Simulation Gaming saved me from writing off my car yesterday….

flashforward

Had a frightening experience yesterday on the M6 towards Galway around Aughrim.
Travelling @110-120 through medium rain @4-5°; for much of the journey from Athlone
‘Rain’ got heavier 1-2km before Aughrim. There’s a slight bend on the motorway here and low and behold while in the slow lane the rear end steps out towards the middle wall.

I had hit what I can only describe as a slush ice rink.

This was the first time I had lost control of any car in any conditions – turned into the skid (towards the wall) without touching the brake. (Rear passenger said car was approx. 0.5metres from wall when some control came back)
This whole section of the motorway is a bend and in order to save the car I had to turn away from the wall (at a guess around 80-90kph) again the rear stepped out.
Slightly touched the brakes and rear end stepped out more, full lock into the skid and car travelled @ 90° to the road until it came to a stop 3 foot from the Armco on the hardshoulder finishing up nearly @ 120°.

Pulled in on the hard shoulder (facing wrong direction) hazards on & quick flash to warn oncomers. Reversed until it was clear to turn.
When I looked back at the dials the weather was down to 1°, travelling toward the toll it looked like there was a snow storm. I was losing the back end @ 60kph. Passed by 3 crashes on the way to Galway. 2 write offs. When I got to Galway it was back up at 4°. 40km back and the roads were just wet and temperatures were 4°-5°. Absolutely freak weather.

I really believe my time spent with racing wheel and pedals prevented my car from been a write off. I didn’t panic and just followed what was inherent from losing grip in the likes of Forza motorsport/ Gran Turismo. This coupled with a sh*t load of luck saved my car and possible more.

What I did wrong: I should have realised the heavier ‘Rain’ was actually sleet and slowed way down the minute it hit.
Also there may be an argument that when I gained control of the car I should have let it glide along the wall and ruin the right side of the car until it came to a stop rather than risk losing the car again hit the Armco.

Driving E92 335i.

Lesson learned and hope this post makes at least 1 person be more cautious driving over Christmas.

Supergurrier

Personally i think the problem with most Irish drivers is the generally think they are playing a computer game where they get bonus points for fogs incorrect lane hogging and tailgating.

Drive to suit the conditions. Lucky escape op good to hear

yop

I think been a lucky boy saved you more than the game simulation Unless you have a 20m driving simulation unit then I am not sure driving a car on a PS3 with toy wheels and pedals is gonna save your life

Least you came away from it, but more a case of drive to the conditions

Mr.David

Glad to hear it worked out ok, definitely agree that Gran Turismo and the likes can be beneficial for developing an instinctive reaction for these rare situations.

The temptation to brake is overwhelming isnt it?!

flashforward

yop wrote: »

I think been a lucky boy saved you more than the game simulation Unless you have a 20m driving simulation unit then I am not sure driving a car on a PS3 with toy wheels and pedals is gonna save your life

Least you came away from it, but more a case of drive to the conditions

I respectfully disagree here.
Obviously GT and Forza aren’t real life simulations but the basic physics behind them are sound.
Simple things like to prevent braking and turn into the skid were second nature to me due to these mainstream simulation games.

In those games where pushing hard on the last lap and losing control around the final corner got me used to a high pressure situation of loss of control.

You could argue the basics of controlling a car during a skid could be read, studied and understood but it is entirely differently reading something and putting it into practicing for the first time in a potentially disastrous situation.

All those hours spent with the wheel and peddles left my reactions in my situation to be second nature and instant. In my opinion that it what prevented an accident.

Anan1

Surely the most obvious message here is not to drive on summer tyres in winter?

djimi

Anan1 wrote: »

Surely the most obvious message here is not to drive on summer tyres in winter?

The most obvious message is drive the conditions. We very rarely get conditions in this country that properly warrant winter tires (nice to have, but for the most part summer tires can cope perfectly well)

Matt_Trakker

Anan1 wrote: »

Surely the most obvious message here is not to drive on summer tyres in winter?

Yep, winter tyres are the way to go.

yop

flashforward wrote: »

I respectfully disagree here.
Obviously GT and Forza aren’t real life simulations but the basic physics behind them are sound.
Simple things like to prevent braking and turn into the skid were second nature to me due to these mainstream simulation games.

In those games where pushing hard on the last lap and losing control around the final corner got me used to a high pressure situation of loss of control.

You could argue the basics of controlling a car during a skid could be read, studied and understood but it is entirely differently reading something and putting it into practicing for the first time in a potentially disastrous situation.

All those hours spent with the wheel and peddles left my reactions in my situation to be second nature and instant. In my opinion that it what prevented an accident.

