Loss of Control

Myrddin

Hi folks,

I was a passenger in the other half's car yesterday, a 1.4 Auris, which a few months ago has had a good service & two new tyres. It was raining, though not beyond the type of rain that we don't normally see here, so the road was wet. Half way around a roundabout, going from 2nd to 3rd, the back end of the car stepped right out...90 degrees almost, so we were left facing into the roundabout.

She had told me this had happened a few weeks beforehand, but thought it must have been oil or something on the road at the time. Being in the car myself this time, I can honestly say speed wasn't a factor, it was 2nd gear speed on a wet but not drenched road. It was as if the back end was on ice, it had literally no grip. She was too shaken up to continue so I took over the drive from there {yes I'm covered to drive other cars}, but it didn't happen again throughout the rest of the journey.

I pulled in at a garage to check the tyre pressures, my thinking being because the tyres are fairly new, perhaps they were over-inflated & the pressures were too high...to my surprise both rears were at 26 psi, pretty low actually. According to the badge on the b-pillar, tyres should be set at 32 psi front & rear. So it obviously wasn't a pressure issue, I therefore checked the branding of the tyre. Triangle, fecking triangle!

I came on yesterday to ask if anyone had heard of them, but boards was down so I did some googling, & courtesy of Google's cache, I found some boards pages with some pretty damning posts about this brand of tyre. I hadn't heard of them before, but it seems a fair few folks had bad experiences with them? I know they aren't premium tyres or anything, but assuming these are the problem, they're utterly shocking...how are they legal? It turns out they were €75 each, x2, so €150 for tyres that are probably less safe than the bald ones that came off the car.

Has anyone any recommendations for decent, safe tyres in that kinda price range?

colm_mcm

Was it triangles you had on?

Are they 205/55R16 or 195/55R15?

afatbollix

Cheap crap tyres Id say.

You might have the best car in the world but only a patch the size of a ipad touches the ground! They are the most important part of your car. Go out and get a set of a brand that you have heard of before hand.

Myrddin

colm_mcm wrote: »

Was it triangles you had on?

Are they 205/55R16 or 195/55R15?

Yep, both triangles on the rear. They're the 205/55/R16's

fletch

Changing gear mid corner wouldn't have helped either as when your OH clutched in, it would have temporarily slowed the car down shifting the weight to the front tyres, lightening the back end. Not so much of an issue with decent tyres but with triangles :eek:

Myrddin

fletch wrote: »

Changing gear mid corner wouldn't have helped either as when your OH clutched in, it would have temporarily slowed the car down shifting the weight to the front tyres, lightening the back end. Not so much of an issue with decent tyres but with triangles :eek:

Yeah lift off oversteer I think it's called? I thought €150 would get you two budget, but at least safe tyres...

coolisin

Myrddin wrote: »

I thought €150 would get you two budget, but at least safe tyres...

Herself got ripped off in the exact sameway last when they said €80 per tyre she assumed they'd of being decent trye, complete rubbish zeetex. Get rid of ASAP op.

Myrddin

coolisin wrote: »

Herself got ripped off in the exact sameway last when they said €80 per tyre she assumed they'd of being decent trye, complete rubbish zeetex. Get rid of ASAP op.

Yeah it only happened yesterday evening, so I told her to sort it asap as again, the loss of control as such low speed is hard to convey...it was ridiculous, & dangerous. Would you have any recommendations for decent tyres around that price mark, or are we talking much more to get something safe?

Nino Brown

I don't know if I'd blame the tyres here, clutching while turning is the most likely cause of the loss of control. The only thing pulling the car around the roundabout is the front wheels. When you clutch, the power to the front wheels is lost, the weight shifts and control is lost.

colm_mcm

I've driven lots of auriss, both on factory tyres and on triangles. The difference is astonishing.

Myrddin

OSI wrote: »

What size OP? A set of Uniroyals will be perfectly fine on the back of an Auris. The RainSport and RainExpert in particular are excellent in the wet.

Cheers, will look into a set of Uniroyals. The ones on the car currently are 16"

OSI wrote: »

This would only happen if they were absolutely caning it. He'd have had to have been right on the edge of traction before changing gear for it to have an affect.

