The beautiful game

old hippy

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/25661228

Good on you, Mr Hitzlsperger.

"I don't know if football is such a homophobic environment," he said. "People just speculate this would be the case.
"Since we haven't seen a gay footballer in the Premier League or the Bundesliga, it's hard to say that this would happen. We would have to wait and see.
"I didn't really know what to expect now. I just decided it was the right moment for me to do this and not really thinking about the reaction.
"Gay football players are invisible. There are none we know of and that's why I don't know how people will react to it."

Would there be much furore if players started coming out? How homophobic is football?

pundy

i'd assume that it's more the football fans that would give most of the flack?

imagine being chanted at by 1000's of people in a stadium with some horribly insulting ironic use of a pop song, or inventing a song just for him/them...

anncoates

You just know there will be a Sun headline with Bum-desliga in it.

Czarcasm

old hippy wrote: »

Would there be much furore if players started coming out? How homophobic is football?

Please kindly tell me what a person's sexuality has to do with their ability to do their job as a professional soccer player. What bearing has his sexuality on his ability to play soccer?

I'll wager the answer is "none". That's why you don't hear more professional soccer players talk about their sexuality, because it's not important. What IS important is their ball skills on the pitch, not their ball skills in the bedroom.

Artful_Badger

Its not football thats homophobic its people. Just as people dont come out when playing soccer they dont come out playing or doing anything else. Because despite people thinking they are ok with it they still perpetuate the idea that there is something wrong with it.

Sit in a school, college, pub, cafe for any length of time and you will more than likely hear the use of the words queer and ******. And the word gay being used in a negative way.

I'd imagine sport is no different with those things said routinely too. So it would be hard for people to come out as openly gay anyway let alone when in the spotlight as professional footballer/sports person knowing a big deal would be made out of it

Jester252

Even stright players have to deal with homophobic abuse from fans and other players

anncoates

Czarcasm wrote: »

Please kindly tell me what a person's sexuality has to do with their ability to do their job as a professional soccer player. What bearing has his sexuality on his ability to play soccer?

Can see both sides.

It's not relevant to their job but it would do a lot to address homophobia if sporting icons said that they're gay.

That also said, football shouldn't be singled out as there must be thousands of different workplaces where people are not going to broadcast their sexuality and it's a matter for the person involved to decide without any pressure to 'do the right thing'.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

old hippy wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/25661228

Good on you, Mr Hitzlsperger.

"I don't know if football is such a homophobic environment," he said. "People just speculate this would be the case.
"Since we haven't seen a gay footballer in the Premier League or the Bundesliga, it's hard to say that this would happen. We would have to wait and see.
"I didn't really know what to expect now. I just decided it was the right moment for me to do this and not really thinking about the reaction.
"Gay football players are invisible. There are none we know of and that's why I don't know how people will react to it."

Would there be much furore if players started coming out? How homophobic is football?

Homophobic enough that the only ever high profile footballer who came out while still playing killed himself.

I don't know if it will change any time soon.

Donal Óg Cusack came out and got huge support. Different sport though.

Will have to wait and see.

kneemos

Thought they were all gay.

FTA69

Czarcasm wrote: »

Please kindly tell me what a person's sexuality has to do with their ability to do their job as a professional soccer player. What bearing has his sexuality on his ability to play soccer?

I'll wager the answer is "none". That's why you don't hear more professional soccer players talk about their sexuality, because it's not important. What IS important is their ball skills on the pitch, not their ball skills in the bedroom.

Yeah. Tell that to Justin Fashanu who killed himself over the abuse he got after he came out.

The reason that most people don't come out is because they fear they will become targets for physical and emotional abuse as well as be ostracised by their friends and family; they don't stay in the closet because it isn't relevant.

Nobody should have to cover up who they are or pretend they're something they're not because of fear; and that's exactly what's at work in professional soccer today.

old hippy

pundy wrote: »

i'd assume that it's more the football fans that would give most of the flack?

imagine being chanted at by 1000's of people in a stadium with some horribly insulting ironic use of a pop song, or inventing a song just for him/them...

