Imagine british and Irish league?

stpaddy99

I think the english and welsh clubs could achieve something amazing IF we and the scots and the unios sat around and seriously discussed this british and irish league option. even if its not for 5 years. lets at least discuss it for when current deals expire

forgive me if I dribble at the mouth , but a brit and irish league is something Ive dreamt of my whole life

the heineken is over too quick really 2 defeats and its adios. we need better bread and butter why the unions are so petrified of even discussing an anglo or british and irish league is beyond me. are they that scared of growth and success? a british and irish league would be awesome , everyone wants it?

Imagine 2 tier british irish league , if leinster made the top table, wed probably end up playing far more games at the avviva stadium. Heres a guesstimate over possible crowds? this is just speculation but you get the general picture that the crowds , income, excitement would take irish rugby to a whole new level ...the fixture list could look like...

leinster v


ulster - Christmas derby 49000
wasps 18000 at RDS
cardiff 18000 at RDS
saracens 30,000 at avviva
gloucester 30,000 at avviva
munster 35,000 at avviva
northampton 30,000 at Avviva
ospreys 18000 at RDS
Bath 18000 at RDS
scarlets 17000 at RDS
Harlequins 30,000 at Avviva

european cup
RDS 18500
1 game against top english club at avviva 49000 sell out
1 game against french team at avviva 30,000

overall seasons average could be a sensational 27890
probably the
Can we really afford to ignore this? as we seek to keep our stars , to compete against the french and their money men?

it would also surely help crowds in england wales and scotland too

thomond2006

It puts Italy back in their box though, that's a major problem I'd have with it and I imagine that's a view shared by unions and the IRB. Italy have been getting more competitive thanks to the formation of the two Rabo sides and breaking up those teams back into the Italian Super 10 would be a travesty. I also think there would be a lot more movement of top Irish talent if they are playing in the same sole competition as the Irish provinces.

Other than that it would be pretty cool.

stpaddy99

they should join the french

thomond2006

stpaddy99 wrote: »

they should join the french

As has been said many times on here, the French would never want them. If the French want more sides in their top division they can expand to a Top16. The current leader of the ProD2, Lyon, has a Top14 level budget. All the ProD2 clubs have a significant vote within the LNR and all would vote against any foreign teams joining.

Lucena

stpaddy99 wrote: »

they should join the french

At what level?

The problem is that the French league has actual clubs and promotion/relegation, how would Italian superclubs slot into that ?

its_phil

Absolutely not. Dumping the Italians is not on IMO, even if they dump us first. Governance can not even be agreed upon in the European Cup which takes up nine weekends of the year, and the idea of getting into bed with McCafferty and Wray for 22 weeks makes my skin boil.

LeinsterDub

And when the Irish sides win it too many times ? And where do Connacht go when relegated ?

Larbre34

LeinsterDub wrote: »

And when the Irish sides win it too many times ? And where do Connacht go when relegated ?

Connacht wouldnt be in the First Tier to start with. Theyd probably do better competing with Newcastle, Worcester, Bedford etc to develop, then fight for promotion on merit.

armchaircoach

I think you may have overestimated the attendance for those games. The attendance figure for RDS includes all season tickets and doesn't reflect bums on seats in the stadium, and even so would more normally be around 15000. I can't see wasps or Bath attracting more than that (especially seeing how one sided previous games have been)

Also I really don't see 30000 fans show up to see glouster in the aviva. Why would leinster play a bottom dwelling AP team in the aviva anyway?

Larbre34

Lucena wrote: »

At what level?

The problem is that the French league has actual clubs and promotion/relegation, how would Italian superclubs slot into that ?

They shouldnt. The superclub model has largely failed for similar reasons that the Welsh regions failed to capture the imagination, it is an artificial entity with forced allegiance. The 5 or 6 best traditional Italian clubs could battle with Pro D2 any day, and go from there.

stpaddy99

maybe the lower table in france then.

OldRio

I see the OP has no idea about the contractual obligations Leinster have with the RDS.
Lets guess on attendances and feck the Italians thread. Silly.

thomond2006

stpaddy99 wrote: »

maybe the lower table in france then.

That means you are taking away promotion spots from French clubs in Federale 1 (third division). The clubs would be against it and the FFR would never sanction it.

