Dairy Breed Bull calves

Farmer Pudsey

With the calving season about to get into full swing what is the outlook for these. At present yearling/weanlings are trading for around 1.3/kg (and that is the good ones). If farmers look at the sums as calves these must be worth less thyan 100/head.

However the real issue is the Jersey/JE-FR/HO crosses/extreme Holstein bull calves. As they will only grade P=/P+ in the main (as bullocks)and factory's penalising P= with a 50c penelty is it time to consider putting them down at birth. It was possible to make a small margin on some if finished as bulls. However from now on that will not be possible and they are unsuitable for export in general I think.

There conversion rate and growth rate is so poor that it it is unenomical to carry to maturity. With dairying expansion the order of the day and some dairy farmers will exit beef and some will want heifers reared is there an point in rearing these calves
There will be a place for the better quality Fr bull that will grade O- or better especially any that can be finished before 30 months and make QA payment. Some of those that are inefficent converters are Ok as well because they have good growth rate which on a grass based system can still be profitable.

The other big fear is will factory's pull the plug on over 30 month cattle 1-2 years down the line. The taking of these out of the market may in the longterm create a more profitable beef sector and remove some of the excess that factory's thrive on.

I know to farmers myself as well this would be a really tough decision but is a reality check needed and for calf buyers is there a necessity the next time you see a calf for 20 or 30 yoyo's to ask even at that price will he return a profit.

visatorro

as a dairy farmer i sell all my bull calves. always have. as far as im concerned the bull calf is gone and the cow is milking. any few euro is a bonus. maybe not the right way to be thinking but i dont really budget for getting money for bull calves. just milk and culls.

jersey101

If a lad came into my yard and offered me 30,40 quid at a few days old id happily take it. Its less work and there gone straight away

jaymla627

Reckon in the 2-3 years it will be a bobby calf job for alot of calves I.e collected at 7-10 days old by the knacker and made into dog food.

49801

Hopefully increased usage of sexed straws to fullfill replacements will lead to increased usage of the dairy beef type straws and the number of JEX bulls produced will be minimal.

manjou

49801 wrote: »

Hopefully increased usage of sexed straws to fullfill replacements will lead to increased usage of the dairy beef type straws and the number of JEX bulls produced will be minimal.

As a matter of interest what will dairy farmers use on rest of their cows when they have ai,d all their best cows with female straws.I would prefer to buy aax or hex heifers as these would be easier finished and it seems what factories want anyone think different?

F.D

is there not a saying the older the animal gets it looks more like its mother!! even if the sexed semen is used for 20% of the herd for replacments it wont matter if you cross a Angus or hereford with the remainder its still going to have a jersey trait
which is still going to end up as a P or in the lower regions of O no matter what you do
My opinion is the smaller dairy man with his british friesans will make a good price for his bull calves in the future as good stock will be scarce

PatQfarmer

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

With the calving season about to get into full swing what is the outlook for these. At present yearling/weanlings are trading for around 1.3/kg (and that is the good ones). If farmers look at the sums as calves these must be worth less thyan 100/head.

I bought no Autumn calves in 2013, because I am thinking the exact same.
Even at €4/kg dead, the money is not in it if paying €200+ for calves.
Hopeless altogether if rearing to sell as stores.
Seems the beef price trend will remain downwards for a while!
If calf price is below €100 this spring, I may buy a few. Otherwise, I'll wait until the superlevy lads have reared them for us and want rid in May.

Timmaay

manjou wrote: »

As a matter of interest what will dairy farmers use on rest of their cows when they have ai,d all their best cows with female straws.I would prefer to buy aax or hex heifers as these would be easier finished and it seems what factories want anyone think different?

He'll use the same selection criteria as the frs, as easy calving as possible, with a short gestation. You look at a cow knocking out 6kL of milk, worth say 40c/l in a yr like this, 2400euro in milk production, we most certainly are not going to chase an extra 100/200quid or so for a good beef calf, and put that income from the milk in jeopardy. Any non breeding calf is a byproduct, simply as is.

mahoney_j

For me anything not getting a fr will be getting a DBZ Belgian blue straw or an angus depending on the cow.lads get some horn around the ring for good quality breeding blue heifers from the dairy herd!!