Yip and playing hours of call of Duty isn't going to turn you into a navy seal

Drive to the conditions, not because you have a toy wheel and pedals

U survived it, thank your lucky stars!

flashforward

yop wrote: »

Yip and playing hours of call of Duty isn't going to turn you into a navy seal

Non comparable here. I'm not holding an actual gun for aiming and pulling a trigger when playing call of duty am I?

Same way as playing GT or forza with a pad would only be marginally beneficial.

Red Kev

djimi wrote: »

The most obvious message is drive the conditions. We very rarely get conditions in this country that properly warrant winter tires (nice to have, but for the most part summer tires can cope perfectly well)

If anything then at least all season tyres.

There are loads of ADAC, TUV and car magazine reports (usually done with the supervision of ADAC, or TUV) in Germany that prove beyond doubt that summer tyres perform a lot worse than winter or even all season tyres in cold weather. 7c is generally regarded as being the temp below which winter and all season perform far better.

I've used both winter and summer for years when living abroad and the ifference is enormous.

BTW, OP never said what tyres he has on the car. I presume with a 335i they are fat enough which actually doesn't help in the conditions mentioned, thinner tyres are better in rain, snow, ice and slush, but he/she seems to have done pretty well out of the experience thankfully.

djimi

I think there may be some merit in what the OP is saying. Some sim racers are very realistic (Im not taking about the likes of Need For Speed here), and if you were to play a lot of iRacing for example then you would get a better idea at least of how a car behaves in certain situations. Its obviously no substitute for an advanced driving course, but its better experience than most people would have who probably wouldnt have the first clue what to do when the arse of a car starts to step out.

djimi

Red Kev wrote: »

If anything then at least all season tyres.

There are loads of ADAC, TUV and car magazine reports (usually done with the supervision of ADAC, or TUV) in Germany that prove beyond doubt that summer tyres perform a lot worse than winter or even all season tyres in cold weather. 7c is generally regarded as being the temp below which winter and all season perform far better.

I've used both winter and summer for years when living abroad and the ifference is enormous.

BTW, OP never said what tyres he has on the car.

Im not disputing that winter tires perform better in winter conditions. I am however disputing the comment that you should not drive on summer tires in winter. For the most part we dont get conditions that are bad enough as to make summer tires dangerous during winter, and while it would obviously be preferrable to have winter tires on where possible, its by no means an absolute necessary. In 13 years of driving I can honestly say I have encountered no more than maybe 2-3 times when I needed better tires than what I had on, and one of those times I would have needed studded tires to get me home safely.

Thud

yop wrote: »

I think been a lucky boy saved you more than the game simulation Unless you have a 20m driving simulation unit then I am not sure driving a car on a PS3 with toy wheels and pedals is gonna save your life

Least you came away from it, but more a case of drive to the conditions

http://jalopnik.com/5982998/gt-academy-drivers-cant-race-in-real-life-because-theyre-too-fast

flashforward

Red Kev wrote: »

BTW, OP never said what tyres he has on the car. I presume with a 335i they are fat enough which actually doesn't help in the conditions mentioned, thinner tyres are better in rain, snow, ice and slush, but he/she seems to have done pretty well out of the experience thankfully.

225/35/19 Front & 255/30/19 Rear - Summer tyres.

They were basically useless at anything but a crawl on those roads yesterday.

yop

Thud wrote: »

http://jalopnik.com/5982998/gt-academy-drivers-cant-race-in-real-life-because-theyre-too-fast

Aye, can't say I am surprised, I am not going to argue with the OP, he was in the situation, but the only thing that has helped my driving was getting an understanding from track days and from years of driving.

Anyway OP, as said, you survived, happy days.

mathepac

flashforward wrote: »

... Driving E92 335i...

Let me see now. A RWD car, air-temperatures showing close to freezing (ground temperatures probably lower) sleet on top of wet roads, curve in the road, travelling at or near national speed limit. I agree with this

flashforward wrote: »

... a sh*t load of luck saved my car and possible more.

Pure blind luck saved you and your passengers. Please learn to drive to the conditions. Thankfully no-one else got caught up in the stupidity-induced tank-slapper.

_Puma_

What the OP is saying about the Racing Sim saving him has a lot of merit. We are not talking about arcade sims here but a Video games that have some of the best physic simulations around. Take a look at this.

It is a collaboration between the Game maker and Nissan where the video game is used to find some of the best young drivers around, some of whom have gone on to be successful Professional GT Racers. If you watch the series a lot of the participants mention that the game has honed their skills when reacting to spin outs, managing understeer etc... Of course the game is no substitution to the actual "feel" for a car you get while physically driving it but the situations experienced in the Sim can be quiet similar to the real thing.

yop

flashforward wrote: »

225/35/19 Front & 255/30/19 Rear - Summer tyres.