I've heard of that happening - I just can't understand the mentality.

Czarcasm wrote: »

Please kindly tell me what a person's sexuality has to do with their ability to do their job as a professional soccer player. What bearing has his sexuality on his ability to play soccer?

I'll wager the answer is "none". That's why you don't hear more professional soccer players talk about their sexuality, because it's not important. What IS important is their ball skills on the pitch, not their ball skills in the bedroom.

I think if more came out, they would be seen as role models and being gay would hopefully become less a thing of ridicule.

Svlad Cjelli wrote: »

Its not football thats homophobic its people. Just as people dont come out when playing soccer they dont come out playing or doing anything else. Because despite people thinking they are ok with it they still perpetuate the idea that there is something wrong with it.

Sit in a school, college, pub, cafe for any length of time and you will more than likely hear the use of the words queer and ******. And the word gay being used in a negative way.

I'd imagine sport is no different with those things said routinely too. So it would be hard for people to come out as openly gay anyway let alone when in the spotlight as professional footballer/sports person knowing a big deal would be made out of it

Oh, for sure. I hear it every day - I've come out as bi to most people but I know there's a few who would treat me differently - start thinking I fancied them or whatever. I'm like, "dude, I'm married and even if I was thinking of straying you're just not my type"

kneemos wrote: »

Thought they were all gay.

Who, the premiership players? The fans?

Czarcasm

anncoates wrote: »

Can see both sides.

It's not relevant to their job but it would do a lot to address homophobia if sporting icons said that they're gay.

That also said, football shouldn't be singled out as there must be thousands of different workplaces where people are not going to broadcast their sexuality and it's a matter for the person involved to decide without any pressure to 'do the right thing'.

I know SFA about soccer tbh, don't even know the chap being referred to in the OP, but here's the bit old hippy didn't quote, was the guy's own opinion on the subject -

But Hitzlsperger is not certain what the reaction would be.

"I don't know if football is such a homophobic environment," he said. "People just speculate this would be the case.

I know alright there was a big campaign about stamping out racism in soccer and other sports, but when did sports become less about sports and more about raising awareness for issues in society? Sports people are role models, I get that, but they should be role models for their achievements, not for attributes they had absolutely no choice in!

As you quite rightly point out, this sort of media attention just because one person decides it's right for them, doesn't mean that it's the right decision for anybody to make a point of their sexuality just to stand out in their chosen profession, especially when it's really not relevant in consideration of their achievements within that profession.

old hippy

Czarcasm wrote: »

I know SFA about soccer tbh, don't even know the chap being referred to in the OP, but here's the bit old hippy didn't quote, was the guy's own opinion on the subject -

But Hitzlsperger is not certain what the reaction would be.

"I don't know if football is such a homophobic environment," he said. "People just speculate this would be the case.

I know alright there was a big campaign about stamping out racism in soccer and other sports, but when did sports become less about sports and more about raising awareness for issues in society? Sports people are role models, I get that, but they should be role models for their achievements, not for attributes they had absolutely no choice in!

As you quite rightly point out, this sort of media attention just because one person decides it's right for them, doesn't mean that it's the right decision for anybody to make a point of their sexuality just to stand out in their chosen profession, especially when it's really not relevant in consideration of their achievements within that profession.

Erm, I did quote it. Think you need to look at my post again :rolleyes:

By coming out in such a macho sport which has millions of followers, it makes gay a bit more acceptable or "normal" to the masses. It might make people think for a moment before acting the cock.

newport2

Jester252 wrote: »

Even stright players have to deal with homophobic abuse from fans and other players

This is the thing. The opposing fans chant terrible things about various players, anything they feel will get to them. So if a homophobic chant starts up, lots of people join in, not because they are necessarily homophobic, but because they want to insult the opposition and if possible, get inside their heads/intimidate them. Players get chanted at about race, sexuality, their families, anything that fans think will get to them and to the oppositions fans.