Gillespy

I know it's hip at the moment to play down the importance of calf sales but AA and HE are easy calving and short gestation. You don't even need to go to the mart, there's always a buyer for them. On top of that, as stock bulls they're nice and docile.

farmerjj

Timmaay wrote: »

He'll use the same selection criteria as the frs, as easy calving as possible, with a short gestation. You look at a cow knocking out 6kL of milk, worth say 40c/l in a yr like this, 2400euro in milk production, we most certainly are not going to chase an extra 100/200quid or so for a good beef calf, and put that income from the milk in jeopardy. Any non breeding calf is a byproduct, simply as is.

I agree if u get a year like this but next year might not be as good say 27c/l then u might need that extra bit of cash!

Farmer Pudsey

visatorro wrote: »

as a dairy farmer i sell all my bull calves. always have. as far as im concerned the bull calf is gone and the cow is milking. any few euro is a bonus. maybe not the right way to be thinking but i dont really budget for getting money for bull calves. just milk and culls.

jersey101 wrote: »

If a lad came into my yard and offered me 30,40 quid at a few days old id happily take it. Its less work and there gone straight away

The question is if your calves become worth less than the cost of rearing what will you do with them. What is the cost of rearing 10-14 day old calves in a non milk quota situation along with capital cost of housing etc. 30L of milk @ 35c/L, another tenner for straw and ration. What is your time worth and what is the value of the calf houses to you.

What if you are getting a tenner for these calves. Maybe you will decide to rear them because ''sur they will come into money down the road''

If we look across other agri industry's/systems male goats, cock chickens from layers etc are all discarded by there industry. Will this become the norm with some dairy breed bull calves from the dairy industry.

The question is if it is uneconomical will you rear them to 10 dayolds.

Brown Podzol

Timmaay wrote: »

He'll use the same selection criteria as the frs, as easy calving as possible, with a short gestation. You look at a cow knocking out 6kL of milk, worth say 40c/l in a yr like this, 2400euro in milk production, we most certainly are not going to chase an extra 100/200quid or so for a good beef calf, and put that income from the milk in jeopardy. Any non breeding calf is a byproduct, simply as is.

If someone could come up with a cocktail of hormones hat you could inject into a cow that would persuade her that she had a calf then I would only put 30% of my cows in calf with sexed Holstein semen.:rolleyes:

mf240

I would rear them for a few weeks and sell them or give them away. I wouldn't kill a baby calf.

limo_100

mahoney_j wrote: »

For me anything not getting a fr will be getting a DBZ Belgian blue straw or an angus depending on the cow.lads get some horn around the ring for good quality breeding blue heifers from the dairy herd!!

DBZ is breeding great stock of the freisian a neighbor used him last and he breed great consistent stock and got top prices for them. I bought a heifer off him in the ring €450 on the day it was a deer price for a 2week old calf but shes cheap now 11 months on shes a big long heifer coming up on 350KG think i'll a few more off him this year.

49801

Brown Podzol wrote: »

If someone could come up with a cocktail of hormones hat you could inject into a cow that would persuade her that she had a calf then I would only put 30% of my cows in calf with sexed Holstein semen.:rolleyes:

That's my idea:D

Farrell

limo_100 wrote: »

DBZ is breeding great stock of the freisian a neighbor used him last and he breed great consistent stock and got top prices for them. I bought a heifer off him in the ring €450 on the day it was a deer price for a 2week old calf but shes cheap now 11 months on shes a big long heifer coming up on 350KG think i'll a few more off him this year.

BB off BF is a good cow, the HO crosses can be hit & miss.
Reading posts, seams Convey's sexed semen proposal is the future in farming

stop thelights

mahoney_j wrote: »

For me anything not getting a fr will be getting a DBZ Belgian blue straw or an angus depending on the cow.lads get some horn around the ring for good quality breeding blue heifers from the dairy herd!!

We're doing the extra same to some of our older autumn ladies! We're not cross bred

C0N0R

mf240 wrote: »

I would rear them for a few weeks and sell them or give them away. I wouldn't kill a baby calf.