Like it's phil I'd hate to give Wray and McCafferty what they want. **** the lot of them.

stpaddy99

OldRio wrote: »

I see the OP has no idea about the contractual obligations Leinster have with the RDS.
Lets guess on attendances and feck the Italians thread. Silly.

the italians pay their way in to the rabo, they can do likewise in france

stpaddy99

OldRio wrote: »

I see the OP has no idea about the contractual obligations Leinster have with the RDS.
Lets guess on attendances and feck the Italians thread. Silly.

everythings open to renegotiation especially where millions of punds is involved

thomond2006

stpaddy99 wrote: »

the italians pay their way in to the rabo, they can do likewise in france

The Celtic League were willing to accept them because it wouldn't affect any of its own clubs (no promotion/relegation to and from a second division), the LNR/FFR never would.

everythings open to renegotiation especially where millions of punds is involved

True but where are the Italians going to get those millions? They would have to pay a huge amount of money to the LNR to get a slice of the pie. The Italians would never be allowed into the Top14 and they're not going to pay millions to enter ProD2.

bilston

In theory it's a great idea and it probably will happen some day as there is a lot of money to be made from it. Potentially it could become the most lucrative domestic league on these islands outside the EPL which is obviously in another stratosphere.

There are problems with it.

1) Getting an agreed structure

The Unions would want a conference system and the PRL and RRW would probably want promotion and relegation

2) Governance

The PRL and RRW (if they still existed) wouldn't want much or indeed any Union control of such a competition and to be honest unless the Provinces and Scottish sides start funding themselves independent of the Union this looks like a pretty significant roadblock to get past.

3) The Italian Problem

What happens to them? The IRB wouldn't want to see them dumped. Obviously we have to look after ourselves first but we should also do our best for the Italians, we should be looking at expanding rugby in Europe and incorpoarting the Romanians, Gerogians, Spanish and Russians not abandoning the Italians.

4) What does it mean for Europe?

I don't think this is that big an issue. Assuming the Italians join the Top 14 (a very very big assumption I know) you could just have the top 8 from the B&I League and the top 8 from the Top 14 competing in the tier 1 European competition with a tier 2 and perhaps a tier 3 competition for lower placed sides.

5) Never mind a B&I League, what about a European League?

This might even be the next step, however the Top 14 is so lucrative it's hard to see the appeal of a European League to the smaller Top 14 clubs. Toulouse, Toulon and Clermont etc might see the benefits but some of the smaller sides might be left out in the cold.

All things considered I'd love to see it but there are a lot of hurdles to get over and particularly hurdle number 2 above seems very very high.

bilston

OldRio wrote: »

I see the OP has no idea about the contractual obligations Leinster have with the RDS.
Lets guess on attendances and feck the Italians thread. Silly.

Do you think many Leinster fans know what contractural obligations Leinster have with the RDS?

OldRio

bilston wrote: »

Do you think many Leinster fans know what contractural obligations Leinster have with the RDS?

I have no idea one way or the other but I do know the OP hasn't.

bilston

OldRio wrote: »

I have no idea one way or the other but I do know the OP hasn't.

Yeah but it doesn't mean he can't dream of a British and Irish League!

its_phil

bilston wrote: »

Do you think many Leinster fans know what contractural obligations Leinster have with the RDS?

I would have thought it was pretty common knowledge, especially with plenty written last year on the upgrade the RDS might be getting.

LeinsterDub

its_phil wrote: »

I would have thought it was pretty common knowledge, especially with plenty written last year on the upgrade the RDS might be getting.

The RDS has been getting upgrade since before Leinster moved in there .

Mr RDS man tear down this wall annoying thing blocking my view from the terrace

OldRio

bilston wrote: »

Yeah but it doesn't mean he can't dream of a British and Irish League!

Dream or nightmare ?

Imagine our PRL chums having even more power over our teams. <shudders>

irishbucsfan

I don't want to see it whatsoever. We should be developing and growing the formats that we already have. Not reducing the sport into one league. The Rabo should be run better to allow this and to allow it to be directly competitive with the English/French leagues, and when it is then I see no need at all for a British and Irish league.

The Welsh Regions aren't making it a priority either. It's just the media getting carried away with themselves. The Welsh Regions want to remain in the Pro 12 and hopefully they will.

Clearlier

bilston wrote: »

Do you think many Leinster fans know what contractural obligations Leinster have with the RDS?

A good few would have an idea but even if they hadn't it's a pertinent point in respect of the OP's analysis.


On the subject of a B&I league it would demolish the European cup, ensure that the Italians never become truly competitive and make it nigh on impossible to develop other countries to the point where they can compete at the top table.

On the other hand the French are already in a financial league of their own and have the capability to destroy both the English league and the Pro12. Perhaps the combination of the UK and Ireland could compete financially.

