved. Same applies to maintenance. Cueerently Dart trains are random lengths during the day - a 2-car followed by an 8 car followed by a 2 car.

Running time needs tightening and the service would improve if this was done.

More staff would be paid for by increased passengers. Luas packs them in with a 7 min service.

Revenue protection needs to be implemnted by more travelling inspectors. Too many people evade fares, and ordinary staff need to be empowered to couteract this.

jasonbourne.cs

I get the 640 from Bray to Grand Canal Dock Monday to Friday its due into GCD at 7:14 , i cant remember the last time it actually arrived at this time .

one morning in December the dart hadn't arrived at 640 and the overhead were showing a further 10 minutes before it arrived in Bray let alone departed , one of other daily commuters asked an employee what was happening , he responded saying " it was a few minutes late "

the commuter looked at him in disbelief and pointed out it was 10 mins not "a few" the Irishrail guy just shrugged and walked off ...... :rolleyes:

Johnnio13

jasonbourne.cs wrote: »

I get the 640 from Bray to Grand Canal Dock Monday to Friday its due into GCD at 7:14 , i cant remember the last time it actually arrived at this time .

one morning in December the dart hadn't arrived at 640 and the overhead were showing a further 10 minutes before it arrived in Bray let alone departed , one of other daily commuters asked an employee what was happening , he responded saying " it was a few minutes late "

the commuter looked at him in disbelief and pointed out it was 10 mins not "a few" the Irishrail guy just shrugged and walked off ...... :rolleyes:

The last 14 days I have had to get the dart. This is day 14 and not one train I've gotten has been on time and today the 16.51 hasn't even bothered showing up and the website is showing it on time. Next train it does say is on time on the website but god only knows. Back on the bike on Monday and can't wait. F@cking IR such balls

Victor

Johnnio13 wrote: »

F@cking IR such balls

Please tone down your language.

Moderator

Banjoxed

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

More Staff = Cost
More Electricity = Cost
More Maintenance = Cost

Having 4 services per hour is more than enough off peak, numbers have never justified the level of service off peak.

There could be some demand at peak times however I think it will be a few years before increased services are justified.

A load of old cobblers. Providing frequent services on Luas proved demand on its corridors. Why should the DART be any different?

Jamie2k9

Banjoxed wrote: »

A load of old cobblers. Providing frequent services on Luas proved demand on its corridors. Why should the DART be any different?

Does it drive enough revenue to cover operating costs, you can't compare DART to Luas both very different. Demand for Luas is very central outside of peak times.

Johnnio13

Victor wrote: »

Please tone down your language.

Moderator

Sorry Victor, frustration at 14 days of ineptitude warrant my outburst. Don't appear to be able to edit my post to remove the language which offends.

Sam Russell

Dart frequency is very important. I was at Greystones the other Saturday, and discovered that the 30 min service on weekdays is an hourly service on Saturdays (a weekday). The place was thronged with folk waiting upto an hour for the train.

If there are three trains a day, then people take the timetable seriously, but if there is a train every 10 mins, they do not bother. So the more frequent the train service, the more likely people are going to travel. Also, the faster the transit time, the more passengers will be willing to travel.

Shorter, more frequent, trains will give a higher usage than the current service. Currently, train length appears to be random.

Strumms

I found when I had to rely on the Dart to get me to Eastpoint in good time ie. a few mins early for work which according to the timetable should never have been an issue.. Well you couldn't rely on it at all. Used to either be late arriving to Tara Street and or if on time would end up stuck in and around Connolly on a go slow or stuck at the platform for an age. Ended up having to get the earlier train which would mean I'd be on time for work but bloody sitting in the canteen 30 minutes before my start time which was never ideal. Dublin Area Rapid transport... Yeah right...

Banjoxed

Strumms wrote: »

I found when I had to rely on the Dart to get me to Eastpoint in good time ie. a few mins early for work which according to the timetable should never have been an issue.. Well you couldn't rely on it at all. Used to either be late arriving to Tara Street and or if on time would end up stuck in and around Connolly on a go slow or stuck at the platform for an age. Ended up having to get the earlier train which would mean I'd be on time for work but bloody sitting in the canteen 30 minutes before my start time which was never ideal. Dublin Area Rapid transport... Yeah right...

