What is the point of real-time information?

AngryLips

So I was using public transport on Christmas Eve and Stephen's Day. On the evening of Christmas Eve, while Dublin Bus services were still running, none of the real-time info screens were operational. Today, Stephen's Day, while the Dart was allegedly running a Saturday service (I say allegedly because the one scheduled train I was waiting for was a no-show) the real-time screens were stuck and giving completely inaccurate info. Given that real-time service information is probably most useful on days like Stephen's Day and Christmas Eve when services are limited, why do we even bother investing in such infrastructure when the services they provide don't work when we need them most?

AlekSmart

Definitely a valid question.

AFAIAA,on Christmas Eve,the relevant raw data was supplied from BAC's system,however there did not appear to be any supporting infrastructure operational on DCC's side ....;)

noelfirl

AlekSmart wrote: »

AFAIAA,on Christmas Eve,the relevant raw data was supplied from BAC's system,however there did not appear to be any supporting infrastructure operational on DCC's side ....;)

I checked on Christmas eve on the DB website on my phone when the screens were down, no real time info was being given, say the problem was more widespread then the screens. Have to say, I thought the seasonal information notices being given by the real time screens this year were better than in previous years, with the caveat that today they were displaying notices about the upcoming Saturday timetables operating over the next few weekdays, while failing to notify that buses were running to a Sunday schedule today.

Losty Dublin

AngryLips wrote: »

Today, Stephen's Day, while the Dart was allegedly running a Saturday service (I say allegedly because the one scheduled train I was waiting for was a no-show) the real-time screens were stuck and giving completely inaccurate info.

There wasn't any DART's on today. Why would the real time info show one to be running?

ArmaniJeanss

AngryLips wrote: »

Given that real-time service information is probably most useful on days like Stephen's Day and Christmas Eve when services are limited, why do we even bother investing in such infrastructure when the services they provide don't work when we need them most?

If it works to an acceptable level on 363 of 365 days of the year, then such infrastructure seems a perfectly fine investment.
Like it'd be one thing if you came in querying why the system wasn't working on Christmas Eve (and I agree it should be working on that day) but to extrapolate that the system is a waste of money because of this is basically a complete over-reaction on your part.

RTPI is one of the most positive changes introduced in transport in Dublin.

AngryLips

Losty Dublin wrote: »

There wasn't any DART's on today. Why would the real time info show one to be running?

According to the IE website there was a Saturday service

AngryLips

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

If it works to an acceptable level on 363 of 365 days of the year, then such infrastructure seems a perfectly fine investment.
Like it'd be one thing if you came in querying why the system wasn't working on Christmas Eve (and I agree it should be working on that day) but to extrapolate that the system is a waste of money because of this is basically a complete over-reaction on your part.

RTPI is one of the most positive changes introduced in transport in Dublin.

My point is that RTPI is most useful during unusual or exceptional circumstances when services are not operating as normal or when services are limited. On the two days of the year when this is most certainly the case, and when it has been known that this is the case (because Jesus wasn't born last year) the service was down. Christmas must've taken CIE by surprise. Also, I didn't say it was a waste of money, I'm just making a point that you seem to be intentionally trying to misunderstand, you troll.

noelfirl

AngryLips wrote: »

According to the IE website there was a Saturday service

Information breakdown somewhere...

http://www.irishrail.ie/cat_news.jsp?i=4964&p=116&n=237

Wednesday 25th & Thursday 26th December 2013

No Services

KD345

Perhaps switching it off on Christmas Eve was necessary to avoid confusion. Services ended at 9pm, but the RTPI service works on scheduled departures which then change to real time once the bus becomes active.

Maybe a different schedule was in place for the evening which didn't work with what was programmed into the system.

I agree, it was frustrating for it to be switched off on the app and screens, but maybe there was a reason for this. I generally find the service to be reliable. It was certainly worth the investment!

devnull

There was no information on either of the Apps, Street Signs or RTPI.ie which suggests the information from DB was either not there, or not being pushed to any of these.

ArmaniJeanss

AngryLips wrote: »

Also, I didn't say it was a waste of money, I'm just making a point that you seem to be intentionally trying to misunderstand, you troll.

Well, your thread title was 'what is the point of it?' and you queried why we bothered investing in such infrastructure, so it seemed you considered it a waste? Also just because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them a troll you know?

AngryLips wrote: »

My point is that RTPI is most useful during unusual or exceptional circumstances when services are not operating as normal or when services are limited. On the two days of the year when this is most certainly the case...