While it wouldn't be all bad I wouldn't on balance like to see a B&I league.

Langerland

Everyone is protecting their own interests, French, English, Us, etc.

If a complete restructure was to be done, I'd like to see all involved and have something like the Conference Structure for the NFL right across Europe as the end result.

This can happen if and only if we re-organise European rugby as a whole.

One Option;
A "Continental" and an "Islands" league.

However, given that the 4 nations that would be involved in an Islands League are established rugby nations, and the Continental League would only have 1 nation with a non-brand new Professional setup, there'd need to be an awful lot of work done to find some way to address imbalances.

Also, participation to be decided how exactly?

Something like this as an example
Islands : 2x12 divisions. England (14 teams), Ireland (4), Wales (4), Scotland (2)
Continental : 2x12 divisions. France ( 18 teams), Italy (2), Russia (2), Romania (1), Georgia (1)

--

Likelihood of happening?

stpaddy99

thomond2006 wrote: »

The Celtic League were willing to accept them because it wouldn't affect any of its own clubs (no promotion/relegation to and from a second division), the LNR/FFR never would.



True but where are the Italians going to get those millions? They would have to pay a huge amount of money to the LNR to get a slice of the pie. The Italians would never be allowed into the Top14 and they're not going to pay millions to enter ProD2.

THEY PAY US 3 MILLION EUROS TO ENTER THE RABO
THIS COMES FROM MAJOR italian sponsors
this goes towards the excessive travel costs of the other nations sides
these travel expense would be minimised if the italians joined french second division

thomond2006

stpaddy99 wrote: »

THEY PAY US 3 MILLION EUROS TO ENTER THE RABO
THIS COMES FROM MAJOR italian sponsors
this goes towards the excessive travel costs of the other nations sides
these travel expense would be minimised if the italians joined french second division

Alright point taken.

You still have the problem of taking spots away from French clubs.

bilston

Clearlier wrote: »

On the other hand the French are already in a financial league of their own and have the capability to destroy both the English league and the Pro12. Perhaps the combination of the UK and Ireland could compete financially.

While it wouldn't be all bad I wouldn't on balance like to see a B&I league.

A British and Irish League would open up a massive domestic TV market for our provinces which would put them in a stronger position to compete with the French.

stpaddy99

bilston wrote: »

A British and Irish League would open up a massive domestic TV market for our provinces which would put them in a stronger position to compete with the French.

true

Clearlier

bilston wrote: »

A British and Irish League would open up a massive domestic TV market for our provinces which would put them in a stronger position to compete with the French.

Yes, sorry, that was what I was trying to say. It's worth noting though that the population of England is more than 3 times than of Ireland, Scotland and Wales combined so most of the growth in TV revenue that would be required to compete with the French financially would have to come more from the appeal of the competition rather than an increase in the market. I don't see the appeal and chasing after the French financially could well be self-defeating. Add in the other drawbacks I (and others) mentioned and I don't think that a B&I league would be the way to go.

stpaddy99

Clearlier wrote: »

Yes, sorry, that was what I was trying to say. It's worth noting though that the population of England is more than 3 times than of Ireland, Scotland and Wales combined so most of the growth in TV revenue that would be required to compete with the French financially would have to come more from the appeal of the competition rather than an increase in the market. I don't see the appeal and chasing after the French financially could well be self-defeating. Add in the other drawbacks I (and others) mentioned and I don't think that a B&I league would be the way to go.

there are no drawbacks. its entirley positives to come out of it.
if we stay too safe we will continue to fall farther behind fincancially hoping unions can keep bailing us out. so what happens when in a few years the english are french get even richer with massive tv deals and were all still stick in the rabo with small crowds, small travelling support and small tv deals? the player drain will grow and grow and grow

Clearlier

stpaddy99 wrote: »

there are no drawbacks. its entirley positives to come out of it.

I'm (obviously) ok with you disagreeing with the drawbacks that I outlined but simply saying that there aren't any doesn't suggest that you have thought this through in any depth.

stpaddy99 wrote: »

if we stay too safe we will continue to fall farther behind fincancially hoping unions can keep bailing us out. so what happens when in a few years the english are french get even richer with massive tv deals and were all still stick in the rabo with small crowds, small travelling support and small tv deals? the player drain will grow and grow and grow

I largely agree about the finances. We've seen it in Wales, we saw it with Sexton and odds are that we'll see it with SOB soon. I'm saying that for the sport of rugby a B&I league is not a good solution.

stpaddy99

Clearlier wrote: »

I'm (obviously) ok with you disagreeing with the drawbacks that I outlined but simply saying that there aren't any doesn't suggest that you have thought this through in any depth.