But what is the difference between being killed HUMANELY at day old than living a rough life and being killed slightly later? We bobby our calves over here and to be honest im not a massive fan if it, the calf is reared to circa three days old, then given its last feed, thrown into a truck, driven round the roads, stood waiting then finally killed and processed up to 24 hours later. Is it better to humanely kill that calf at birth? I would be inclined to say so. Tough subject though

Brown Podzol

C0N0R wrote: »

But what is the difference between being killed HUMANELY at day old than living a rough life and being killed slightly later? We bobby our calves over here and to be honest im not a massive fan if it, the calf is reared to circa three days old, then given its last feed, thrown into a truck, driven round the roads, stood waiting then finally killed and processed up to 24 hours later. Is it better to humanely kill that calf at birth? I would be inclined to say so. Tough subject though

I suppose it's a lifetime spent calving cows 24/7 during the springtime and doing your best to keep the life in sick calves, it goes against the grain to shoot them at birth.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

What a horrible thread with horrible replies you'd sell a baby calf knowing it was going to be made into dogfood?? Jesus

epfff

LexieOnRale wrote: »

What a horrible thread with horrible replies you'd sell a baby calf knowing it was going to be made into dogfood?? Jesus

Sad reality of it is its what is going to happen if supermarkets/consumer keep putting downward pressure on prices
There is only so much money you can lose before you go bust
Maybe there maybe we could have sanctuaries for dairy breed bulls like donkeys

jersey101

LexieOnRale wrote: »

What a horrible thread with horrible replies you'd sell a baby calf knowing it was going to be made into dogfood?? Jesus

Farming isn't the same as the old'in days I'm afraid. Nowadays its a business that has to make a profit to survive and if it doesn't ye have to cut out what isn't.

epfff

jersey101 wrote: »

Farming isn't the same as the old'in days I'm afraid. Nowadays its a business that has to make a profit to survive and if it doesn't ye have to cut out what isn't.

It always had to make a profit to support families just the market was softer
I feed a lot of fr ho bulls last few years but with factory specs I'm getting now I'll be raring no calves this year and looking for a victim to buy the yearnings I have On hand
have majority of forward ones gone now lost shirt on last bunch

Timmaay

farmerjj wrote: »

I agree if u get a year like this but next year might not be as good say 27c/l then u might need that extra bit of cash!

I'm going to annoy mahoney here ha, but ya get a herd of JExs, at least then your solids bump that price up to like 33cent

bogman_bass

Lads what do you think our customer (the Dublin housewife) would say if bobby calves became the norm? You are right when you say its a business but PR is a big part of any industry but ours especally. Look at the bigger picture!

Mac Taylor

bogman_bass wrote: »

Lads what do you think our customer (the Dublin housewife) would say if bobby calves became the norm? You are right when you say its a business but PR is a big part of any industry but ours especally. Look at the bigger picture!

I agree with you, is there any opportunity for veal production. I know allot is people have an issue with this but is it a better option than following the Nz bobby model.
I saw a few jersey x weanlings in Kenmare last October, there was hardly anyone to put a bid on them.

Timmaay

bogman_bass wrote: »

Lads what do you think our customer (the Dublin housewife) would say if bobby calves became the norm? You are right when you say its a business but PR is a big part of any industry but ours especally. Look at the bigger picture!

Our customers sure as sh&te ain't the dub housewife anymore, its the Chinese buying milk powder!

Bellview

Timmaay wrote: »

Our customers sure as sh&te ain't the dub housewife anymore, its the Chinese buying milk powder!

Don't forget the home market as Chinese are buying up nz farms too!

Timmaay

Bellview wrote: »

Don't forget the home market as Chinese are buying up nz farms too!

I'm sorry, I'll trust the Chinese over ourown supermarkets anyday who happyly sell milk below cost. If the milk market changes so as that I'm a liquid milk supplier only for Irish costumers there will be a for sale sign up on our farm!

bogman_bass

Timmaay wrote: »

Our customers sure as sh&te ain't the dub housewife anymore, its the Chinese buying milk powder!

feck all Irish powder is going to China bar infant formula.
Remember that we have built up a marketing image of Ireland being a green and pleasent land for our overseas customers. It would be foolish to damage that

mahoney_j

Timmaay wrote: »

I'm going to annoy mahoney here ha, but ya get a herd of JExs, at least then your solids bump that price up to like 33cent

Sure the auld Holstein is a big streaky miserable yolk who produces a couple of thousand of litres of water every year ,won't go in calf.sure you'd be better off shooting the heifers as well as bulls at birth!!!!!!.right back at ya Tim!!