Not justifying it, that's why I think it happens though. If straight men did not take being called "gay" as an insult, fans would most likely stop chanting it.

Phill Ewinn

The beautiful game? Where did that come from? It isn't ladies beach volleyball.

Tasden

FTA69 wrote: »

Yeah. Tell that to Justin Fashanu who killed himself over the abuse he got after he came out.

The reason that most people don't come out is because they fear they will become targets for physical and emotional abuse as well as be ostracised by their friends and family; they don't stay in the closet because it isn't relevant.

Nobody should have to cover up who they are or pretend they're something they're not because of fear; and that's exactly what's at work in professional soccer today.

Yeah tbh as someone who regularly attends matches some of the abuse aimed at players for any reason at all is quite shocking sometimes. A chant at a player who's wife had died is probably the one that sticks out the most to me and I only read about that, didn't witness it myself.

Actually announcing yourself to be gay and therefore an "easy target" for these chants is a huge deal and unfortunately isn't taken lightly because of the abuse, often shrugged off by everyone as "banter". In other professions you may have to put up with the odd joke or ignorant comment when you decide to come out, maybe even more serious issues but there's procedures in place in cases of bullying or discrimination. In football you have to put up with thousands of fans shouting at you and degrading you with stupid chants about your sexuality/personal life. And that's only one aspect.

newport2

Tasden wrote: »

Yeah tbh as someone who regularly attends matches some of the abuse aimed at players for any reason at all is quite shocking sometimes. A chant at a player who's wife had died is probably the one that sticks out the most to me and I only read about that, didn't witness it myself.

Actually announcing yourself to be gay and therefore an "easy target" for these chants is a huge deal and unfortunately isn't taken lightly because of the abuse, often shrugged off by everyone as "banter". In other professions you may have to put up with the odd joke or ignorant comment when you decide to come out, maybe even more serious issues but there's procedures in place in cases of bullying or discrimination. In football you have to put up with thousands of fans shouting at you and degrading you with stupid chants about your sexuality/personal life. And that's only one aspect.

Having to share a locker room/showers with a load of male colleagues nearly every day in your job probably makes it more difficult again for a footballer to come out than someone in another profession.

Czarcasm

FTA69 wrote: »

Yeah. Tell that to Justin Fashanu who killed himself over the abuse he got after he came out.

You can see how I might run into difficulty there?

And that's not strictly true either, given that his suicide was over seven years later after he came out, and the fact that he was due to stand trial in the US for assaulting a teenager -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/167715.stm

The reason that most people don't come out is because they fear they will become targets for physical and emotional abuse as well as be ostracised by their friends and family; they don't stay in the closet because it isn't relevant.

The question old hippy asked was would there be much furore if players (I assume he means soccer players?) came out? How homophobic is football?

Therefore since the question specifically relates to football and footballers, their sexuality isn't relevant. Therefore there's no reason for them to "come out of the closet" as it were. Will the admission that they're gay suddenly make them a more skilful soccer player? Hardly.

Nobody should have to cover up who they are or pretend they're something they're not because of fear; and that's exactly what's at work in professional soccer today.

I'd say what's more at work is the pressure on soccer players to perform when it matters, when they're doing the job they're being paid to do - play soccer. If you ask me, from what soccer I have seen, and from what little I do know of soccer, it seems to be the ref gets the worst of the abuse, from both teams! Seems about the only thing soccer fans agree on - "The referee's a wanker" is apparently a popular chant, but what would I know...

Xavi6

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

Homophobic enough that the only ever high profile footballer who came out while still playing killed himself.

Only ever high profile footballer in England*

Robbie Rogers is a case of someone whose guts to come out has been embraced by the league he plays in and its fans.

kfallon

It was a very brave thing for Hitzlsperger to do to come out and openly admit that he..........played for West Ham!!!