Nope its at its most useful at peak times on Monday to Friday working days, when it is providing information to the most people.
Its still useful at 'unusual times', but its much more important it works at peak times.

Five Lamps

KD345 wrote: »

Perhaps switching it off on Christmas Eve was necessary to avoid confusion. Services ended at 9pm, but the RTPI service works on scheduled departures which then change to real time once the bus becomes active.

Maybe a different schedule was in place for the evening which didn't work with what was programmed into the system.

I agree, it was frustrating for it to be switched off on the app and screens, but maybe there was a reason for this. I generally find the service to be reliable. It was certainly worth the investment!

Surely they must have built these scenarios into the algorithm that they use? I have noticed that the real time system suffers when the exceptional situations occur. Surely it's not hard to build into the system the schedules for non-standard days? Were corners along the way?

hfallada

They are useful as a lot of bus drivers seem to follow their own timetable. On my route they ignore the one set by CIE, but are at the stops at the same time every day. Real-time displays the drivers timetable and not the useless CIE one

LXFlyer

Before this thread develops into any more conspiracy theories, there was a problem with the Dublin Bus RTPI system on Christmas Eve - they had a notice on the website, twitter and facebook advising that they were trying to fix it.

Nothing anymore sinister than that.

Prior to the IT issues, the system was displaying Saturday times correctly.

As a previous poster has highlighted, there were no trains running at all today and the website clearly says that.

AngryLips

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Nope its at its most useful at peak times on Monday to Friday working days, when it is providing information to the most people.
Its still useful at 'unusual times', but its much more important it works at peak times.

Ok well let's just recognise that we don't agree on this and move on because, in my opinion, I think the need for reliable information is inverse to the provision of a reliable service whereas you think it is most needed when most people are using PT.

Five Lamps wrote: »

Surely they must have built these scenarios into the algorithm that they use? I have noticed that the real time system suffers when the exceptional situations occur.

Ya, it seems to be those times when a non-standard timetable is in force for whatever reason that is when real-time info seems to be most inconsistent. I wish I can give specifics but I remember times in the past when I've noticed it not working and thinking to myself "...of all days for it to be out of action", though at the time it didn't directly affected me.

LXFlyer

To just explain how RTPI works - it reads from the full working schedule for each individual departure that the Dublin Bus schedulers have compiled - these are all available on www.a-b.ie. Until about 5 minutes prior to departure, the system will read from the schedule, then it will switch to live. The driver keys in the departure, and the system looks at where the bus is on the route and applies the running times for that particular departure as per the schedule.

If there is an unscheduled extra departure, it won't appear - it needs a schedule to read from.

If there is a driver changeover en route, the bus will disappear from the system when the first driver signs off until the new driver signs in.

Either way - it was a system issue on Tuesday OP - nothing more than that. It happens from time to time.

Victor

AngryLips wrote: »

Today, Stephen's Day, while the Dart was allegedly running a Saturday service (I say allegedly because the one scheduled train I was waiting for was a no-show)

http://www.irishrail.ie/cat_news.jsp?i=4964&p=116&n=237

Wednesday 25th & Thursday 26th December 2013

No Services

AngryLips wrote: »

the real-time screens were stuck and giving completely inaccurate info.

The Irish Rail displays? What were they saying?

KD345 wrote: »

Perhaps switching it off on Christmas Eve was necessary to avoid confusion. Services ended at 9pm, but the RTPI service works on scheduled departures which then change to real time once the bus becomes active.

Maybe a different schedule was in place for the evening which didn't work with what was programmed into the system.

The system can be easily programmed with a modified schedule. It could probably deal with dozens of modified schedules if you wanted it to.

Five Lamps wrote: »

Surely they must have built these scenarios into the algorithm that they use? I have noticed that the real time system suffers when the exceptional situations occur. Surely it's not hard to build into the system the schedules for non-standard days?

Were corners along the way?

If you mean "Were corners cut along the way?" then the answer is "We don't do different" - © CIÉ Group.

More seriously, the system isn't magic, it needs to be told when something fundamentally different is being done, e.g. the curtailed Christmas Eve schedule, a Saturday schedule on a weekday or particular stops not being served.

Certainly the NTA journey planner is currently loaded with a generic timetable that isn't even day specific (8-31 December and a separate 1 January only timetable) so who know what the RTPI was given.

AngryLips

Victor wrote: »

The Irish Rail displays? what were they saying?

I must have been mistaken about Dart services today but the screen at the station was showing a Howth-bound Dart in 20mins and another one in 22mins. After a few minutes I noticed it wasn't updating.