C0N0R

LexieOnRale wrote: »

What a horrible thread with horrible replies you'd sell a baby calf knowing it was going to be made into dogfood?? Jesus

Probably a bit of a devils advocate here but ill throw it out there, what's the difference In a calf being killed for dog food and a cow being killed for human food? Or indeed a cow being killed for dog food? Surely the more important thing is the animal is treated humanely from day one and has a fast pain free death?

Milked out

While all the talk is of jersey being the way forward I don't think there will be a glut of jerx bulls arrive on the scene as most expansion in milk will come from existing farms the majority of which land will be the limiting factor and the jer route will not be the route to go unless the acreage is fairly large, and considering jer accounts for a small enough proportion of AI servings still. So the question is will the hol/fr bullock leave a return for the beef farmer. Also the thing with bull calves most dairy farmers will sell whatever the price is because they are not set up to hold on to them so someone will generally always buy them. If prices are poor even selling at 2 wks for 20 would be better than shooting at birth as they would generally be fed on milk that cant go to the tank anyway so only cost you your time for that period. Also I wouldn't get too excited on the sexed semen yet as even if it does improve in conception rates it would want to come close to conventional rates before widespread use would be taken as the calving spread could be adversely affected which would be worse than having bull calves imo

trixi2011

mahoney_j wrote: »

Shoot them,that costs money swift blow of a hamme to the back of the head costs less.the brother works a lot in oz and New Zealand and seen it been commonly done.i could never do that to a calf never mind shoot it.like brown podzol says it goes against the grain

As far as I know the hammer is now outlawed over here and real heafty fines if you get caught. We had a slaughter man come once a day to shoot our bobby calves this year not nice at all but more humane than the bobby truck.

trixi2011

C0N0R wrote: »

Probably a bit of a devils advocate here but ill throw it out there, what's the difference In a calf being killed for dog food and a cow being killed for human food? Or indeed a cow being killed for dog food? Surely the more important thing is the animal is treated humanely from day one and has a fast pain free death?

Think the cows that are killed for dog food over here are killed more humanly than any animal that makes it to the factory.

C0N0R

trixi2011 wrote: »

Think the cows that are killed for dog food over here are killed more humanly than any animal that makes it to the factory.

When you look at stress on the animal etc your 100% correct

epfff

bogman_bass wrote: »

Lads what do you think our customer (the Dublin housewife) would say if bobby calves became the norm? You are right when you say its a business but PR is a big part of any industry but ours especally. Look at the bigger picture!

So what you are saying is that us beef farmers should start to carry technology dairy guys as well as factories
or better idea is it the dairy guys should start to carry us give us a few quid with the calf to give themselves some good pr
Solid plan I like it

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

C0N0R wrote: »

Probably a bit of a devils advocate here but ill throw it out there, what's the difference In a calf being killed for dog food and a cow being killed for human food? Or indeed a cow being killed for dog food? Surely the more important thing is the animal is treated humanely from day one and has a fast pain free death?

Completely agree. Breaks my heart thinking about the animals that are slaughtered so some fat greedy bastard can have steak juice dribble down his chin. That's what I hated most about when my dad was farming. Cattle were so easy to tame and become pets, and I always felt guilty esp when they got older and closer to be sold, that these animals trusted me enough not to hurt them or scare them, all the while I knew what was going to happen to them. Just call me Judas.

But then to come on this thread and read some people murder a small defenceless baby calf by taking a hammer to his skull, or shooting him. Wow, people who are capable of inflicting that onto a baby animal, well they're absolutely barbaric and if I ever for a second thought a farmer nearby me was treating his animals in such a manner I would contact both the guards and the society of prevention of cruelty to animals. Because anyone that would do that are not fit to have animals, hell, anyone so disgusting and cruel would not be fit company for any society.

Timmaay

Lexie, us farmers do not want to explore that route at all, as some of the lads said earlier, we are use of doing our best to get a calf to survive, and just to turn around and accept that they will be put down at birth isn't in our nature. However hopefully sexed seman will offer the solution, you only put the best 30% of your cows incalf to dairy, and the rest to beef, of which there is scope for alot of the unprofitable suckler farmers to change over to calf to beef systems instead.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Timmaay I understand what you're saying, I know from my own dad here, he wouldn't let a fresian bullock around the house as he always said they'd eat You out of house and home but would always look bad and you would get it hard to sell him.

