improving breathing for distance runners?

tomdempsey200

any specific techniques or exercises people are using to improve breathing while running

and care to share
thanks

drquirky

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

any specific techniques or exercises people are using to improve breathing while running

and care to share
thanks

The fitter you get, the better your breathing will be. Pretty simple.

tomdempsey200

drquirky wrote: »

The fitter you get, the better your breathing will be. Pretty simple.

there's a little more to it than that..
for people who are not breathing correctly while running

drquirky

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

there's a little more to it than that..
for people who are not breathing correctly while running

Really? It amazes me how much people over complicate stuff. In with the nose, out with the mouth. Running, like breathing is a normal human activity, something we've evolved to do. The notion that we need to somehow re-learn how to breath in order to run well is frankly ridiculous. Like I said- train harder, get fitter and you won't huff and puff while running. There are NO easy solutions towards becoming a better runner- you just need to train harder.

Sorry to be so blunt but this kind of question really sets me off- and every year, around the New Year we get these kind of queries. It's nothing personal towards you TD.

tomdempsey200

drquirky wrote: »

In with the nose, out with the mouth.

actually no...

but keep posting

tomdempsey200

Professor Alison McConnell, a respiratory physiologist at Brunel University and author of Breathe Strong, Perform Better. And that means breathing through the mouth. "The mouth offers the path of least resistance," she explains. "The idea that you should try to breathe only through your nostrils, which have a high resistance, during exertion is nonsense."
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/the-running-blog/2013/aug/14/inhale-breathing-runners-oxygen

maybe you know better?

SeaDaily

drquirky wrote: »

Really? It amazes me how much people over complicate stuff. In with the nose, out with the mouth. Running, like breathing is a normal human activity, something we've evolved to do. The notion that we need to somehow re-learn how to breath in order to run well is frankly ridiculous. Like I said- train harder, get fitter and you won't huff and puff while running. There are NO easy solutions towards becoming a better runner- you just need to train harder.

Sorry to be so blunt but this kind of question really sets me off- and every year, around the New Year we get these kind of queries. It's nothing personal towards you TD.

I'd have to disagree with you. Learning to breathe properly while running is really important and all elite athletes will have been taught how to at some point in their running career. If implemented correctly, good breathing practices can really aid the runner.

Here's an article on the subject:
http://www.runnersworld.com/running-tips/lung-power?page=single

SeaDaily

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

Professor Alison McConnell, a respiratory physiologist at Brunel University and author of Breathe Strong, Perform Better. And that means breathing through the mouth. "The mouth offers the path of least resistance," she explains. "The idea that you should try to breathe only through your nostrils, which have a high resistance, during exertion is nonsense."
http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/the-running-blog/2013/aug/14/inhale-breathing-runners-oxygen

maybe you know better?

In fairness you can't just link to an article in the guardian where someone says you should breathe through the mouth and treat that as if it's gospel. Many other doctors would disagree with this.

RayCun

SeaDaily wrote: »

all elite athletes will have been taught how to [breathe] at some point in their running career.

really? cite?

SeaDaily

RayCun wrote: »

really? cite?

No, I'm not going to cite, I know this from experience.

drquirky

SeaDaily wrote: »

I'd have to disagree with you. Learning to breathe properly while running is really important and all elite athletes will have been taught how to at some point in their running career. If implemented correctly, good breathing practices can really aid the runner.

Here's an article on the subject:
http://www.runnersworld.com/running-tips/lung-power?page=single

Ha! lol at using Jogger's World as a source for anything involving elite athletics.

drquirky

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

actually no...

but keep posting

If you know so much about it then why did you bother posting a question?

drquirky

SeaDaily wrote: »

No, I'm not going to cite, I know this from experience.

Good to see Galen Rupp posting on boards.

tomdempsey200

jeez guys I'm looking for advice from someone that has a clue like

there's 'experts' like Dr quirky chiming in telling me to breathe through the nose!

menoscemo

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

jeez guys I'm looking for advice from someone that has a clue like

there's 'experts' like Dr quirky chiming in telling me to breathe through the nose!