ArmaniJeanss

lxflyer wrote: »

If there is an unscheduled extra departure, it won't appear - it needs a schedule to read from.

I don't really see the logic of this - if the driver keys in thats it's a 46E, why should it matter that there is no 46E scheduled at that time. What the driver has typed should override the schedule.

lxflyer wrote: »

If there is a driver changeover en route, the bus will disappear from the system when the first driver signs off until the new driver signs in.

Again I don't see the logic in this - the driver has set it to be a 46E, it should remain a 46E until such time as someone changes it. That particular driver leaving the system really shouldn't be enough to make it disappear, only if someone actually changes it to another bus should it disappear. (I'm assuming that 99% of the time when a driver signs off at a destination other than that which they have entered as a final destination that it implies a driver changeover).

Without knowing the actual programming involved, i'd have thought that the second one in particular is a bug thats easily fixed.

LXFlyer

The system has to have a schedule to read from and develop predictive times. Each scheduled departure has an individual schedule. They all vary based on the time of day due to the different traffic conditions.

When a driver signs in he enters the specific departure time and the route so that the system knows which schedule to pick up the predictive running times from.

Hence when a driver logs off (to change for example) there is no bus live in the system for that specific departure. Hence it disappears.

Bizarrely enough the system is not some all seeing oracle of knowledge - it does need to read the times from somewhere!!

Dravokivich

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

Again I don't see the logic in this - the driver has set it to be a 46E, it should remain a 46E until such time as someone changes it. That particular driver leaving the system really shouldn't be enough to make it disappear, only if someone actually changes it to another bus should it disappear. (I'm assuming that 99% of the time when a driver signs off at a destination other than that which they have entered as a final destination that it implies a driver changeover).

Without knowing the actual programming involved, i'd have thought that the second one in particular is a bug thats easily fixed.

But that's what happens. When the driver signs off the bus, it appears to reset the service status, going by how Lxflyer is describing it. It's not that much different to 2 people sharing the use of a pc. When User A logs off to Allow User B log on, User B will have to reload any applications needed.

LXFlyer

Just to point out that the system is correctly reading from the Saturday schedule today (as it was on Tuesday before the system issues arose).

Just so people can understand this - I've attached the full 46a working timetable as a pdf file - you can clearly see the differing running times throughout the day.

ArmaniJeanss

lxflyer wrote: »

The system has to have a schedule to read from and develop predictive times. Each scheduled departure has an individual schedule. They all vary based on the time of day due to the different traffic conditions.

When a driver signs in he enters the specific departure time and the route so that the system knows which schedule to pick up the predictive running times from.

Hence when a driver logs off (to change for example) there is no bus live in the system for that specific departure. Hence it disappears.

Bizarrely enough the system is not some all seeing oracle of knowledge - it does need to read the times from somewhere!!

I understand why it happens, I'm just surprised that it seems to be accepted as the correct way to work. To me its clearly a (minor) glitch in the system, no way should the driver leaving the system disappear the bus. To piggyback Drakovichs example it sounds like the PC is being shut down and restarted rather than a log-out/log-in.

Does the same thing happen with trains? Presumably there are driver changes on enterprise/intercity but I've never heard of the train disappearing from station displays further down the line whilst the changeover happens.

LXFlyer

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I understand why it happens, I'm just surprised that it seems to be accepted as the correct way to work. To me its clearly a (minor) glitch in the system, no way should the driver leaving the system disappear the bus. To piggyback Drakovichs example it sounds like the PC is being shut down and restarted rather than a log-out/log-in.

Does the same thing happen with trains? Presumably there are driver changes on enterprise/intercity but I've never heard of the train disappearing from station displays further down the line whilst the changeover happens.

Effectively, the ticket machine controls the information sent. It needs a driver to be signed in to function.

The same doesn't apply on trains - the first driver would enter the train departure code into the system - it's not driver specific.

The first point in post #20 above explains why unscheduled departures do not appear on RTPI.

goingnowhere

No on train equipment is required for real-time on Irish Rail, works fine with steam trains if needed

LXFlyer

Yes - it works via track circuits.

dfx-

Was the problem on Tuesday that it was operating a Saturday timetable? The RTPI units were all over the place until midday with wrong buses

Dravokivich

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I understand why it happens, I'm just surprised that it seems to be accepted as the correct way to work. To me its clearly a (minor) glitch in the system, no way should the driver leaving the system disappear the bus. To piggyback Drakovichs example it sounds like the PC is being shut down and restarted rather than a log-out/log-in.