But, there's no way that justifies killing them. At present that's a choice and a risk you take when you put the cow in calf. Could be a girl, could be a boy. Either way, it's a brand new baby, completely defenceless, that does not deserve to be brutally beaten to death.

ellewood

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Timmaay I understand what you're saying, I know from my own dad here, he wouldn't let a fresian bullock around the house as he always said they'd eat You out of house and home but would always look bad and you would get it hard to sell him.

But, there's no way that justifies killing them. At present that's a choice and a risk you take when you put the cow in calf. Could be a girl, could be a boy. Either way, it's a brand new baby, completely defenceless, that does not deserve to be brutally beaten to death.

While I can see your'e point, I dont think there are any calves brutally beaten to death in Ireland!!

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

ellewood wrote: »

While I can see your'e point, I dont think there are any calves brutally beaten to death in Ireland!!

I would hope not, and the thought never crossed my mind until I read someone posting about beating them over the head with a hammer to save money on bullets :eek:

qo2cj1dsne8y4k

Ugh if I ever win The euro millions I'm going to have an unwanted calf sanctuary

bbam

Lads.
I think the whole talk about beating calves to death with hammers is getting a bit out of control, and it does nothing for the general public perception of us. Remember, these threads are open for all to read and not just farmers.

It's not happening in Ireland at the moment and TbH I don't see it happening. Most dairy lass would let calves go at small money rather than this happening. Dairy calves may come back to a price where they belong but I could easily see lads selling them for €20 rather than paying the knackery to take them away.

manjou

If there is alot of sexed semen used then less ho and jex bull calves to deal with. Dont mind what the cow is at end of day for me want an animal that can grow and fatten of grass with as little grain as possible. Have seen some nice aa and hex etc in marts of dairy cows and might not have confirmation of contintal caif but would grow just as much and may kill out fairly well.

jersey101

I then I read in the info yesterday fr bull calves going for 80-230 euro

Farmer Pudsey

bbam wrote: »

Lads.
I think the whole talk about beating calves to death with hammers is getting a bit out of control, and it does nothing for the general public perception of us. Remember, these threads are open for all to read and not just farmers.

It's not happening in Ireland at the moment and TbH I don't see it happening. Most dairy lass would let calves go at small money rather than this happening. Dairy calves may come back to a price where they belong but I could easily see lads selling them for €20 rather than paying the knackery to take them away.

First off any this talk about killing calves with hammers is rubbish, all calves will have to be atgged and accounted for within the system just like if you have too many twins the Dept checks up on you if too few for number of cows same thing you are in trouble with department.

The problem i see arising is everybody assumes that all calves will have some economic value or that some body will give 20-30 as present. However with the factory not wanting Bull beef except under 16 months and some of these calves being uneconomic to carry to finish as bullocks. Then what happens if after going to the mart with them at 3 weeks and you get no bid
and cannot sell from home will you carry to 6 or 8 months when a drystock might take them.

manjou wrote: »

If there is alot of sexed semen used then less ho and jex bull calves to deal with. Dont mind what the cow is at end of day for me want an animal that can grow and fatten of grass with as little grain as possible. Have seen some nice aa and hex etc in marts of dairy cows and might not have confirmation of contintal caif but would grow just as much and may kill out fairly well.

Sexed semen is at least 4+ years away from commercial production most trials indicate that. Was at a meeting where a Teagasc advisor said that they were advising there clients not to use this year. 4+ years is 5+ before calves on the ground. From thsi it can be assumed that it will be post 2020 before this wil eliminate this being a possible issue.

Farmer Pudsey

jersey101 wrote: »

I then I read in the info yesterday fr bull calves going for 80-230 euro

Last October i bought a mixed bunch of calves 220 kgs with a few AA in them for less than 350/head delivered into my yard. Some of these may being bought by dairy farmers over quota.

At present yearling Fr bulls (good ones) 300kgs are making 400euro. How much of a margin are there on them if bought at 100 euro at 3 weeks.

reilig

[Mod Note]

lads, the report post button has started for this thread and could go into overdrive. It needs to be noted that all slaughter carried out in Ireland is done so humanely. Many of the actions described in the deleted posts are illegal in this country and are not carried out. We have a policy of not discussing illegal activity on this forum. I'm aware that some of the posters here are not located in Ireland. We should always be aware that this is a public forum and can be read by anyone. therefore we should not discuss or advocate things which may taint the good image of Irish Agriculture.