You breathe out of necessity. It's an automatic response to your body's need to use oxygen. It's an unconscious bodily function, you even breathe when asleep .

If you are pushing hard (running fast) you will automatically need to breathe more as your muscles need more oxygen; you don't have a choice in this. If you want to breathe less simply run slower or get fitter.

rambutman

Aren't you suppose to try and breathe deep into your diaphragm..............and then this drops your shoulders, making them more relaxed and improving your running technique?

SeaDaily

menoscemo wrote: »

You breathe out of necessity. It's an automatic response to your body's need to use oxygen. It's an unconscious bodily function, you even breathe when asleep .

If you are pushing hard (running fast) you will automatically need to breathe more as your muscles need more oxygen; you don't have a choice in this. If you want to breathe less simply run slower or get fitter.

This simply isn't correct. There are breathing techniques that can be implemented which will aid your overall running. It definitely not a case of just breathe however you want. Have any of you ever received any coaching in relation to running? If not you have no place posting here. You are probably part of the brigade that believes there is no wrong way to run...

menoscemo

SeaDaily wrote: »

It definitely not a case of just breathe however you want.

I never mentioned breathing how you want, I mentioned breathing how you need.

SeaDaily wrote: »

Have any of you ever received any coaching in relation to running? If not you have no place posting here. You are probably part of the brigade that believes there is no wrong way to run...

I have recevied plenty of coaching in relation to running, from club coaches giving me useful tips like telling me how to keep shoulders/arms/hands relaxed to doing a 2 day injury prevention running technique workshop. I have never heard breathing techniques being mentioned to me or any other runners. The only time I have heard of breathing tips is in relation to getting rid of a stitch midrace...

SeaDaily

menoscemo wrote: »

I have recevied plenty of coaching in relation to running, from club coaches giving me useful tips like telling me how to keep shoulders/arms/hands relaxed to doing a 2 day injury prevention running technique workshop. I have never heard breathing techniques being mentioned to me or any other runners. The only time I have heard of breathing tips is in relation to getting rid of a stitch midrace...

Right, well you might want to move club so. Not teaching good breathing techniques is a massive oversight. After I learnt how to breathe properly it dramatically improved my performances.

ger664

SeaDaily wrote: »

This simply isn't correct. There are breathing techniques that can be implemented which will aid your overall running. It definitely not a case of just breathe however you want. Have any of you ever received any coaching in relation to running? If not you have no place posting here. You are probably part of the brigade that believes there is no wrong way to run...

That been the case can you enlighten us on these techniques and answer OP question.

tomdempsey200

SeaDaily wrote: »

This simply isn't correct. There are breathing techniques that can be implemented which will aid your overall running...

that's what I was enquiring about ..

before everybody started chiming in with their half-baked ideas

drquirky

SeaDaily wrote: »

This simply isn't correct. There are breathing techniques that can be implemented which will aid your overall running. It definitely not a case of just breathe however you want. Have any of you ever received any coaching in relation to running? If not you have no place posting here. You are probably part of the brigade that believes there is no wrong way to run...

and what is your running background Seadaily? Do tell- can't say I've seen you round these parts very often??

As for whether I've received any coaching in relation to running- I was a fairly average5-7 man on a University team that made nationals in the States and had 2 D3 All Americans as our top guys(including the #2 finisher at XC Nats). My college coach was taught by Jumbo Elliot when he ran under him at Villanova. Suffice to say we were never sat down and taught how to breathe.

SeaDaily

drquirky wrote: »

and what is your running background Seadaily? Do tell- can't say I've seen you round these parts very often??

As for whether I've received any coaching in relation to running- I was a fairly average5-7 man on a University team that made nationals in the States and had 2 D3 All Americans as our top guys(including the #2 finisher at XC Nats). My college coach was taught by Jumbo Elliot when he ran under him at Villanova. Suffice to say we were never sat down and taught how to breathe.

I have trained with multiple people who compete for Ireland on an international level and have been very successful. Although I never was quite at that level I still feel as if I can have my say on the matter.