I largely agree about the finances. We've seen it in Wales, we saw it with Sexton and odds are that we'll see it with SOB soon. I'm saying that for the sport of rugby a B&I league is not a good solution.

not only is it the best solution, if we continue to fall behind the english and french by vast sums of money, a british and irish league will soon become the only option for us to compete

Aiden7

So what happens if there was still a Euro cup, and a B&I League, and the English clubs still didn't do well in Europe, and the Irish teams dominate the B&I League they wouldn't like that, they would probably want to disband the B&I League then LOL

Clearlier

stpaddy99 wrote: »

not only is it the best solution, if we continue to fall behind the english and french by vast sums of money, a british and irish league will soon become the only option for us to compete

It would be bad for the sport.

stpaddy99

Clearlier wrote: »

It would be bad for the sport.

youre looking short term
in the longer term the frech and english sides yet way richer than ours and they buy up all the stars. the welsh and scots and italians will struggle to survive.
we are trying to defy the laws of the free market, impossible
the unions need a better balance where theyre fighting tooth and nail to maximize revenues and tv deals into club/regiona/provinvial rugby....
im all for the unions protecting the game and redistributing funds to grass roots, development, academies etc.....but they must also fight to the death for the best possible deals. clearly the englsh and french clubs are getting far bigger and better tv offers already. if we cna get better deals for the rabo fair enough. but the real cash is in the british and irirsh league. if we dont join our league may end up like the scottisha irish and welsh soccer leagues? totally irrelevant

Clearlier

stpaddy99 wrote: »

youre looking short term

Nope, I'm thinking much longer term and much bigger.

stpaddy99 wrote: »

in the longer term the frech and english sides yet way richer than ours and they buy up all the stars. the welsh and scots and italians will struggle to survive.

That's the short term. The long term sees the failure to develop the sport outside of its present enclaves (on a global level) and the diminution of the domestic market within Ireland as the English financial muscle (they would be financially dominant within a B&I league) forcing the Celtic clubs into a 2nd division. We need to innovate and differentiate not homogenise. A B&I league would secure some short term breathing space but ensure the subservience of the Celtic league clubs in the long term.

stpaddy99 wrote: »

we are trying to defy the laws of the free market, impossible
the unions need a better balance where theyre fighting tooth and nail to maximize revenues and tv deals into club/regiona/provinvial rugby....
im all for the unions protecting the game and redistributing funds to grass roots, development, academies etc.....but they must also fight to the death for the best possible deals. clearly the englsh and french clubs are getting far bigger and better tv offers already. if we cna get better deals for the rabo fair enough. but the real cash is in the british and irirsh league. if we dont join our league may end up like the scottisha irish and welsh soccer leagues? totally irrelevant

The market for rugby is anything but free in economic terms. I strongly dislike the analogies that are made with soccer. I don't think that they're appropriate, we shouldn't be looking to soccer for inspiration. We should be looking to surpass the sport not ape all of their bad practices. Learn from them for sure but not try and be EPL minì. The unions first responsibility is to the sport and I want it to stay that way.

errlloyd

OldRio wrote: »

I see the OP has no idea about the contractual obligations Leinster have with the RDS.
Lets guess on attendances and feck the Italians thread. Silly.

its_phil wrote: »

Absolutely not. Dumping the Italians is not on IMO, even if they dump us first. Governance can not even be agreed upon in the European Cup which takes up nine weekends of the year, and the idea of getting into bed with McCafferty and Wray for 22 weeks makes my skin boil.

I think a handful of people at the start of the thread gave the OP unfair stick for things which weren't really important to the main thrust of the vision he wanted to discuss.

He wants to discuss a vision where a few years down the line we have a British and Irish league and that is a perfectly reasonably vision to discuss, don't nitpick the arguments about the strength of the Italians or of Connacht because you don't know what they will be in 5 years. Don't just blast him for not understanding we have a contract with the RDS (has it been extended beyond 2017?).

I'm a big fan of this happening, and I have a poorly thought about dream as to how it could happen. I'd like the Rabo 12 to just be inserted as a second division between the Premiership and the Championship. 2 team promotion and relegation between the Premiership and the Rabo, and one team promotion and relegation between the Rabo and the Championship (but suspended for the first 2 years). - I'd like to do some analysis if I can.

