Why is emigration always viewed as a bad thing?

Pen.Island

First off, there are people who HAVE to leave to get work. People with mortgages , kids and loans who can't get a job because of their lack of qualifications or experience or just plain no jobs in the sector.

We all see these programmes at christmas, returning home from abroad. How many of these choose to go abroad though? Or the ones that have chosen to stay abroad?

I was offered a job abroad earlier this year and almost took it. But I chose the one in Ireland as I preferred the field it was in. Had I accepted then I would have been added to the statistic of being one of the 1000's "forced" to leave the country for work.

I would have happily taken the job abroad. Get my year or two experience and come back and get a job here.

Emigrating isn't so bad, you get to experience different cultures and people that many won't get to do. And unless you go to america or Oz than you're never too far away from home.

I know plenty who have gone abroad and they're loving it.

I think the Irish like to pity themselves sometimes as in "I've been forced to leave the country..my heart is broken".

Not expecting this to be popular.

LordSutch

Here's my answer from another 'similar' thread . . . .

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=88118705&postcount=13

And to answer your question directly . . . I don't know why its viewed as a bad thing.

oceanman

I would say some choose it but that majority are forced to go for work reasons. but you are right, emigration is not such a bad thing, for one it lessens the dole queue and that's no bad thing..

Lenin Skynard

Pen.Island wrote: »

I was offered a job abroad earlier this year and almost took it. But I chose the one in Ireland as I preferred the field it was in.

Can't beat a bit of road frontage.

padma

A lot of people Love Ireland and have deep roots here. To get to the stage where you would consider leaving is a terrible thing for many people and they wouldn't do it if they didn't have to, that's why there is a feeling of being "forced" to. Add to this getting letters off the department of social protection suggesting you to emigrate doesn't help at all.

250,000 people emigrating in the past 4/5 years is massive considering it would be the population of Cork, limerick and Galway or close there abouts.

BNMC

Agree OP. It's not like it was many years ago where people had to choose between living in poverty in Ireland or go abroad to improve their standard of living. No unemployed person is going to starve or freeze to death in modern Ireland mainly because our Social Welfare system is extremely generous compared to other countries.

Afroshack

Pen.Island wrote: »

First off, there are people who HAVE to leave to get work. People with mortgages , kids and loans who can't get a job because of their lack of qualifications or experience or just plain no jobs in the sector.

We all see these programmes at christmas, returning home from abroad. How many of these choose to go abroad though? Or the ones that have chosen to stay abroad?

I was offered a job abroad earlier this year and almost took it. But I chose the one in Ireland as I preferred the field it was in. Had I accepted then I would have been added to the statistic of being one of the 1000's "forced" to leave the country for work.

I would have happily taken the job abroad. Get my year or two experience and come back and get a job here.

Emigrating isn't so bad, you get to experience different cultures and people that many won't get to do. And unless you go to america or Oz than you're never too far away from home.

I know plenty who have gone abroad and they're loving it.

I think the Irish like to pity themselves sometimes as in "I've been forced to leave the country..my heart is broken".

Not expecting this to be popular.

I agree. I left in August and it was one of the best choices I have ever made. Granted, I'm only in London and can fly home every few months but I am still pretty much alone and without family in a new city. I wouldn't swap it though, even if I was offered full-time work here in Ireland I'd go back to London and happily see out the rest of my contract. People are just whingers IMO, I think everyone has something wonderful to gain from going abroad for a year or two (not judging people who have had to leave husbands, wives, children, mortgages and ill or elderly parents - in those cases it would be very unfortunate)

DeadHand

From a cold, financial point of view it's an investment going down the drain. The state invested heavily in these people's education and now those skills are being used elsewhere. They are working people whose tax contributions are now going to the coffers of a different state.

More importantly, it weakens the society they leave behind. Those who emigrate are often the best and brightest. They are usually young. A society loses much of it's vibrancy and vitality when it loses a large chunk of it's youth.