Agreed. Had I not have been in the car I might agree, but lift off oversteer at around 20mph just shouldn't happen in conditions like this. Weight shifting to the front of the car is what caused the spin, but at such low speeds there really should be more grip at the rear

vibe666

had a similar issue years ago with our old fiesta. didn't have a clue that such bad tyres existed. was driving up a hill on a very slight bend in the wet behind 2 cars and a panel van and as i went around the bend the back end just went out from under me with no warning.

hadn't had the car long and it was the first time driving it in proper wet conditions and there was some mud on the road, but knowing i wasn't going that fast because i was following a big van slowly up a hill.

drove straight into a tyre fitters and he took one look and said they were death traps even though there was plenty of tread on the tyre. got all 4 changed there and then and it was like driving a different car from then on.

i'm amazed that tyres that bad are allowed to be sold here. you'd think with all the regulations etc. on just about everything that there would be a minimum standard, particularly now that part worns are being made a big deal of.

Nino Brown

OSI wrote: »

This would only happen if they were absolutely caning it. He'd have had to have been right on the edge of traction before changing gear for it to have an affect.

True, I know the OP says it was second gear speed, but they driver obviously felt a shift into third was appropriate so speed may have been an issue, I suppose the tightness of the roundabout would make a difference. Maybe the tyres were a contributing factors, but on a wet road on a bend, I'd be reluctant to take my foot of the accelerator, nevermind clutching.
I think the general rule is you should be doing any braking or gear changes before you enter a bend, and drive through the bend to maintain torque, so the same would apply to a roundabout.

This exact thing happened to me twice before in a ford focus with decent tyres, and all I did was lift off the accelerator, so it's not that uncommon

Myrddin

Nino Brown wrote: »

True, I know the OP says it was second gear speed, but they driver obviously felt a shift into third was appropriate so speed may have been an issue, I suppose the tightness of the roundabout would make a difference. Maybe the tyres were a contributing factors, but on a wet road on a bend, I'd be reluctant to take my foot of the accelerator, nevermind clutching.
I think the general rule is you should be doing any braking or gear changes before you enter a bend, and drive through the bend to maintain torque, so the same would apply to a roundabout.

This exact thing happened to me twice before in a ford focus with decent tyres, and all I did was lift off the accelerator, so it's not that uncommon

Speed wasn't the issue. Go out into your car there, drive up to 2nd gear, turn right gently & clutch...would you expect it to spin 90 degrees? I wouldn't, unless it was icey out. It was like hitting a patch of ice but only on the back. The road was wet, but it wasn't soaked & wasn't even raining at the time.

The roundabout wasn't tight, it was where you come up off the M50, turning right heading to Carrickmines. Your right in what you say, but honestly, the speed was far too low for this to happen normally. It felt exactly like a skidpan for those of you who had a chance to see what they're like...gentle turn, low speed, then bang, you're sideways.

EazyD

Myrddin wrote: »

Cheers, will look into a set of Uniroyals. The ones on the car currently are 16"



Agreed. Had I not have been in the car I might agree, but lift off oversteer at around 20mph just shouldn't happen in conditions like this. Weight shifting to the front of the car is what caused the spin, but at such low speeds there really should be more grip at the rear

I'd 2nd the uniroyals OP, hard to beat. IMO, these cheaply made/low silicone tires should be subject to more rigorous safety testing.

chrismon

Can she being them back and ask for something else or is she stuck with them?
Good rubber is essential.

Myrddin

chrismon wrote: »

Can she being them back and ask for something else or is she stuck with them?
Good rubber is essential.

I'd imagine stuck with them. Feck it though, it's a cheap lesson if all it costs is the price of a set of tyres. Will prob go with Uniroyals, cheers for the advice folks

MidlandsM

Hard to Bate uniroyals alright......

Nino Brown

EazyD wrote: »

I'd 2nd the uniroyals OP, hard to beat. IMO, these cheaply made/low silicone tires should be subject to more rigorous safety testing.

Aren't all tyres rated now? Last time I got tyres I told the guy I didn't care about fuel efficiency or noise, but I wanted A's for wet, and that's what I got. He even brought me the tyres and showed me the ratings and asked if I was happy to have them fitted.
He's in Leixlip, if anybody wants his details PM me

h3000

Myrddin wrote: »

I'd imagine stuck with them. Feck it though, it's a cheap lesson if all it costs is the price of a set of tyres. Will prob go with Uniroyals, cheers for the advice folks

Check out Vredesteins (Sportrac 5) too, they are another great mid budget rain tyre.

mickdw

h3000 wrote: »

Check out Vredesteins too, they are another great mid budget rain tyre.

Yes, I found vredestein sessantas amazing in wet even compared to factory fit pilot sport.