:pac:

Czarcasm

old hippy wrote: »

Erm, I did quote it. Think you need to look at my post again :rolleyes:

Yeah sorry hippy, just re-read there again

old hippy wrote: »

I think if more came out, they would be seen as role models and being gay would hopefully become less a thing of ridicule.

Role models for what though? Being gay? Would you not think that if you want to normalise something that you wouldn't make a point of it? That you would be recognised for your achievements and that your sexuality wouldn't be relevant? How many people do you think admire a soccer player for their ability rather than their sexuality?

old hippy wrote: »

By coming out in such a macho sport which has millions of followers, it makes gay a bit more acceptable or "normal" to the masses. It might make people think for a moment before acting the cock.

I don't agree that it does anything tbh, especially when I wouldn't consider soccer a macho sport in any sort of context! If anything all it does is put a spotlight on a person and gives people something else to ridicule them about, rather than something NOT to ridicule them about. I don't think being gay will ever be acceptable to masses of people who will look for any excuse to belittle someone else, and certainly the only reason they'll think for a moment is only to come up with an insult that uses that person's sexuality.

pundy

old hippy wrote: »

I've heard of that happening - I just can't understand the mentality.



I think if more came out, they would be seen as role models and being gay would hopefully become less a thing of ridicule.



Oh, for sure. I hear it every day - I've come out as bi to most people but I know there's a few who would treat me differently - start thinking I fancied them or whatever. I'm like, "dude, I'm married and even if I was thinking of straying you're just not my type"



Who, the premiership players? The fans?

i agree that it would probably help lower the feeling or idea that you will be stigmatised for being gay if more people in the public eye "came out" - BUT, i think in reality, for anyone who has to come out as gay or bi, or whatever, i think it's going to be tough, regardless of what it says in the media.

people will still be terrified of losing their friends and family - who are normal people and arent superstar footballers, so to them it's just going to be terrifying anyway, so it wouldnt matter if the media present it as being normal and ok. it's not normal and ok to the person coming out. (until they actually do)

- i think anyway

Tasden

Czarcasm wrote: »

The question old hippy asked was would there be much furore if players (I assume he means soccer players?) came out? How homophobic is football?

Therefore since the question specifically relates to football and footballers, their sexuality isn't relevant. Therefore there's no reason for them to "come out of the closet" as it were. Will the admission that they're gay suddenly make them a more skilful soccer player? Hardly.

...

Well in an ideal world sexuality wouldn't be an issue and we could all be free to love whoever we want without people passing judgement and if someone was to say they were gay everyone would shrug and say yeah so what, but we don't live in an ideal world and sexuality is still labelled and discussed/questioned, and people do feel that if they don't come out that they are keeping it secret or lying. It should be irrelevant to his performance as a player and the profession in general, but we all know that its not. And that's why people are commending him for it because he's bringing it out in the open and "normalizing" it.

burnhardlanger

anncoates wrote: »

You just know there will be a Sun headline with Bum-desliga in it.

SUPER HOMOPHOBIC!
ARSENAL FANS ATROCIOUS!

DebDynamite

Czarcasm wrote: »

And that's not strictly true either, given that his suicide was over seven years later after he came out, and the fact that he was due to stand trial in the US for assaulting a teenager -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/167715.stm

The question old hippy asked was would there be much furore if players (I assume he means soccer players?) came out? How homophobic is football?

Brian Clough, one of Fashnu's managers gave him abuse for visiting gay clubs. Apparently, once he discovered Fashnu was gay, he banned him from training before being sold on.

Then again, Brian Clough was a bit of a headcase!

burnhardlanger

You're dealing with a lot of football fans who on the one hand will scream vitriol at an opposition player yet will cheer and applaud that same player if he was playing for their country.

old hippy

Czarcasm wrote: »

Yeah sorry hippy, just re-read there again





Role models for what though? Being gay? Would you not think that if you want to normalise something that you wouldn't make a point of it? That you would be recognised for your achievements and that your sexuality wouldn't be relevant? How many people do you think admire a soccer player for their ability rather than their sexuality?