What I was taught was to concentrate on breathing deeply, down to your stomach while running. The key thing to avoid is shallow breathing as this will significantly hamper your performances over longer distances. Establishing a rhythm and a pattern is also key. 2 seconds in and 2 seconds out is a good guideline for breaths.

drquirky

SeaDaily wrote: »

I have trained with multiple people who compete for Ireland on an international level and have been very successful. Although I never was quite at that level I still feel as if I can have my say on the matter.

Agreed. Of course everyone is entitled to a say - it actually doesn't matter how fast someone was or wasn't. Some of the best coaches I know weren't great runners themselves. The only reason I felt compelled to chime in with my running history is because you stated that only people who've "been coached" should post- I thought that was kinda lame.

SeaDaily

drquirky wrote: »

Agreed. Of course everyone is entitled to a say - it actually doesn't matter how fast someone was or wasn't. Some of the best coaches I know weren't great runners themselves. The only reason I felt compelled to chime in with my running history is because you stated that only people who've "been coached" should post- I thought that was kinda lame.

What I was really saying was that surely only people who have actually tried breathing techniques in conjunction with running should comment on the matter. Fair enough you have never practised breathing techniques but then how can you say whether they do or don't work? I'd encourage you to give them a go before you knock them. As I said, after I began working on my breathing my running and endurance improved greatly.

huskerdu

Lads, do you have any idea how dull this is for the rest of us, and probably the OP.

SeaDaily, your opinion is as valid as anyone elses here. This is an open internet forum, its not for you to dictate who has the right to post here.

ecoli

@tomdempsey - I wouldn't take that article as gospel for the simple reason being is that she is trying to peddle her book so there is an underlying agenda coupled with the research being used to back her claims up is based around too small a sample group.

With regard to breathing I think there are quite a few who have tried this without actually realising it. Under all the coaches I have worked with I have never had one focus on breathing however "stay relaxed" is a term which the majority of us have heard from coaches during races / sessions. I think breathing is a great cue for staying relaxed and know that when I tense up I am to drop the shoulders and focus on slowing down the breathing as a method of remaining relaxed.

I think efficiency of movement and breathing is an important factor with regards running and there are plenty of cues for this but at the end of the day it is very easy to over complicate things, we look to all the supplementary stuff as being paramount but in many cases its like trying to fine tune the engine of a mini to race F1. No matter how much tinkering you do it won't allow you to compete to best of your ability without building up the engine

tomdempsey200

SeaDaily wrote: »

What I was taught was to concentrate on breathing deeply, down to your stomach while running. The key thing to avoid is shallow breathing as this will significantly hamper your performances over longer distances. Establishing a rhythm and a pattern is also key. 2 seconds in and 2 seconds out is a good guideline for breaths.

that's the info I got from googling last nite
and is what I'm enquiring about

SeaDaily

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

that's the info I got from googling last nite
and is what I'm enquiring about

Okay... I'm not sure what else you'd like to hear.

tomdempsey200

SeaDaily wrote: »

Okay... I'm not sure what else you'd like to hear.

training the breathing to improve running?

thats about it.. and thanks

SeaDaily

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

training the breathing to improve running?

thats about it.. and thanks

Well I already gave my 2c. I don't really have anything else to share with you.

ecoli

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

training the breathing to improve running?

thats about it.. and thanks

Are you breathing heavy every run? Do you have any underlying respiratory health issues?

tomdempsey200

ecoli wrote: »

Are you breathing heavy every run? Do you have any underlying respiratory health issues?

no
I start my run on 1/2 mile uphill which prob doesn't help
I also think I've bad technique hence why I posted

ecoli

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

no
I start my run on 1/2 mile uphill which prob doesn't help
I also think I've bad technique hence why I posted

My advice would be to get a lend of a HRM for a few runs just to rule out running your runs too hard/running too long for your current fitness capabilities.

After this is ruled out it will be a case of training yourself to run relaxed so you are expending minimal amount of effort required for particular paces. Unfortunately there is no short cut for this and will just have to actively focus on slowing down your breathing and taking deeper breathes to the point that it becomes habitual rather than a concious action. This (like anything) will take time.