Alun

Myrddin wrote: »

The roundabout wasn't tight, it was where you come up off the M50, turning right heading to Carrickmines.

There's your problem right there, even with good tyres that roundabout is a potential death trap. I don't know whether it's down to the road surface, or if at some time there's been an oil spill that wasn't cleared up properly, but I'm always very, very careful there after one or two 'moments' on it in the wet.

In fact just the other day, when conditions were barely wet, I saw a breakdown truck nearly do a 360 as he went round there.

conor2469

I have 2 triangles on the back of my Passat, exact same thing happened to me on a roundabout. Terrible tyres...

BMJD

colm_mcm wrote: »

I've driven lots of auriss, both on factory tyres and on triangles. The difference is astonishing.

Agreed. I used to think that people were exaggerating the difference between premium tyres and bottom of the barrel brands until I drove a Lexus IS200 with brand new Triangles on the rear. Driving in the wet was like driving on sheet ice, even in the dry it was dodgy at best. I changed to Goodyear Eagle F1s and the difference was unreal. For the sake of a couple of hundred €'s, get yer gf some decent tyres, OP.

Cuddlesworth

Alun wrote: »

There's your problem right there, even with good tyres that roundabout is a potential death trap. I don't know whether it's down to the road surface, or if at some time there's been an oil spill that wasn't cleared up properly, but I'm always very, very careful there after one or two 'moments' on it in the wet.

In fact just the other day, when conditions were barely wet, I saw a breakdown truck nearly do a 360 as he went round there.

There is definitely oil there right now. I hit it yesterday and the car slid sideways about a foot at low speed. It was on the roundabout pretty much opposite the entry from the M50 southbound. I'm in a AWD forester with good Bridgestones on it as well.

I think it shows the difference between a good tyre and a crap tyre tbh.

alias no.9

Nino Brown wrote: »

I don't know if I'd blame the tyres here, clutching while turning is the most likely cause of the loss of control. The only thing pulling the car around the roundabout is the front wheels. When you clutch, the power to the front wheels is lost, the weight shifts and control is lost.

This. When you press the clutch, you lose all traction, you've gone from having the front wheels pulling you round the roundabout to having the momentum of the car pushing you through it.

Myrddin

Alun wrote: »

There's your problem right there, even with good tyres that roundabout is a potential death trap. I don't know whether it's down to the road surface, or if at some time there's been an oil spill that wasn't cleared up properly, but I'm always very, very careful there after one or two 'moments' on it in the wet.

In fact just the other day, when conditions were barely wet, I saw a breakdown truck nearly do a 360 as he went round there.

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

There is definitely oil there right now. I hit it yesterday and the car slid sideways about a foot at low speed. It was on the roundabout pretty much opposite the entry from the M50 southbound. I'm in a AWD forester with good Bridgestones on it as well.

I think it shows the difference between a good tyre and a crap tyre tbh.

Good to know, will be extra careful there in future. Cheers guys

alias no.9 wrote: »

This. When you press the clutch, you lose all traction, you've gone from having the front wheels pulling you round the roundabout to having the momentum of the car pushing you through it.

I really hate to toot my own horn, but I've done three advanced driving courses, one crash avoidance course, I've been around Rockingham Speedway quite a few times in all manner of weather & cars, I've a couple of hours skid-pan testing done too...this was lift-off oversteer at 20mph. 20mph folks, not 60, 70, or 80+ mph...but 20mph...a normally wet road, low speed, mild right hand turn...it was not normal.

She did say it had happened a few weeks earlier in a different spot, so while there might be some kind of surface issue on this particular roundabout, I don't think these tyres have helped from what I'm reading.

Nino Brown

Myrddin wrote: »

She did say it had happened a few weeks earlier in a different spot, so while there might be some kind of surface issue on this particular roundabout, I don't think these tyres have helped from what I'm reading.

Not doubting the tyres played a big part here, but if it was just the tyres there'd be people spinning out all over the place.
Not doubting your driving skills either, but you were't driving and it is possible to spin a car with good tyres at 20mph, by braking, clutching or lifting off, and the wrong time on wet bend.

When people are buying cheaper tyres they need to be realize that you won't get away with bad driving habits as easily. Not directed at you or the driver OP, I mean it as a general statement, as I said I've spun myself on a wet roundabout before, due to bad habits.
Tyres are the only thing holding us to the road, times are hard, but walls are harder, this isn't the place to skimp. I started paying more attention to tyres after my own incident.

Tea 1000

Nino Brown wrote: »

True, I know the OP says it was second gear speed, but they driver obviously felt a shift into third was appropriate so speed may have been an issue, I suppose the tightness of the roundabout would make a difference. Maybe the tyres were a contributing factors, but on a wet road on a bend, I'd be reluctant to take my foot of the accelerator, nevermind clutching.
I think the general rule is you should be doing any braking or gear changes before you enter a bend, and drive through the bend to maintain torque, so the same would apply to a roundabout.

This exact thing happened to me twice before in a ford focus with decent tyres, and all I did was lift off the accelerator, so it's not that uncommon

It shouldn't matter, on a car that's anyway reasonably balanced and with somewhat decent tyres you shouldn't have to put too much thought into driving at 20mph. In some cars with decent tyres you'd find it hard enough to get the back out with a violent turn of the wheel and a yank of the handbrake, nevermind pressing the clutch!

Nino Brown wrote: »

Aren't all tyres rated now? Last time I got tyres I told the guy I didn't care about fuel efficiency or noise, but I wanted A's for wet, and that's what I got. He even brought me the tyres and showed me the ratings and asked if I was happy to have them fitted.
He's in Leixlip, if anybody wants his details PM me

They're rated alright for wet braking, which does give a decent indicator to be fair, but it's still only part of the story with the performance of the tyre in general.
Triangles are muck, and at €75 I can only assume she went to a cowboy, or maybe Advance Pitstop who have consistantly quoted myself and folk I know silly money for bottom of the barrel tyres.
Like folk say, decent tyres are key, but you only have to come up a small few euro to make a big difference in a lot of cases.
Best thing to do is Google a set of places near you, ring them with your tyre size and ask them what they have in stock in that size. Write it all down and compare and go for the best or come here for some advice on what you find out. Tell them you want a decent tyre so you've no interest in Sunny or the like.

Myrddin

Tea 1000 wrote: »

It shouldn't matter, on a car that's anyway reasonably balanced and with somewhat decent tyres you shouldn't have to put too much thought into driving at 20mph. In some cars with decent tyres you'd find it hard enough to get the back out with a violent turn of the wheel and a yank of the handbrake, nevermind pressing the clutch!

Exactly, & again, despite the fact I wasn't driving, I know exactly what was going on in the car at the time. I'm just repeating myself so I won't go into it again, & although I wasn't driving, I was fully aware of the speed, corner, & road conditions...it had nothing to do with depressing the clutch...there was a sudden & total loss of traction at the rear. As you said, you'd have a hard job getting the back out by turning aggressively at this speed, not a gentle roundabout.

Triangles are muck, and at €75 I can only assume she went to a cowboy, or maybe Advance Pitstop who have consistantly quoted myself and folk I know silly money for bottom of the barrel tyres.
Like folk say, decent tyres are key, but you only have to come up a small few euro to make a big difference in a lot of cases.
Best thing to do is Google a set of places near you, ring them with your tyre size and ask them what they have in stock in that size. Write it all down and compare and go for the best or come here for some advice on what you find out. Tell them you want a decent tyre so you've no interest in Sunny or the like.

I'm not sure where she got them, some place in Crumlin is all I know {nor would I name the supplier anyway even if I knew}. I got a quote there from a tyre place local to me, he said he'd do Bridgestones for me for €85 each...seems pretty reasonable?

Supergurrier

This is why if you buy cheap tyres you should put the two best on the rears as you want the fronts to lose grip before the rears which causes harmless understeer which you can correct, if the rear lets go first though...

h3000

Myrddin wrote: »

I got a quote there from a tyre place local to me, he said he'd do Bridgestones for me for €85 each...seems pretty reasonable?

Keep an eye on what Bridgestones you are being quoted for, not all of them are as good as the name would lead you to believe http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Tyre/Bridgestone/Turanza-ER300.htm

Myrddin

h3000 wrote: »

Keep an eye on what Bridgestones you are being quoted for, not all of them are as good as the name would lead you to believe http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Tyre/Bridgestone/Turanza-ER300.htm

Interesting, cheers. Another name coming up in getting quotes is Firestone...any thoughts on them?

Chimaera

Firestone are Bridgestone's budget wing.

h3000

Myrddin wrote: »

Interesting, cheers. Another name coming up in getting quotes is Firestone...any thoughts on them?

Again the reviews don't look great.

I find this site excellent for tyre reviews, they seem to be very genuine.
http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Tyre/
http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Tyre/Firestone/

Myrddin

Chimaera wrote: »

Firestone are Bridgestone's budget wing.

Cheers, would I be right in presuming that even despite this, they'd be a pretty big improvement on the likes of Triangles?

Supergurrier

Myrddin wrote: »

Cheers, would I be right in presuming that even despite this, they'd be a pretty big improvement on the likes of Triangles?

Kumho are a good mid range brand

Borzoi

Alun wrote: »

There's your problem right there, even with good tyres that roundabout is a potential death trap. I don't know whether it's down to the road surface, or if at some time there's been an oil spill that wasn't cleared up properly, but I'm always very, very careful there after one or two 'moments' on it in the wet.

In fact just the other day, when conditions were barely wet, I saw a breakdown truck nearly do a 360 as he went round there.

I was behind a van that similarly lost it. Spun 120 degrees so ended up almost facing me. Luckily I was going very slowly and had left plenty of space, so no accident, but yerman was visibly shocked.
this was the Carrickmines roundabout, the lower one at the park and ride entrance. About 18 months ago

bazz26

Myrddin wrote: »

Yeah it only happened yesterday evening, so I told her to sort it asap as again, the loss of control as such low speed is hard to convey...it was ridiculous, & dangerous. Would you have any recommendations for decent tyres around that price mark, or are we talking much more to get something safe?

My father has an Auris and I got him these Hankook and he finds them very good. Paid €75 each for them locally including fitting at the time. Will be getting him another pair soon.

http://www.camskill.co.uk/m62b0s291p106754/Hankook_Tyres_Car_Hankook_K110_Ventus_V12_Evo_Hankook_K_110_-_205_55_R16_94W_XL_TL_Fuel_Eff_%3A_C_Wet_Grip%3A_C_NoiseClass%3A_2_Noise%3A_70dB

Tea 1000

h3000 wrote: »

Keep an eye on what Bridgestones you are being quoted for, not all of them are as good as the name would lead you to believe http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Tyre/Bridgestone/Turanza-ER300.htm

Those Turanza ER300's are a decent tyre. They were replaced by the T0001's though, which are poor.
That tyrereviews.co.uk site I'd only glance at to be honest, it's all user reviews, no proper tests. One fella on that link you posted claimes to have 78k miles on his Turanza's and still sound so that can be the type of user input the site gets.

Bridgestone, Dunlop, Pirelli and all of them make many different tyres, some good, some not so good. If you can find out the model it's more useful. But any Bridgestone would be better than any Triangle.

Tea 1000

bazz26 wrote: »

My father has an Auris and I got him these Hankook and he finds them very good. Paid €75 each for them locally including fitting at the time. Will be getting him another pair soon.

http://www.camskill.co.uk/m62b0s291p106754/Hankook_Tyres_Car_Hankook_K110_Ventus_V12_Evo_Hankook_K_110_-_205_55_R16_94W_XL_TL_Fuel_Eff_%3A_C_Wet_Grip%3A_C_NoiseClass%3A_2_Noise%3A_70dB

Had those V12 Evo's on the wife's car, was fairly happy with them, not too bad at all, but replaced them with the S1 Evo's. Much better tyre, particularly in the wet.
See here, they seem a little cheaper too:
http://www.camskill.co.uk/m62b0s291p106743/Hankook_Tyres_Car_Hankook_K107_Ventus_S1_Evo_Hankook_K_107_-_205_55_R16_91V_TL_Fuel_Eff_%3A_E_Wet_Grip%3A_B_NoiseClass%3A_2_Noise%3A_70dB

h3000

Tea 1000 wrote: »

That tyrereviews.co.uk site I'd only glance at to be honest, it's all user reviews, no proper tests. One fella on that link you posted claimes to have 78k miles on his Turanza's and still sound so that can be the type of user input the site gets.

Bridgestone, Dunlop, Pirelli and all of them make many different tyres, some good, some not so good. If you can find out the model it's more useful. But any Bridgestone would be better than any Triangle.

I agree with you 100% but it is a decent guide to start with. They often have links to official test for each tyre too, particularly the better performing tyres.

Tea 1000

h3000 wrote: »

I agree with you 100% but it is a decent guide to start with. They often have links to official test for each tyre too, particularly the better performing tyres.

Ah ya, it's certainly a decent enough starting point, but the best source is other folk that you know who know what they're talking about giving their experience with them.
Some on that site might know, others won't, so you might get a very mixed review for a fairly good tyre!