I think this gradual transition system has a few main advantages. Its going to take 3 seasons to reach balance (assuming no one gets re-promoted or re-relegated). The beauty is that during those 3 seasons I think the leagues will still have pretty equal appeal, because the quality won't change in a hurry. We screw over the championship a little bit in the long run, mostly because I don't think a poor Rabo team should have to end up in the championship when they are just as good as a poor Premiership team.

Once it has reached equilibrium I think you'll have two mighty competitive divisions. It'll be good for the English championship teams because at the moment the gulf between Championship and Premiership is huge. Exeter Chiefs are like the only team to survive promotion right?

How and ever, there are problems which will become evident pretty quickly. Firstly the market will force players from the second division into the first division reasonably quickly, particularly among the English teams. This will not only serve to really weaken the English second division teams, but also really strengthen any English first division teams that survive. Concentrate England's entire playing base into 6 teams instead of 12 and see how strong they become.

While that will perhaps also happen with Welsh teams, it is unlikely to happen as much with Irish teams, Scottish teams and Italian teams who have central contracting so players won't move for money, we don't know how the Welsh will be next year, nevermind in 5, so put them in column A or B as you see fit.

I think we could then see polarisation. Lots of English teams dominating the top of Div 1, and lots of English teams propping up the bottom of Div 2. This would be good news for Connacht. With their strengthening academy I think they'd reasonably quickly make their way to the top flight.

I think it has huge potential to open the game up to new fans. It provides a little bit more variety and interest than the current format. The increased allocation of television rights would also allow us to compete more with the French.


^^

While that is a pipe dream for a bored Thursday morning - I do want to say this for real. I don't want Leinster, Munster and Ulster to be the Ajax, Eindhoven and Benficas of rugby. Teams that 40 years ago were able to compete in Europe and win champions leagues, but today they can't financially compete. The rabo is a poor younger brother to the other two, and its becoming poorer. At the moment we seem to have the luxury of only allowing our players to be pillaged when they have successors, but who knows how long that will last.

OldRio

stpaddy99 wrote: »

there are no drawbacks. its entirley positives to come out of it.

I think you are not seeing the long term effects for the game of Rugby. In fact I'm out.

its_phil

errlloyd wrote: »

I think a handful of people at the start of the thread gave the OP unfair stick for things which weren't really important to the main thrust of the vision he wanted to discuss.

He wants to discuss a vision where a few years down the line we have a British and Irish league and that is a perfectly reasonably vision to discuss, don't nitpick the arguments about the strength of the Italians or of Connacht because you don't know what they will be in 5 years. Don't just blast him for not understanding we have a contract with the RDS (has it been extended beyond 2017?).

No one said anything about Connacht in 5 years first off and Connacht should be around in 5 years time if that is what your trying to suggest.

Nitpick the strength of the Italians? I'm not in favour of dumping the Italians, for going to a British and Irish league which means Italian club rugby retreats to its shell. Make room for the Italians and I'm open to the possibility, but I don't think it is good business for Celtic rugby to get into permanent round the clock business with PRL, like I said 9 weekends is enough.

As for "blasting" him, I forgot how it was such a crime to pick holes in an argument and finding flaws. :rolleyes:

AngeGal

Deleted User wrote: »

This can happen if and only if we re-organise European rugby as a whole.

One Option;
A "Continental" and an "Islands" league.

However, given that the 4 nations that would be involved in an Islands League are established rugby nations, and the Continental League would only have 1 nation with a non-brand new Professional setup, there'd need to be an awful lot of work done to find some way to address imbalances.

Also, participation to be decided how exactly?

Something like this as an example
Islands : 2x12 divisions. England (14 teams), Ireland (4), Wales (4), Scotland (2)
Continental : 2x12 divisions. France ( 18 teams), Italy (2), Russia (2), Romania (1), Georgia (1)

--

Likelihood of happening?

Aside from anyone else, the French would never go for it, they won't move from the top 14 in the foreseeable future and probably not ever.

AngeGal

AngeGal wrote: »

Aside from anyone else, the French would never go for it, they won't move from the top 14 in the foreseeable future and probably not ever.

And that's that to be honest.

It requires complete approval or else it wont work.

irishbucsfan

AngeGal wrote: »

Aside from anyone else, the French would never go for it, they won't move from the top 14 in the foreseeable future and probably not ever.