As some have said previously fitness (run specific fitness as opposed to overall, many people believe these to be interchangeable and think of fitness as a generic term but its not) could be the limiting factor.

How long are you running? and what has your average mileage been the past 8 weeks (this should help in getting a better overall picture)

Alot of the previous post's here do offer anecdotal evidence based of their own experiences and as such shouldn't be dismissed without taking on board the possibility of their opinions being the case. By using all the information provided you can help in determining the best course of action for you specifically (there is no definitive right answer, but rather an answer which is right for your specific case)

shamrock55

Im only new to running and have often heard in through the nose out the mouth, however i always breath in and out of both even when not running,so am i doing it wrong, i find breathing while running tough enough at times but i just put that down to fitness, afterall if it was so easy to breath while running we would all be great runners

tomdempsey200

about 3 miles a week atm.. only just started again after long break

and I switched to a sedentary job.. I noticed a big difference in breathing after that

I do mostly cycling and gym

ecoli

shamrock55 wrote: »

Im only new to running and have often heard in through the nose out the mouth, however i always breath in and out of both even when not running,so am i doing it wrong, i find breathing while running tough enough at times but i just put that down to fitness, afterall if it was so easy to breath while running we would all be great runners

I wouldn't worry too much, I am running 16 years and would be the same. The only times I pay any particular attention is when I am digging in for a race/ session and trying to stay relaxed while running fast. Fitness would always be more the concern in my opinion

ecoli

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

about 3 miles a week atm.. only just started again after long break

and I switched to a sedentary job.. I noticed a big difference in breathing after that

I do mostly cycling and gym

In my opinion I would say that fitness is the most influential factor here rather than technique. Also remember that external conditions play a role here and the cold weather could account for a change in the breathing.

Focus on gradually building up the miles while keeping the effort levels pretty low and you should find the breathing improve

pconn062

In terms of running training, 3 miles a week is nothing. For a lot of people on here, it's a warm up for a session. I have to agree with ecoli, it seems like it's a fitness issue. Running is generally much more strenuous on the aerobic system than gym or cycling, and it takes time to feel comfortable breathing while running steadily. Gradually increase your mileage and how often you run and the situation should improve.

Ososlo

I was where you are Tom about 2 years ago. I was obsessed with reading up about how to improve my breathing as it was so bad when I was running. I read somewhere that blowing balloons would help my lung capacity and breathing so actually bought a packet and spent a few weeks blowing balloons a few times a day I was a favourite at kids' birthday parties
It didn't help. I just wasn't very fit.
Only thing that helped was to slow down my running, control my breathing by relaxing, but most of all, simply by running more frequently. Make sure you don't start out your runs too fast, gradually ease into it. Breath whatever way feels natural for you.

tomdempsey200

Ososlo wrote: »

I was where you are Tom about 2 years ago. I was obsessed with reading up about how to improve my breathing as it was so bad when I was running. I read somewhere that blowing balloons would help my lung capacity and breathing so actually bought a packet and spent a few weeks blowing balloons a few times a day I was a favourite at kids' birthday parties
It didn't help. I just wasn't very fit.
Only thing that helped was to slow down my running, control my breathing by relaxing, but most of all, simply by running more frequently. Make sure you don't start out your runs too fast, gradually ease into it. Breath whatever way feels natural for you.

i do run fairly fast ..bout 6 min mile pace and start uphill
and im old
thats prob the cause of it

Krusty_Clown

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

i do run fairly fast ..bout 6 min mile pace and start uphill
and im old
thats prob the cause of it

You should forget about 6 minute miles and find yourself a couch to 5k program or some kind of beginner 10k program. The reason you are struggling to breathe is because you are running faster than your current capability. I don't know how to say this without being blunt, but your training regime is pointless and counter-productive.

Now that we've got the tough love out of the way, the fact that you can run 6 minute miles suggests that you have good potential and should be capable of good times, once you sort out your training. Don't waste that potential.

Burgman

How does any person know that they are utilising their lungs most efficiently?
I believe that most people do not use their lungs as effectively as they could.

I bought a book from Human Kinetics a couple of years ago - "Programmed to Run - a biomechanical and psychological system for peak running efficiency" by Thomas S. Miller. It's a fascinating book and I would recommend it.

Based on his research, Miller believes that that you (a) need to focus on your breathing; (b) should exhale in patterns that co-incide with foot strikes; (c) should puff your cheeks and purse your lips before exhaling. All of this forces the lungs to empty all of the "old" air and carbon dioxide - and makes it easier for "new" air to be absorbed more easily.

I worked on that and it has become a habit. I believe that it has enabled me to beat fitter people/better runners in races. Everyone should give some thought to their breathing and try to improve it. Forceful exhales and quiet inhales.

My perception is that, unfortunately, most runners and possibly coaches, give no thought to breathing efficiency. Another poster said: "I have received plenty of coaching in relation to running, from club coaches giving me useful tips ..... I have never heard breathing techniques being mentioned".

So the OP's question was not such a silly one.

By the way, somewhat off-topic, there is a great chapter in the above book about stride mechanics that also helped to improve my running efficiency.

tomdempsey200

that was what I read
focus on the rhythm of the breathing

bellybreathe and exhale completely and avoid short breaths

And get into that rhythm while warming up

plodder

I think a lot of novices overlook the fact that your lungs are driven by muscles eg the diaphragm. And just like every other muscle involved in running, they need to adapt to the stresses of exercise. The main way to do that is through training, rather than adopting special breathing techniques imo.

pauliemck

It seems Burgman got there before me - a lot of the advice that I would have had is similar to his. While running I tend to breathe in (through the mouth) for two steps and out for two steps. Focusing on this helps to maintain deeper and more regular breaths when fatigue starts to set in, and getting into the habit while doing an easy run makes it second nature during that last 500 m of a 5k, when breathing is the last thing you're thinking about.

I have heard that pursing your lips while exhaling to cause some back-pressure in the lungs is a good idea. I can't remember the reason for this, but I remember it seemed to make sense to me at the time. I guess it would strengthen the diaphragm at least. Perhaps as Burgman says, it would help to get rid of more CO2-laden air, or perhaps the increased pressure in the lungs would increase the absorption of oxygen. I find that I tend to do this every second exhale, as does my brother strangely enough.

Keeping your shoulders back with forearms pointing in the direction that you're moving, and keeping your upper body vertical helps to open up your chest, increasing lung capacity and allowing for deeper breaths.

A lot of people on the forum are questioning the point of focusing on breathing. For most people, it isn't something that they need to concentrate on, and their body automatically adopts an efficient breathing pattern while running. However, there are others (I am friends with one or two people like this) who tend to take abysmally shallow breaths while running. This will increase the amount of CO2 in the lungs, thus decreasing the amount of oxygen being carried by red blood cells. This causes the heart to beat faster to try to deliver more oxygen to the muscles. It also decreases the oxygenation of lactate in the muscles which will cause that burning sensation in the legs that we all know so well.

In conclusion, breathing is important and there are probably ways for most of us to improve our breathing. Unless we're doing it terribly, there are more gains to be made by changing running technique or simply by training more.

PVincent

Interesting invention showcased on late late tonight by a 77 yr old who can run 400 m in 73secs... Also featured Geraldine Finnegan , who was a good athlete and still does Masters stuff. The invention was to do with getting more oxygen into the lungs quicker and was invented by this 77yr old because he has asthma. He took up running to lose weight 8 yrs ago

benji2012

what would be the name of that device

tomdempsey200

benji2012 wrote: »

what would be the name of that device

ventolin?

Pherekydes

benji2012 wrote: »

what would be the name of that device

^^^^^:rolleyes:


Powerbreathe

tomdempsey200

http://www.amazon.co.uk/ULTRABREATHE-breathing-exerciser-adjustable-resistance/dp/B007CI0ZBC/ref=cm_cr_pr_pb_t

I'm gonna get a cheaper version like this.
I'll report back when I've used it