I don't agree that it does anything tbh, especially when I wouldn't consider soccer a macho sport in any sort of context! If anything all it does is put a spotlight on a person and gives people something else to ridicule them about, rather than something NOT to ridicule them about. I don't think being gay will ever be acceptable to masses of people who will look for any excuse to belittle someone else, and certainly the only reason they'll think for a moment is only to come up with an insult that uses that person's sexuality.

We'll just have to agree to disagree in that case. I'm of the opinion that the more high profile people come out (in any profession) the more acceptable it becomes.

MonaPizza

pundy wrote: »

i'd assume that it's more the football fans that would give most of the flack?

imagine being chanted at by 1000's of people in a stadium with some horribly insulting ironic use of a pop song, or inventing a song just for him/them...

Well 1000's of the knuckleheads routinely sang racist chants, made monkey sounds and threw bananas onto the pitch when a black player kicked the ball. It was the done thing until recently. It still happens unfortunately but before it used to be endemic until arrests, prosecutions and bans made the morons think again.
Still could get pretty nasty. Opposition fans used to wish cancer on beckham's family, etc. Pretty sick stuff, so I can't imagine what bile they'd spew at a gay player.

snubbleste

22 grown men chasing each other looking for a feel of a ball

keeponhurling

I'd have absolutely no problem if one of my colleagues was gay, it's their own buasiness.

Although I work in an office, so I don't share a shower with my colleagues every day.

Annasopra

keeponhurling wrote: »

I'd have absolutely no problem if one of my colleagues was gay, it's their own buasiness.

Although I work in an office, so I don't share a shower with my colleagues every day.

ah jaysus don't flatter yourself and think all gay men will hop on you in the shower

Jester252

newport2 wrote: »

This is the thing. The opposing fans chant terrible things about various players, anything they feel will get to them. So if a homophobic chant starts up, lots of people join in, not because they are necessarily homophobic, but because they want to insult the opposition and if possible, get inside their heads/intimidate them. Players get chanted at about race, sexuality, their families, anything that fans think will get to them and to the oppositions fans.

Not justifying it, that's why I think it happens though. If straight men did not take being called "gay" as an insult, fans would most likely stop chanting it.

Homophobic chats are still homophobic, do you honestly think that they will never be aimed at gay players? Also football is plagued with homophobic players and mangers. How can one feel comfortable with who his is when it might cost him his job? Soccer seems to be the only international sport stuck in the middle ages.

price690

Hitzelsberger now seems very content telling everyone he is gay and fair play to him.

He is also intent on encouraging current players to come out and insisting theres nothing to be afraid of.

Why did he have to wait until he was retired himself if this was the case?

old hippy

price690 wrote: »

Hitzelsberger now seems very content telling everyone he is gay and fair play to him.

He is also intent on encouraging current players to come out and insisting theres nothing to be afraid of.

Why did he have to wait until he was retired himself if this was the case?

I'd guess you'd have to ask the man himself, otherwise it's just speculation. Maybe it took being out of that intense scenario and a bit of introspection before he could come out or maybe the papers were going to out him. But as I said, that's just speculation.

biko

I have a dream that one day gay sports people won't even be newsworthy.
He/she is gay, so ****ing what...

Long way to go yet.

snubbleste

Kelly has revealed he is straight. Smith has supported the move by Kelly.

FTA69

Czarcasm wrote: »

And that's not strictly true either, given that his suicide was over seven years later after he came out, and the fact that he was due to stand trial in the US for assaulting a teenager -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/167715.stm

I don't think it's a massive jump to deduce that the amount of vicious abuse the man was subject to ultimately contributed to his suicide. His Wiki page mentions a lot about it.

1) He was routinely abused in front of his team-mates by his own manager, Brian Clough, who roared at him over going to gay clubs. Can you imagine how sh*t that would make a young 21-year old lad feel?