Does the same thing happen with trains? Presumably there are driver changes on enterprise/intercity but I've never heard of the train disappearing from station displays further down the line whilst the changeover happens.

I wouldn't say it's a glitch, as it's apparently a design element. The service running on the bus is to be selected by the operator, ie the driver logged in. The issue with the implementation, is driver changing during a service.

GTE

AngryLips wrote: »

Given that real-time service information is probably most useful on days like Stephen's Day and Christmas Eve when services are limited, why do we even bother investing in such infrastructure when the services they provide don't work when we need them most?

The general term "Given x, question about y" is a very useful one, especially in Junior and Leaving Certificate examinations, however x must be fact. I think your opinion is spoiling the question though I would more than welcome some proof that the real time system was developed and rolled out to service the days of service which are in a minority where I would feel people would be more likely to check timetables of the routes they wish to use, but that is opinion so no given here.

Annasopra

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

If it works to an acceptable level on 363 of 365 days of the year, then such infrastructure seems a perfectly fine investment.

It doesn't though. I have often been waiting at a bus stop with something like the following scenario

145; 5 minutes, 2 minutes (still waiting - 10 minutes later) 1 minute, 2 minutes, 1 minute, 2 minutes, 1 minute (bus arrives 15 minutes later)

hatchets mcgovern

AngryLips wrote: »

So I was using public transport on Christmas Eve and Stephen's Day. On the evening of Christmas Eve, while Dublin Bus services were still running, none of the real-time info screens were operational. Today, Stephen's Day, while the Dart was allegedly running a Saturday service (I say allegedly because the one scheduled train I was waiting for was a no-show) the real-time screens were stuck and giving completely inaccurate info. Given that real-time service information is probably most useful on days like Stephen's Day and Christmas Eve when services are limited, why do we even bother investing in such infrastructure when the services they provide don't work when we need them most?

Could you not have just gone online? My God, its down one or two days in a year and some people make a fuss!

Annasopra

hatchets mcgovern wrote: »

Could you not have just gone online? My God, its down one or two days in a year and some people make a fuss!

The Dublin Bus RTPI system wasn't working online

hatchets mcgovern

mango salsa wrote: »

The Dublin Bus RTPI system wasn't working online

Well then wait or get a taxi! Every system in the world has its off days. No point starting a thread on boards about it..

AlekSmart

hatchets mcgovern wrote: »

Well then wait or get a taxi! Every system in the world has its off days. No point starting a thread on boards about it..

I tend to concur with Hatchet's robustness,however in thge case of the RTPI I DO see something worth givin'out about.

With the physical implementation of the Poles n stuff all now completed and the things powered up and working,what remains is VERY localized Data Input,capable of being controlled from a device the size of a matchbox.

WHY,for example the On-Street Units cannot display specific curtailed route destinatons is beyond me,is it even beyond Bill Gates I wonder ?

Operating a curtailed service,when the On-Street Displays show it as Full Destination is,I can assure you,an excercise in human interaction taken to it's absolute limit !!!

LXFlyer

mango salsa wrote: »

It doesn't though. I have often been waiting at a bus stop with something like the following scenario

145; 5 minutes, 2 minutes (still waiting - 10 minutes later) 1 minute, 2 minutes, 1 minute, 2 minutes, 1 minute (bus arrives 15 minutes later)

And perhaps the buses got stuck in traffic?

As I said above - the system reads from a schedule - it's not an all seeing oracle of knowledge that can factor in unexpected delays.

MGWR

AngryLips wrote: »

So I was using public transport on Christmas Eve and Stephen's Day. On the evening of Christmas Eve, while Dublin Bus services were still running, none of the real-time info screens were operational. Today, Stephen's Day, while the Dart was allegedly running a Saturday service (I say allegedly because the one scheduled train I was waiting for was a no-show) the real-time screens were stuck and giving completely inaccurate info. Given that real-time service information is probably most useful on days like Stephen's Day and Christmas Eve when services are limited, why do we even bother investing in such infrastructure when the services they provide don't work when we need them most?

I misunderstood the title. I thought you were questioning the concept of providing real-time information, rather than complaining about CIE's failure to provide it. (Rather like their failure to provide proper QBCs as advertised for about two decades.)

cast_iron

lxflyer wrote: »

As I said above - the system reads from a schedule - it's not an all seeing oracle of knowledge

So if an unscheduled bus takes off at 9am, for example. Why can't the system realise it's now 9am, and pick the schedule that's closes to that time and route? No oracle involved there.