There's no reason they should, and it provides very little for European rugby anyway. All of these ideas would be great if there was any need to reduce the scope of European rugby, but there isn't. We should be building on the strength of the three leagues we have, with the potential for even more in the long term (a Mediterranean league perhaps between Italian/Portuguese/Spanish, an Eastern league with Romanian/Georgian/Russian and so on).

The Celtic Unions have enough between them to form a successful league which is as good as any other in Europe, and we should just continue to work towards that objective. At that point the TV money will arrive, with the sponsorships, and rugby will be even more attractive than a single British and Irish league could ever make it. It may not happen in the near future, but I still think it can happen.

who_me

stpaddy99 wrote: »

not only is it the best solution, if we continue to fall behind the english and french by vast sums of money, a british and irish league will soon become the only option for us to compete

You seem to be ignoring the possibility that the French (and to a much lesser extent) the English may be in a boom-bust cycle; and the money they're splashing out on stadia & player signings might not be sustainable. Even sugar daddies have finite pockets, and not team can be a winner. Plus new fans/viewers can go as easily as they come.

errlloyd

its_phil wrote: »

No one said anything about Connacht in 5 years first off and Connacht should be around in 5 years time if that is what your trying to suggest.

As for "blasting" him, I forgot how it was such a crime to pick holes in an argument and finding flaws. :rolleyes:

Sorry Phil, I think you may have misread my tone, perhaps I phrased my post poorly.

I was actually suggesting that in 5 years time Connacht would be one of the strongest teams in the Rabo based on their academy and therefore wouldn't need to fear be confined to the second division.

As for picking holes in an argument, I don't believe he was putting forward an argument, he was putting forward an idea. I think imposing full legal and practical potential on an OP is a completely unfair burden. The tone of the OP is clearly optimistic he seemed to be asking people to reflect his optimism in the thread. While I'd say your attack on the OP was realism as opposed to pessimism (I don't think you're a cynical pessimist normally) I still think it went against the spirit of the thread.

I'd simply ask that for dreamy threads, we treat them as such and so don't punish people for daring to think outside the box, especially when they flag it early with phrases like "I dribble at the mouth" and "I've dreamt of this". This isn't a collegiate debate or session of Parliament, not every proposition needs to be backed up with the various facts and figures.

TL:DR Go along with the spirit, put aside your fair objections for a few minutes, discuss what it would look like.

Mal-Adjusted

thomond2006 wrote: »

Italy have been getting more competitive thanks to the formation of the two Rabo sides and breaking up those teams back into the Italian Super 10 would be a travesty

Larbre34 wrote: »

They shouldnt. The superclub model has largely failed for similar reasons that the Welsh regions failed to capture the imagination, it is an artificial entity with forced allegiance.

Just to point out, Treviso were never an artificial region along the line of Aironi/Zebra or the Welsh sides. They are a traditional club who played in the super 10 until being nominated for the Pro12.

Dravokivich

errlloyd wrote: »

TL:DR Go along with the spirit, put aside your fair objections for a few minutes, discuss what it would look like.

The issue with a perceived lack of competitiveness within the Pro12 (due to no promotion / relegation) does not get solved by bundling it into the Aviva Premiership. Which is overall how this pie in the sky idea sounds like it's meant to play out. The money behind it regarding ticket sales is a bit of a laugh too. The big games in England for attendances are derbies. From watching the Aviva Prem on BT, fans don't seem to travel too much. That's an issue already in the Pro12 considering flights and possibly Accom is a factor when traveling between each country. Hardly any will travel around from England.

There's competition against the English clubs through a European cup (HEC,Amlin/Rubgy Championship/B&I Cup/AN Other) already. Doing so in a league format is going to result in devaluing one over the other.

What's needed for Pro12 is additional sponsorship to bring money in. With Sky taking a game a week from next season, it's likely that'll help the Celtic and Italian teams more than merging these leagues together.

stpaddy99

our own domestic league should come first way ahead of the european cup which is just 6 matches (and youre out after 2 defeats) thats small potatoes
a hugely competive week in week out league is the real issue. british and irish league is the way to go......the competition, the tv money, the sponsorship, the crowds , the excitement, heck maybe even some saturday games too
its all there...we just have to have the collective will to make it happen

Dravokivich

Competitiveness is not solved by merging Pro12 and Aviva. All that'll do is abolish Pro12.

The minimal number of European Cup games is what drives their attendances. If this was to become a league format you'd be exhausting it, which'll hurt attendance as it'll be too much travelling for away fans.

What's needed is that the Provinces/Regions/Clubs involved in Pro12 have a more stable and increased input of money. But this is not going to come long term by merging into the domestic leagues in England.