2) The Sun included him in loads of garish and trashy articles about gay sex rings.

3) His own brother disowned him.

4) He was ribbed mercilessly by fans and there's reason to believe the decision strongly affected his career.

The question old hippy asked was would there be much furore if players (I assume he means soccer players?) came out? How homophobic is football?

Well, it's very homophobic if we look at the example of what happened to Fashanu and I wouldn't blame any other young man for being terrified to come out in that context.

I'd say what's more at work is the pressure on soccer players to perform when it matters, when they're doing the job they're being paid to do .

Being in the closet can be very stressful for some people, especially those in a team sport context where people are expected to fulfill a certain image. Having to maintain this pretense and pretend to be someone you're not continuously to avoid ridicule is something that nobody should have to endure.

In other words people should be able to express who they are without fearing abuse and the destruction of their career. You might say it isn't relevant, but it is to those who are afraid to come out. And that's true in any context, not just football.

LOSTfan57

Maybe it was keeping this secret that led to him becoming "The Hammer"!!!! Had to release someway :P



disclaimer: before PC start calling me homophobic its a joke...and if they dont know this was Hitz's nickname due to an absolutely ferocious shot he often did like a bloody cannon.

keeponhurling

mango salsa wrote: »

ah jaysus don't flatter yourself and think all gay men will hop on you in the shower

That's what I tell the girls when I wander into the female changing rooms at my local gym, however it doesn't seem to cut any ice with the management.

For some strange reason they feel uncomfortable with me being there.

Glad we're on the same page here though.

LOSTfan57

American Robbie Rogers is gay and playing though. He came out and retired at Leeds but is now back playing in the MLS again

Oranage2

Is it even such a big deal if a footballer doesn't come out in public? I'm sure the footballers actual friends and family know.

Most footballers want to keep their private life private gay or straight. Also being gay doesn't have any effect on a footballers soccer ability, so coming out publicly wouldn't have any benefits to the guys ability.


Typical op thread

"Oh no, a footballer doesn't want to let the guy in row Z know he's gay, the injustice! "

Czarcasm

FTA69 wrote: »

I don't think it's a massive jump to deduce that the amount of vicious abuse the man was subject to ultimately contributed to his suicide. His Wiki page mentions a lot about it.

1) He was routinely abused in front of his team-mates by his own manager, Brian Clough, who roared at him over going to gay clubs. Can you imagine how sh*t that would make a young 21-year old lad feel?

2) The Sun included him in loads of garish and trashy articles about gay sex rings.

3) His own brother disowned him.

4) He was ribbed mercilessly by fans and there's reason to believe the decision strongly affected his career.

All of the above were merely contributing factors to one person choosing to take their own life, but that's quite a few assumptions away from your earlier almost certain assertion that the only reason one person took their own life was because they were gay. We could speculate all day about the numerous reasons why people take their own lives, but they can't all be just because they were gay. That's merely one convenient explanation that suits your argument.

Well, it's very homophobic if we look at the example of what happened to Fashanu and I wouldn't blame any other young man for being terrified to come out in that context.

ONE person, in how many millions that play football, let alone follow football, and that includes plenty of women too, and they're hardly all macho? What happened to one person was indeed unfortunate, but to use that to suggest the majority of people involved in the sport are homophobic? I'd call that reaching to make a point tbh.

Being in the closet can be very stressful for some people, especially those in a team sport context where people are expected to fulfill a certain image. Having to maintain this pretense and pretend to be someone you're not continuously to avoid ridicule is something that nobody should have to endure.

In other words people should be able to express who they are without fearing abuse and the destruction of their career. You might say it isn't relevant, but it is to those who are afraid to come out. And that's true in any context, not just football.