Also, on a driver change, why can't the system realise it is the same ticket machine, therefore the same bus running the same route to the schedule of the previous driver?

For whatever reason, the system can't/doesn't do the above. A bit of a clear oversight, I would have said.

lorrieq

You know that it does work 90% of the time? I don't really see this 10% downtime as a reason to question the point of it. The point of it is we have real time information 90% of the time rather than as you are proposing 0%.

coylemj

While I think RTPI is brilliant and it does function correctly 95% of the time, there does seem to be a weak point in the system whereby if a particular service comes to a complete stop or an individual bus does not run, the RTPI system will just rumble on as if the normal service was operating when it is not.

Dublin Bus has a habit of cancelling individual bus departures without telling the people who run the RTPI service early enough. I have often been standing at a bus stop watching it count down the minutes for a particular service to arrive until about 2 minutes before the forecast arrival when it suddenly disappears off the screen.

Good service but room for improvement.

SilverLiningOK

As far as I can see, it looks like the IT department were not consulted about how the RTPI/apps was to deal with the holiday period. The use Saturday/Sunday timetables on weekdays would have to be set/programmed into the system. Somebody forgot to implement this or include it in the planning todo list. Pity about that as it gives the begrudgers/knockers/moaners something to go on about.

LXFlyer

The system is displaying Saturday times correctly.

cdebru

lxflyer wrote: »

The system is displaying Saturday times correctly.

It is now, but I think it was a DB feck up on Christmas eve the rtpi machine on the buses were working on a Monday to Friday timetable. So when a driver entered the route and duty number it was displaying the information for a normal Tuesday presumably this was the information the on street rtpi was displaying.
So they switched the on street RTPI off till it was rectified.

stop

RTPI not behaving well at the moment, no buses showing on Rathmines qbc northbound

Alun

Some funny things happening yesterday on D'Olier Street. Waiting for a 145, and the RTPI display was only showing one in over 20 mins time, can't remember exactly. Whipped out the smartphone and the app was showing that one plus an earlier one in 6 minutes which actually showed up more or less on time. It never appeared on the on street display. Surely these two things are fed with the same data?

TheBandicoot

Alun wrote: »

Surely these two things are fed with the same data?

That's the thing, they're not, due to some inter agency wrangling I don't quite understand between DB, NTA, TFI(?) and DCC.

Thargor

No data at all on the app now.

Muahahaha

Can I ask how the system actually works, like I understand that the driver logs in to begin the journey. Once it is underway is there a GPS system tracking the bus or is the bus just logged onto known journey times? What happens if a bus gets bogged down in traffic, will the screens at the bus stops along the route tell commuters that it is delayed by 5 or 10 minutes or are they just left guessing?

Five Lamps

Muahahaha wrote: »

Can I ask how the system actually works, like I understand that the driver logs in to begin the journey. Once it is underway is there a GPS system tracking the bus or is the bus just logged onto known journey times? What happens if a bus gets bogged down in traffic, will the screens at the bus stops along the route tell commuters that it is delayed by 5 or 10 minutes or are they just left guessing?

Yes, if a bus stops or slows down then the minutes to arrival increases (and vice versa). You often see this happen when at a stop.

They aren't left guessing if there's a delay, they just look at the display.

LXFlyer

Muahahaha wrote: »

Can I ask how the system actually works, like I understand that the driver logs in to begin the journey. Once it is underway is there a GPS system tracking the bus or is the bus just logged onto known journey times? What happens if a bus gets bogged down in traffic, will the screens at the bus stops along the route tell commuters that it is delayed by 5 or 10 minutes or are they just left guessing?

Have a look at my posts 16 and 22 above. The system applies the scheduled running times for the rest of the route based on the GPS Location of the bus at any given time.

If the bus gets stuck, then the times will remain unchanged until it starts moving again.

Mrs OBumble

Does anyone know how well the system is working in Cork?

In Galway, the poles / signs eventually got installed (months later than promised) but for the most part they are nothing more than fancy timetables. And even then, they get it wrong quite often (eg I can be standing at a stop knowing that a 409 is due in about 5-10 mins, but the sign says that the next ons isn't for for 30+ minutes - and most often the bus turns up as expected.)

Mysteriously there is one exception: there is one 403 service in the morning that it routinely about 15 mins behind schedule, and I've observed the RTPI signs do a very good job of predicting it's actual times. (There may be other exceptions, but I haven't see/heard of 'em.).

And here the real-time info in the Journey Planner app basically appears to be nothing more than a glorified timetable.

stop

RTPI signs not showing data at the moment, online is fine.