Crap intervals are reinforced by the sort of smuggery that insists that crap timetabling is somehow value for money. It plainly isn't.

Copyerselveson

Banjoxed wrote: »

Crap intervals are reinforced by the sort of smuggery that insists that crap timetabling is somehow value for money. It plainly isn't.

The North London line is a heavy rail link that originally ran between Stratford and Richmond at 15 minute intervals throughout the day. Numbers travelling on it went up significantly when Transport for London took the line over and now run trains roughly every seven minutes. The longer trains are far more packed because in my opinion it becomes more like a turn up and go service than before.

Maybe Irish Rail should have a look at how the London Overground service operates and see if they can take any of its ideas on board.

bikeman1

Comparing London with Dublin is like comparing apples with oranges.

The DART frequency suits me quite well, there is a DART at 13/28/43/58 past the hour all day long into town and I don't even have to check the timetable to know that. Just check the time and head to the station for the particular service.

In fact most regular passengers are aware of the clock face times from their station. What you had a few years back was trains at odd times throughout the day with no consistency.

In an ideal world we would have a better frequency but the demand is not there.

Also an 8 car DART I believe carries about 1200 passengers when full compared to a luas of about 250? So 1 8 car dart is over 4 luas trams.

Eoin247

This is all a ploy to get us to use the bike scheme.

I for one can't wait until they finish installing the dublin bikes outside my apartment, won't have to use the dart so much anymore!

On a related topic, anybody know why the barriers in stations are left open so often? It's very easy to get free dart trips considering that there are no inspectors too.

jester77

Cool Mo D wrote: »

The train only counts as late if it's late arriving at its destination. It can be 10 minutes late to every stop en route and still be counted as punctual if it arrives at the last stop close to on time. And the timetables give each train much more time than they need to get from the second last to last stop.

Every stop is a destination and not just the final stop. Not everyone is getting off at the last stop.

goingnowhere

Its 5 minutes not 10 minutes

TheBandicoot

Eoin247 wrote: »

On a related topic, anybody know why the barriers in stations are left open so often? It's very easy to get free dart trips considering that there are no inspectors too.

Usually, to accommodate pass holders, buggies, wheelchairs etc. when the station is unsstaffed. Less often, a technical fault.

Sam Russell

Eoin247 wrote: »

On a related topic, anybody know why the barriers in stations are left open so often? It's very easy to get free dart trips considering that there are no inspectors too.

The barriers are left open when the station is unmanned. This is, I assume, because people with Free Travel Passes cannot buy tickets from the machines and so cannot gain access. Recently, notices have been placed on/near the barriers warning passengers that they are entering a compulsory ticket area and will suffer dire consequences if they do not possess a ticket - still no inspectors though.

I understand a new regime will begin in April (2014).

Dravokivich

goingnowhere wrote: »

Its 5 minutes not 10 minutes

Their posters for punctuality at stations and on trains state it's measured against trains later than 10 minutes.

Where did you get the 5 minutes?

decisions

Dravokivich wrote: »

Their posters for punctuality at stations and on trains state it's measured against trains later than 10 minutes.

Where did you get the 5 minutes?

The posters in Connolly say 5 min, at least for the dart anyway.

Dravokivich

decisions wrote: »

The posters in Connolly say 5 min.

Seems they'll publish whatever percentage looks better so. Give it a few months and I expect we'll see 10 minutes again.

decisions

Dravokivich wrote: »

Seems they'll publish whatever percentage looks better so. Give it a few months and I expect we'll see 10 minutes again.

Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest. I get the dart to Connolly and then the train out to Maynooth and if the dart is 10 min late I've gone from being early and able to get the 8.00 to Sligo to sprinting around to platform 7 for the 8.08.

LXFlyer

Punctuality/Reliability statistics are here:

http://www.irishrail.ie/about-us/train-performance

From the links on the left you can see the performance for whichever line you want for 2013 and 2012 also.

The performance during the 2013 leaf fall period in particular was chronic on DART, even compared with 2012.

DART performance is measured within 5 minutes, Intercity/Commuter is measured within 10 minutes. Those times are measured at the end of each trip.