I completely agree with you in the respect that nobody should be afraid to be who they are, but equally they shouldn't be encouraged to think it sets them apart either, which is what this whole "coming out" nonsense is about. Consider if you will Tom Daly, Olympic diving champion, a role model for any young person due to his achievements in sport. Then he "came out", and now he's Tom Daly, gay celebrity who presents some ****e celebrity diving show on ITV, fcukall for any young person to aspire to. That's what happens when you "come out", your sexuality immediately overshadows everything else about you as a person, including your achievements.


It's like the old "but I shag one sheep" joke.

Tasden

Czarcasm wrote: »

I completely agree with you in the respect that nobody should be afraid to be who they are, but equally they shouldn't be encouraged to think it sets them apart either, which is what this whole "coming out" nonsense is about. Consider if you will Tom Daly, Olympic diving champion, a role model for any young person due to his achievements in sport. Then he "came out", and now he's Tom Daly, gay celebrity who presents some ****e celebrity diving show on ITV, fcukall for any young person to aspire to. That's what happens when you "come out", your sexuality immediately overshadows everything else about you as a person, including your achievements.


It's like the old "but I shag one sheep" joke.

Tom Daly became a "celebrity" way before he came out. He finished the first series of splash before he came out iirc. And the reason he felt he had to come out was because people always asked questions about his personal life (girlfriends etc.) and he felt he was lying when he started a relationship with the man he loves. He even raised that point himself that it shouldn't be relevant and whatnot and he shouldn't have to "come out" but he felt he was deceiving people/himself by not doing so. Which was the point I made earlier, until its "normalised" it will be an issue and coming out will be a big deal, but the more (famous/influential) people that come out the more normal it will then become and people won't feel they're keeping a dirty little secret unless they announce it to everyone.
I love tom and everyone else knew but me :pac:

Sleepy

Lets just be honest, it's a working class sport and the proletariat aren't exactly known for being open minded...

Oranage2

Tasden wrote: »

Tom Daly became a "celebrity" way before he came out. He finished the first series of splash before he came out iirc. And the reason he felt he had to come out was because people always asked questions about his personal life (girlfriends etc.) and he felt he was lying when he started a relationship with the man he loves. He even raised that point himself that it shouldn't be relevant and whatnot and he shouldn't have to "come out" but he felt he was deceiving people/himself by not doing so. Which was the point I made earlier, until its "normalised" it will be an issue and coming out will be a big deal, but the more (famous/influential) people that come out the more normal it will then become and people won't feel they're keeping a dirty little secret unless they announce it to everyone.
I love tom and everyone else knew but me :pac:

Or he could have said it to future his career in show biz, who knows though.

Czarcasm

Sleepy wrote: »

Lets just be honest, it's a working class sport and the proletariat aren't exactly known for being open minded...

That's not being very honest, how much are some of the players in the Premiership actually worth? Thousands, millions some of them.

"Sport is the great leveller" is a cliche because it's true. Your rise to the top depends more on your ability than your sexuality.

old hippy

Czarcasm wrote: »

Your rise to the top depends more on your ability than your sexuality.

Fnar, fnar!

chopper6

Sleepy wrote: »

Lets just be honest, it's a working class sport and the proletariat aren't exactly known for being open minded...

Played and watched by idiots.

Annasopra

keeponhurling wrote: »

That's what I tell the girls when I wander into the female changing rooms at my local gym, however it doesn't seem to cut any ice with the management.

For some strange reason they feel uncomfortable with me being there.

Glad we're on the same page here though.

We're not on the same page.

When I goto to the changing room at a gym or swimming pool I go to change. Full Stop.

We've discussed this before

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84102671&postcount=3
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84102790&postcount=15
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84102805&postcount=16
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84104267&postcount=68

old hippy

chopper6 wrote: »

Played and watched by idiots.

I wouldn't go as far as to say that.

old hippy

mango salsa wrote: »

We're not on the same page.

When I goto to the changing room at a gym or swimming pool I go to change. Full Stop.

We've discussed this before

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84102671&postcount=3
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84102790&postcount=15
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84102805&postcount=16
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84104267&postcount=68

Yup, it's the myth that keeps on giving :rolleyes: