Historical reasons for locations of current tolls

veryangryman

Just idle and thinking about the rationale of each toll and it's positioning.

A, far as I recall, the first motorway toll was the M50 bridge. Logical location - easily the most expensive part of the build. I also think it was put there to test the water for future tolls (ie if not too many dodge it then it's open season elsewhere).

Then I think we got enfield. A silly place to have one (proven by the amount of dodgers there). No idea of why this was done, particularly given the plan to have another toll on the Dublin Galway axis.

Droghedas toll probably the daftest. Ireland's largest town being clogged over it. Other than the admittedly expensive bridge what was the thinking of this tollpoint. Closely followed by fermoys for the same reasons.

Both M3 tolls are fair given their relative cost plus the daft spending of taxpayers money on a motorway to kells.

M7 probably should be further west as it's unfair to cork residents to pay 2 tolls to Dublin.

All seemed to an an overall smash and grab at the expense of the already heavily taxed motorist.

Middle Man

AFAIK, the M1 toll was part of a PPP arrangement where a mainline toll plaza (as well as 2 ramp plazas) would be placed on the already state funded Drogheda Bypass in return for the construction of the Dundalk Western Bypass with private finance.

Carawaystick

The westlink involved a Dublin county manager who was jailed
Ray Burke a convict
Haughey
Liam Lawlor, another jailbird

I don't think there was an open and transparent decision to build the toll there...

L1011

veryangryman wrote: »

M7 probably should be further west as it's unfair to cork residents to pay 2 tolls to Dublin.

Yet fair for Galway residents to pay 2?

marketty

I can't agree on the M3. Only 60km long but has 2 tolls, and pretty easy to dodge which is why its empty. You may think its stupid building a motorway to kells, but it also serves Navan, a large commuter town with no rail service

Chris_5339762

Original plan was 2x tolls on each of the new Main Interurbans (Cork, Limerick, Galway)

Cork: Portlaoise & Fermoy
Limerick: Portlaoise & N18 tunnel (kinda applies)
Galway: Enfield & Athenry

Waterford wasn't included for probably political reasons although one could feasibly have been put north of Carlow I guess.

billie1b

veryangryman wrote: »

M7 probably should be further west as it's unfair to cork residents to pay 2 tolls to Dublin.

What about the residents in Dublin that live North of the M50, they have to pay 3 tolls to Cork, thats more unfair to be honest

veryangryman

MYB wrote: »

Yet fair for Galway residents to pay 2?

I covered that fact in the rest of my post. Yes 2 tolls are pushing it for any trip.

M50 has been marketed as a bypass of Dublin plus the expensive bridge etc makes that one justifiable, even allowing for a trip to cork. If I could change it I would make it free but make a congestion charge for those driving inside of the M50.

There are always unlucky people depending where your based. For instance those going north drogheda to rathcormac

hawkwind23

get back to your work!
we cant have a populous being idle and musing on stealth taxes and corruption within the government and companies that own them.
get back to x factor and shopping for tat in the sales
everything is under control , trust us to do everything for the general good on the populous and not for short term gains......

or as Bill Hicks put it


“Go back to bed, America. Your government has figured out how it all transpired. Go back to bed, America. Your government is in control again. Here. Here's American Gladiators. Watch this, shut up. Go back to bed, America. Here is American Gladiators. Here is 56 channels of it! Watch these pituitary retards bang their ****ing skulls together and congratulate you on living in the land of freedom. Here you go, America! You are free to do what we tell you! You are free to do what we tell you!”

Carawaystick

veryangryman wrote: »

I covered that fact in the rest of my post. Yes 2 tolls are pushing it for any trip.

M50 has been marketed as a bypass of Dublin plus the expensive bridge etc makes that one justifiable

There are 4 bridges on the A9 in France, from le Boulou up to the border with Spain, in much more inaccessible terrain, with longer spans and a higher deck-to-ground height. It's about twice the distance from n3 to n4 and it costs 60 cents

I remember the price for the second westlink bridge being <30m

veryangryman

Carawaystick wrote: »

There are 4 bridges on the A9 in France, from le Boulou up to the border with Spain, in much more inaccessible terrain, with longer spans and a higher deck-to-ground height. It's about twice the distance from n3 to n4 and it costs 60 cents

I remember the price for the second westlink bridge being <30m

Give me Irish tolls over French any day of the week. Unit cost of each toll is huge there. You mention a nice exception there and that's fair enough but very get you good elsewhere.

grimbergen

Carawaystick wrote: »

There are 4 bridges on the A9 in France, from le Boulou up to the border with Spain, in much more inaccessible terrain, with longer spans and a higher deck-to-ground height. It's about twice the distance from n3 to n4 and it costs 60 cents

I remember the price for the second westlink bridge being <30m

Ridiculous comparison. You conveniently forget to mention the many other bridges in France which can be north of 5-10 euro to cross. Give me Irish tolls any day.

AugustusMinimus

The Watergrasshill toll is allegedly to cover the cost of the bridge at Fermoy.

However, even if you don't go over the bridge, you must still pay the toll if you stay on the motorway after Watergrasshill. The bridge itself isn't exactly a masterpiece. Nothing more than a legged bridge across the Blackwater valley which really isn't that impressive.

Carawaystick

veryangryman wrote: »

Give me Irish tolls over French any day of the week. Unit cost of each toll is huge there. You mention a nice exception there and that's fair enough but very get you good elsewhere.

It's about 1150 km from Roscoff to Le Perthus and it's about 63 euros in tolls
About €0.18 per km
It's 216 km from Dublin airport to Galway city and 7.90 in tolls giving a cost per km of €0.26

It's 3 tolls on each route, but there's no motor tax in France

_Kaiser_

marketty wrote: »

I can't agree on the M3. Only 60km long but has 2 tolls, and pretty easy to dodge which is why its empty. You may think its stupid building a motorway to kells, but it also serves Navan, a large commuter town with no rail service

+1.. it also serves the edge of Cavan and I couldn't have gotten back to work without it a few years ago as the job was back in Dublin.

2 tolls on it is ridiculous though but not so much as the "deal" that was done so that if the toll operators don't make x, the taxpayer will pay them y in compensation.

Yet another example of the "risk-free" investment policy in Ireland.

veryangryman

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

+1.. it also serves the edge of Cavan and I couldn't have gotten back to work without it a few years ago as the job was back in Dublin.

2 tolls on it is ridiculous though but not so much as the "deal" that was done so that if the toll operators don't make x, the taxpayer will pay them y in compensation.

Yet another example of the "risk-free" investment policy in Ireland.

Governments policy on this was daft, but I guess they wouldn't have got the investment otherwise (who is going to take a risk on a Motorway that is essentiallly commuter-only - at least it did get built).

I'm a fan of paying for what we use when we use it (so long as its not doubly taxed). This road is of use to I cant imagine more than 5% of the population so should be financed by those who benefit from it, hence good idea tolling. I would love an M55 and M61 near Athlone and would gladly pay tolls for them. Of course we would end up with the taxpayer footing it with this risk-free policy the gov use/used.

mydiscworld

I've always been surprised you can drive from Dublin to Kilkenny or Waterford toll free

serfboard

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

2 tolls on it is ridiculous though but not so much as the "deal" that was done so that if the toll operators don't make x, the taxpayer will pay them y in compensation.

And who was the Minister for Transport at the time that deal was done? Unsurprisingly enough he's from Navan :rolleyes:

The motorway would not have been built without that deal.

A similar one was put in place for the Shannon Tunnel as well.

One was not put in place for the Galway->Ballinasloe M6, and the (private sector) consortium is losing money on it.

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

billie1b

draiochtanois wrote: »

Slap motor tax, 3rd party insurance and tolls on motor fuel and end abolish all of them. & abolish agricultural diesel


Faster journeys, roads that get built get utilised
No more motor tax avoiders, less paper work and hassle.
No more uninsured drivers.
Gardai can concentrate on more important things.

Would you believe muppet head Kenny said if they do it that way they will lose out in motor tax revenue as they wont make as much from it on petrol. I fully agree that it should be included in the price of petrol or the insurance companies should include it your insurance costs and you can pay it monthly over ten months with your insurance or all in one lump sum with your insurance every year, that way you cant insure your car without tax and vice versa

ardmacha

billie1b wrote: »

Would you believe muppet head Kenny said if they do it that way they will lose out in motor tax revenue as they wont make as much from it on petrol. I fully agree that it should be included in the price of petrol or the insurance companies should include it your insurance costs and you can pay it monthly over ten months with your insurance or all in one lump sum with your insurance every year, that way you cant insure your car without tax and vice versa

This kind of half baked comment is posted here 100 times a year. It is quite simple, unless this is done on an All Ireland basis, at least, it is nonsense.

billie1b

ardmacha wrote: »

This kind of half baked comment is posted here 100 times a year. It is quite simple, unless this is done on an All Ireland basis, at least, it is nonsense.

Explain why its half baked? It is two very simple solutions to an on-going problem, it would obviously be done through the whole Republic, restricting it to only certain counties would be ridiculous

Sheldons Brain

billie1b wrote: »

Explain why its half baked? It is two very simple solutions to an on-going problem, it would obviously be done through the whole Republic, restricting it to only certain counties would be ridiculous

Presumably he means that if you load a lot of insurance, motor tax and the like on petrol then there won't be actually be any petrol sold in the Republic.

billie1b

Sheldons Brain wrote: »

Presumably he means that if you load a lot of insurance, motor tax and the like on petrol then there won't be actually be any petrol sold in the Republic.

No I said the Insurance companies should sell it with your insurance, example, you renew your insurance every April, it costs your €400, your tax is €400, you pay a premium of €800 upfront or pay a deposit of €200 and the remainder over of it over ten months, €60 per month.
You pay a deposit or in full and recieve your discs within a couple of days

BrianBoru00

Carawaystick wrote: »

It's about 1150 km from Roscoff to Le Perthus and it's about 63 euros in tolls
About €0.18 per km
It's 216 km from Dublin airport to Galway city and 7.90 in tolls giving a cost per km of €0.26

It's 3 tolls on each route, but there's no motor tax in France

Valencia - Barcelona is 350km and €40 in tolls...

Carawaystick

Carawaystick wrote: »

It's about 1150 km from Roscoff to Le Perthus and it's about 63 euros in tolls
About €0.18 per km
It's 216 km from Dublin airport to Galway city and 7.90 in tolls giving a cost per km of €0.26

It's 3 tolls on each route, but there's no motor tax in France

You've got that the wrong way around. It's 18.25 km/€ in France and 27.34 km/€ in Ireland so it actually works out much cheaper in Ireland.

If you want to do cost per km it's 5.4c per kilometre in France and 3.7c per kilometre in Ireland.

Either way, do the sums right and it's the same result, the French one works out about 50% more expensive than the Irish one.

munchkin_utd

Deleted User wrote: »

You've got that the wrong way around. It's 18.25 km/€ in France and 27.34 km/€ in Ireland so it actually works out much cheaper in Ireland.

If you want to do cost per km it's 5.4c per kilometre in France and 3.7c per kilometre in Ireland.

Either way, do the sums right and it's the same result, the French one works out about 50% more expensive than the Irish one.

I'd say ye are all wrong no matter how you work out the sums for the simple fact that the tolls on the roads in Ireland are only for small sections and the money from them only goes on maintentance/ repayments on that particular small section. The vast majority of motorways are free and are maintained and built thanks to cash from the Revenue commisioners - not your tolls.

If you work it out correctly, for the 37km spin from Enfield to the end of the M4 you are paying 12.7c per km.
If the entire road from Galway to Dublin airport (216 km) was built privately and almost entirely tolled for its upkeep like in France you'd be paying €25.68 to get from Galway to Dublin airport.
Not to mention that its not uncommon around the world for major bridges to be tolled separately, so you'd be looking at a one off fee still for crossing the West link bridge of another couple of euro.

veryangryman

munchkin_utd wrote: »

I'd say ye are all wrong no matter how you work out the sums for the simple fact that the tolls on the roads in Ireland are only for small sections and the money from them only goes on maintentance/ repayments on that particular small section. The vast majority of motorways are free and are maintained and built thanks to cash from the Revenue commisioners - not your tolls.

If you work it out correctly, for the 37km spin from Enfield to the end of the M4 you are paying 12.7c per km.
If the entire road from Galway to Dublin airport (216 km) was built privately and almost entirely tolled for its upkeep like in France you'd be paying €25.68 to get from Galway to Dublin airport.
Not to mention that its not uncommon around the world for major bridges to be tolled separately, so you'd be looking at a one off fee still for crossing the West link bridge of another couple of euro.

Its still a fair boll0cks to avoid them if your doing an inter urban journey. M50 avoidance for instance is only learned through experience (and the alt routes arent pretty)

munchkin_utd

veryangryman wrote: »

Its still a fair boll0cks to avoid them if your doing an inter urban journey. M50 avoidance for instance is only learned through experience (and the alt routes arent pretty)

aigh, but my point is that you arent paying for all, or even most, of the 210km of road involved in getting from Galway to Dublin.
You are paying for a small section of that road which is tolled so you cannot say a toll is €x per km when the km figure you are using is gigantically boosted by roads which are not tolled, nor being cared for by the toll company.
And I mean that in comparing with other countries where nearly all of the road you travel would be tolled like say in France or Italy which charge per km per use or most of the east european countries where you'll need a special toll road sticker to use.
(which again is MUCH different to Ireland where the amount of road actually being tolled and maintained by toll companies is relatively small)

but back on topic, I still am at a loss as to why certain sections of road were built during the boom as toll roads, and others built at the same time simply paid for in cash from the government surplus (i.e. cash bonanza from reciepts from stamp duty on house sales).

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

serfboard

munchkin_utd wrote: »

I still am at a loss as to why certain sections of road were built during the boom as toll roads, and others built at the same time simply paid for in cash from the government surplus (i.e. cash bonanza from reciepts from stamp duty on house sales).

The usual tradeoff between finance and politics.

IMO, if finances had allowed it they would have built them all toll-free. They didn't so some of them had to be built with tolls. OK then - which ones?

The following is guesswork on my part, but it's perfectly logical.

The busiest sections are easiest to sell as PPPs so let's sell them. Thus, M7 before the M7/M8 split, M4 before the M4/M6 split, and we somehow managed to convince the private sector that the M6 approach to Galway would also be busy, so that gets included.

Engineering challenges pushing up cost are also a factor it seems - i.e. where there were large bridges across valleys or tunnels those were chosen as well, since the upfront cost would be prohibitive - thus M50 over Liffey, M8 over Blackwater, M1 over Boyne and N18 under Shannon.

That leaves two anomalies - why is there no toll to Waterford and why are there two tolls to Kells? Here's the politics kicking in - the Minister for Waterford (Martin Cullen) wants a motorway. Traffic volume can't sell it as a PPP, tolls are likely to be unpopular, and there's still enough money in the kitty (in office up til 2007), so it gets built with public money.

Similarly, the Minister for Meath (Noel Dempsey) wants a motorway. Traffic volumes can't justify a PPP, and there's not enough money in the kitty, so it'll have to be PPP with a guaranteed traffic volume. That puts pressure on future governments to come up with that money, but dammit, I don't care about that, because I will get re-elected as the man who "fickshed the roads" - until of course, I realise that we've screwed the country, I won't be getting re-elected and there's a heck of a package on offer if I retire now.

omicron

serfboard wrote: »

Similarly, the Minister for Meath (Noel Dempsey) wants a motorway. Traffic volumes can't justify a PPP, and there's not enough money in the kitty, so it'll have to be PPP with a guaranteed traffic volume. That puts pressure on future governments to come up with that money, but dammit, I don't care about that, because I will get re-elected as the man who "fickshed the roads" - until of course, I realise that we've screwed the country, I won't be getting re-elected and there's a heck of a package on offer if I retire now.

People tend to ignore that the most expensive individual part of the Waterford motorway project was the bridge in Waterford which is tolled.

Also I can't think of any part of M9 which could be tolled without a huge avoidance rate, barring possibly somewhere north of Kilcullen.