The human side is that every emigrant is a son, daughter, boyfriend, girlfriend, husband, wife, a friend, a brother, a mother, a father. Technology is great for keeping in touch, but it's no replacement for having someone near. Their departure will make life more lonely for those they leave behind.

Emigration is not a bad thing. Mass emigration on the scale we've seen in the last few years certainly is.

My name is URL

I don't think people view emigration itself as something that is negative. It's only when it's viewed through the scope of economic turmoil and depression that it brings some negative connotations to it.

Choosing to go off and experience the world or work abroad in an area you love isn't the same as having no other choice but to do so.

Chazz Michael Michaels

DeadHand wrote: »

From a cold, financial point of view it's an investment going down the drain. The state invested heavily in these people's education and now those skills are being used elsewhere. They are working people whose tax contributions are now going to the coffers of a different state.

More importantly, it weakens the society they leave behind. Those who emigrate are often the best and brightest. They are usually young. A society loses much of it's vibrancy and vitality when it loses a large chunk of it's youth.

The human side is that every emigrant is a son, daughter, boyfriend, girlfriend, husband, wife, a friend, a brother, a mother, a father. Technology is great for keeping in touch, but it's no replacement for having someone near. Their departure will make life more lonely for those they leave behind.

Emigration is not a bad thing. Mass emigration on the scale we've seen in the last few years certainly is.

Actually, the majority of émigrés are males with no third level education. Or, more generally, Bob the builders.

LordSutch

DeadHand wrote: »

Emigration is not a bad thing. Mass emigration on the scale we've seen in the last few years certainly is.

Very true, and I get the impression that this 'mass Irish emigration' seems to happen in fifteen to twenty year cycles.

DeadHand

Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »

Actually, the majority of émigrés are males with no third level education. Or, more generally, Bob the builders.

Granted, but they received first and second level educations, healthcare, etc.

Being male and lacking a third level education makes you no less a loss.

Richard Hillman

The vast majority of people that i know have emigrated through choice and life experience rather than necessity.

Chazz Michael Michaels

DeadHand wrote: »

Granted, but they received first and second level educations, healthcare, etc.

Being male and lacking a third level education makes you no less a loss.

Yes, and being put through FAS. However, its been recently established through an esri study that there really is no brain drain occurring. In fact, educated workers are coming to us.

Jagdtiger

I'm just back from a year in New Zealand and I found it to be a great experience, one that I would recommend everyone do while they can.

However, I can see where the negativity about emigration comes from, as there was a time (not to too long ago mind you) when leaving the country meant the possibility of leaving for good. It's all well and grand now being able to jump on a plane and getting back home in a day but this hasn't always been the case.

I think the stigma toward emigration comes down to us from the experiences of past generations in a time when moving to the far side of the Atlantic was akin to going to the Moon, getting there is one thing.

From my experience, I thought it was great. But back home , I'm sure they were all saying "Ah Jaysis, isn't it terrible Father, terrible it is" at having to go. The worst thing about it is the separation which will always be hard

porsche959

DeadHand wrote: »

From a cold, financial point of view it's an investment going down the drain. The state invested heavily in these people's education and now those skills are being used elsewhere. They are working people whose tax contributions are now going to the coffers of a different state.

This has no bearing on the individual decision to emigrate. It isn't an investment down the drain from their personal point of view, often the opposite.

Kettleson

I came back to Ireland in 98 after a good few years working in the UK.

I can remember talking to young lads at that time, all in their mid 20's and probably naively asking them had they ever worked in the UK, to which the astonished replies were "Why the fcu would we ever have to work in the UK?".

Back then,those guys knew nothing other than full employment. And now many will be lucky to still be working and/or living in Ireland.

If I was a parent whose kids had to emigrate then I'd be well piss*d with the corruption and incompetency that brought it about. Many of us who were shipped out of Ireland in the 80's to find work never thought it could happen again, but it did, and we were all mugged mugs.

But travel is a good thing. I'd tell any young person to get out of Ireland and see the world. I do however resent the necessity and reason for it.

Chazz Michael Michaels

From the IT

The number of college graduates employed in the economy has risen in each of the last six years despite the economic downturn. According to research from the Economic and Social Research Institute, there has also been a net inward migration of third-level graduates over the crisis period.

The findings run counter to the prevailing narrative that the recession had resulted in a massive brain drain of highly educated workers.
The research also suggests that the recent pattern of emigration differs significantly from that experienced in the 1980s, where it tended to be concentrated among those with the highest level of educational qualifications. Between the start of the recession in 2007 and its low point in mid-2012, total employment in the economy fell by about 16 per cent.

The ESRI’s research, contained in its latest quarterly economic commentary, suggests that the pattern of change in the labour market has been “very different” depending on the educational qualifications of the participants. In spite of the huge upheaval, employment of college graduates rose throughout the crisis period, growing by an average of 2.8 per cent a year.

The number of people employed in the economy with third-level qualifications is now 12 per cent higher than it was before the recession struck in 2007. The picture is, however, remarkably different for those without a Leaving Cert qualification. Employment among this category of worker, many of whom were employed in the construction sector, has fallen by 50 per cent since 2007.

Employment of those with a Leaving Cert but without a third-level qualification is also down substantially – by about 20 per cent. The pattern of change in this category is different from those without a Leaving Cert in that the most rapid fall occurred in 2009 and then stabilised, so that employment today is similar to what is was in 2010.
The research, which utilised figures in the Central Statistics Office’s most recent Quarterly National Household Survey, showed the population of people aged between 15-64 with less than a Leaving Certificate qualification fell by 17 per cent between 2007 and the third quarter of 2013.

However, with no net migration, the ESRI estimated the population of those with the least advanced education qualifications would have fallen by only 10 per cent, suggesting this cohort of workers had been adversely affected by the recession. By the same token, the population of people with third-level qualifications rose by 10 per cent over the same period, suggesting substantial net immigration of graduates has been ongoing during the recession.

“There may be graduates exiting this country but based on current figures, there are even more coming in,” the ESRI’s John FitzGerald said. “However, what is more surprising is that the employment of those with third-level qualifications has risen continuously throughout the crisis.”

DeadHand

porsche959 wrote: »

This has no bearing on the individual decision to emigrate. It isn't an investment down the drain from their personal point of view, often the opposite.

I wasn't speaking about their personal point of view.

porsche959

DeadHand wrote: »

I was speaking about their personal point of view.

Why would the fact matter that taxpayer's funds have been invested in their education affect a personal decision to emigrate? I'm pretty sure it wouldn't affect mine. Maybe I lack a social conscience.

DeadHand

porsche959 wrote: »

Why would the fact matter that taxpayer's funds have been invested in their education affect a personal decision to emigrate? I'm pretty sure it wouldn't affect mine. Maybe I lack a social conscience.

Sorry, that was a typo.

I wasn't speaking about personal decisions I was speaking about the societal affects of emigration.

Practically speaking, it doesn't and it shouldn't. People in general put social conscience to one side when it comes to improving their lives.

porsche959

DeadHand wrote: »

Sorry, that was a typo.

I wasn't speaking about personal decisions I was speaking about the societal affects of emigration.

Practically speaking, it doesn't and it shouldn't. People in general put social conscience to one side when it comes to improving their lives.

Ah right. In that case, I agree.

Femme_Fatale

Because it's not easy when the person would rather not emigrate but has to for work.
That said, people who give out about people turning their back on Ireland and "letting it down yadda yadda" are *****.

Pen.Island

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Because it's not easy when the person would rather not emigrate but has to for work.
That said, people who give out about people turning their back on Ireland and "letting it down yadda yadda" are *****.

But unless you have a family (most of the people leaving are young graduates I'd assume) it's a great experience and it only has to be for a year or two.

Digs

Richard Hillman wrote: »

The vast majority of people that i know have emigrated through choice and life experience rather than necessity.

One of my brothers emigrated almost 6 years ago out of necessity which to be honest is not nice. Himself and his wife met in college which means they are in the same line of work, and in an industry which is struggling in Ireland so therefore they had no choice but to leave. They are currently in America. They are always on the look out for jobs in Ireland but no dice yet.

They earn good money over there but are always missing home and we are missing them. They aren't over there living the dream or anything, they are a young married couple who would love nothing more than to come home and settle down but can't.

They come home every chance they can, currently home for Christmas and have a baby on the way. We are so delighted and thrilled to have them back but them leaving is always at the back of our minds and it's worse still knowing they really don't want to leave.

Certainly yes life could be worse, we are all happy and healthy but nevertheless having them so far away is no fun for anyone.

It would definitely depend on the stage in life the people emigrating are imo!

Pen.Island

Digs wrote: »

One of my brothers emigrated almost 6 years ago out of necessity which to be honest is not nice. Himself and his wife met in college which means they are in the same line of work, and in an industry which is struggling in Ireland so therefore they had no choice but to leave. They are currently in America. They are always on the look out for jobs in Ireland but no dice yet.

They earn good money over there but are always missing home and we are missing them. They aren't over there living the dream or anything, they are a young married couple who would love nothing more than to come home and settle down but can't.

They come home every chance they can, currently home for Christmas and have a baby on the way. We are so delighted and thrilled to have them back but them leaving is always at the back of our minds and it's worse still knowing they really don't want to leave.

Certainly yes life could be worse, we are all happy and healthy but nevertheless having them so far away is no fun for anyone.

It would definitely depend on the stage in life the people emigrating are imo!

What is the industry?

Digs

Pen.Island wrote: »

What is the industry?

Why, might you have a job offer? :P

Pen.Island

Digs wrote: »

Why, might you have a job offer? :P

Haha no :P

But it surely has to be pretty obscure to have several years experience and not to find anything.

Digs

Pen.Island wrote: »

Haha no :P

But it surely has to be pretty obscure to have several years experience and not to find anything.

Horticulture/landscaping. I suppose even in good times America could offer them better things but currently Ireland has zilch to offer. For the pair of them anyway!

Pen.Island

Digs wrote: »

Horticulture/landscaping. I suppose even in good times America could offer them better things but currently Ireland has zilch to offer. For the pair of them anyway!

Yeah I suppose there's not much chance for growth in that area....apart from the grass! :P

In all seriousness though that's a tough one alright....

WilyCoyote

Snobbery. In the 40s and 50s only working class emigrated.
Much the same as why jobs that include manual labour are frowned upon.

KyussBishop

For a lot of people it's a desirable thing that they may have wanted to do anyway (particularly common after college), but in the current economy with so much unemployment, the massive increase in emigration is clearly a result of the level of unemployment and lack of prospects many people see here.

It's sad in that the government has failed to provide a working economy for all of those people who would rather stay, that those people are forced to uproot their lives and live away from family/home in order to earn (and given the state of the entire world economy - many of their earnings/job-security won't be much better abroad either)

Given that our economic crisis has a lot left to go, many of these people may opt to become illegal immigrants in the countries they go to, or may end up having to uproot their lives a second (or possibly third+) time, after getting used to their new lives, to move on to the next country after their pass expires (or to return home - without the prospect of a job).
What kind of social connections is that going to leave people? (they'll get to know people sure, but then it's all cut-off again after the pass expires - which can harm/delay their prospects personally too)


It's easy to forget about the costs of such high unemployment levels when not personally affected by it, but it means that a lot of peoples lives are at a complete standstill professionally, which is going to hamper them personally and reduce/delay their future prospects in general.
We're talking about years taken away from peoples working lives - leaving many of them with hundreds of thousands less in earnings gathered/spent over the years, by the time they retire; that's got a large effect on a persons prospects and wealth/quality-of-life in the future.

After the economic crisis is near coming an end as well, we will likely be in another property bubble again, with depressed worker wages, making mortgages even more unaffordable than they were before - all this in preparation for the next boom/crisis, which is ready to be set in motion because none of the problem of debt (particularly private debt) has been dealt with.

All of this (and more) is why people should measure continued unemployment (and the effects of it - including increased emigration), as one of the highest costs of the crisis - people usually focus only on the monetary costs of it, not the human ones.

mandrake04

Jagdtiger wrote: »

I'm just back from a year in New Zealand and I found it to be a great experience, one that I would recommend everyone do while they can.

why did you only stay a year then?

Wacker The Attacker

Pen.Island wrote: »

First off, there are people who HAVE to leave to get work. People with mortgages , kids and loans who can't get a job because of their lack of qualifications or experience or just plain no jobs in the sector.

We all see these programmes at christmas, returning home from abroad. How many of these choose to go abroad though? Or the ones that have chosen to stay abroad?

I was offered a job abroad earlier this year and almost took it. But I chose the one in Ireland as I preferred the field it was in. Had I accepted then I would have been added to the statistic of being one of the 1000's "forced" to leave the country for work.

I would have happily taken the job abroad. Get my year or two experience and come back and get a job here.

Emigrating isn't so bad, you get to experience different cultures and people that many won't get to do. And unless you go to america or Oz than you're never too far away from home.

I know plenty who have gone abroad and they're loving it.

I think the Irish like to pity themselves sometimes as in "I've been forced to leave the country..my heart is broken".

Not expecting this to be popular.

What about people who have no choice and have to emigrate through necessity.

homerjay2005

oceanman wrote: »

I would say some choose it but that majority are forced to go for work reasons. but you are right, emigration is not such a bad thing, for one it lessens the dole queue and that's no bad thing..

i dunno about that, i know about 10 people who have emigrated and 8 of them had jobs before they left.

the constant depression, the complete lack of value of being a taxpayer, bulls*it politics and even something simple like the weather is enough to drive people out.

lack of employment of course is a factor, but its not the only one.

Frank Black

Emigration can be a very positive experience, but forced and widespread emigration is obviously wrong.
We are very lucky in Ireland that most young people are willing to up sticks and emigrate and it has considerably reduced the strain on our SW system during the recession. Other countries such as Spain or Greece do not seem to have this culture of young people leaving to find work and have huge youth unemployment rates.
However in the medium to long term, exporting our youth cannot be allowed to continue. As a country, our economic future will depend primarily on having an educated workforce which will attract foreign investment and allow us to sell services on the global marketplace. We will never compete with countries like China or India in terms of cost and we have no huge reservoir of natural resourses or large manufacturing industries, so our educated workforce are our primary resource.
Investing in education and ensuring that there are job opportunities for graduates should be the main aim of this and future governments.

SmurfX

Ireland has a very weird attitude towards emigration harping back to the famine days. A lot of people in this country feel as if there's a pressure to emigrate and those abroad feel as if they should be an "Irish abroad" rather than integrate into the local community.
You wouldn't know from the levels of coverage but we actually still have higher immigration than emigration, just too much hysteria around it in general.

Emigrants should be wished well in their new home and we should move on.

BraziliaNZ

mandrake04 wrote: »

why did you only stay a year then?

He was clearly on a WHV. A year in NZ drinking doesn't really count as emigration though does it?

mandrake04

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

He was clearly on a WHV. A year in NZ drinking doesn't really count as emigration though does it?

Ah now don't be sceptical.

Sure my parents next door neighbours emigrated to Majorca for 2 weeks in July, why would you go on a few weeks holiday when you can emigrate for a few weeks instead.... sounds far more exciting.

Chazz Michael Michaels

I'm thinking of emigrating to Florence in Feb for a weekend. It will be tough on my family...

Femme_Fatale

Pen.Island wrote: »

But unless you have a family (most of the people leaving are young graduates I'd assume) it's a great experience and it only has to be for a year or two.

I assume there are cases where it has to be more than a year or two and it's not a great experience for the person doing so when they don't want to do it, but just have to.

Pen.Island

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

I assume there are cases where it has to be more than a year or two and it's not a great experience for the person doing so when they don't want to do it, but just have to.

I think once you have 2 years experience in a job then there is jobs in Ireland if you try and network hard enough.

Builders however who have no qualifications can't expect to come back in 2 years and go building again.