They were basically useless at anything but a crawl on those roads yesterday.

Even though you knew they were useless you still continued to carry on at 120kmph on deteriorating roads, especially when there was a multi car pile up the day before.


See the pic on that story, sounds like you were a lucky lucky boy.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/country-braced-for-more-storms-as-met-eireann-issues-new-alert-29854509.html

Dr. Kenneth Noisewater

A lot of people don't realise it, but that section of the M6 for a few km either side of the toll at Cappataggle is elevated enough to make a dangerous difference when the temps are down around 4 or 5 degrees. There should really be signage to indicate this, such as the 'Road liable to Frost' signs you see in parts of the country.

flashforward

mathepac wrote: »

Let me see now. A RWD car, air-temperatures showing close to freezing (ground temperatures probably lower) sleet on top of wet roads, curve in the road, travelling at or near national speed limit. I agree with this Pure blind luck saved you and your passengers. Please learn to drive to the conditions. Thankfully no-one else got caught up in the stupidity-induced tank-slapper.

yop wrote: »

Even though you knew they were useless you still continued to carry on at 120kmph on deteriorating roads, especially when there was a multi car pile up the day before.


See the pic on that story, sounds like you were a lucky lucky boy.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/country-braced-for-more-storms-as-met-eireann-issues-new-alert-29854509.html

Did either of ye read my full original post?

It was 4.5 - 5degrees Celsius in Athlone with light rain. 120kph was acceptable.

This ‘rain’ turned to sleet although I misread it as heavier rain (my bad) didn’t check my dials until after the skid and it was down to 1 degree. We hit a freezing cold front that in the space of 1-2 minutes left a deadly layer of slush on the road.

I had no idea the ‘rain’ was creating an ice rink up ahead if I had I certainly wouldn’t have been doing this speed – I already accepted this was my mistake.
But don’t go thinking I was pushing the car into this bend @120 knowing the roads were in any way slippy!!!!

As I said, 5km from end of motorway the temps were back up at 4 degrees with some sunny spells. It was a crazy weather front that totalled numerous cars ahead of me.

Stallingrad

OP, you should have know this thread would end up with lots of finger pointing and tut tutting. Sounds like you were caught out by the conditions, it happens, especially in rear wheel drive cars. Learn from it and tread carefully when conditions are poor.

embraer170

Good outcome! I had a very close one before Christmas some years ago but luck, my reactions and electronic systems saved me (and especially the 2 people in a car who were crossing from a side road onto a narrow national primary without seeing me).

Question: were any electronic protection systems on the BMW disabled?

Sobanek

Gran Turismo has taught me a lot about FWD skid, so you can say GT5 has saved my ass when I hit surface water not too long ago
Handbrake action and all.

Sobanek

Gran Turismo has taught me a lot about FWD skid, so you can say GT5 has saved my ass when I hit surface water not too long ago
Handbrake action and all.

rocky

flashforward wrote: »

Slightly touched the brakes and rear end stepped out more, full lock into the skid and car travelled @ 90° to the road until it came to a stop 3 foot from the Armco on the hardshoulder finishing up nearly @ 120°.

Pure luck IMO. If instead you ended up controlling the skid and not facing the wrong way might have given more credence to the sim game idea...

Are there no systems on the BMW to help in these situations?

Paddy@CIRL

To be honest OP, I reckon the traction and stability controls in the E92 are what really saved you, they're amongst the best I've ever experienced in any car. I know they've saved me once or twice when I was being a little over enthusiastic.

As an FYI, when the temperature drops below 3c, the car will sound a warning and flash a message on the dashboard. If you missed it...

Glad to hear you got out of it okay

tossy

mathepac wrote: »

Let me see now. A RWD car, air-temperatures showing close to freezing (ground temperatures probably lower) sleet on top of wet roads, curve in the road, travelling at or near national speed limit. I agree with this Pure blind luck saved you and your passengers. Please learn to drive to the conditions. Thankfully no-one else got caught up in the stupidity-induced tank-slapper.

How's the air temperate waaay up there on-your-moral-high-horse? the bit in bold is particularly harsh, you are kind of suggesting the OP was stupid for A driving a RWD car and B stupid to do the national speed limit on a motorway in what he thought was above freezing conditions. :rolleyes:

flashforward

Stallingrad wrote: »

OP, you should have know this thread would end up with lots of finger pointing and tut tutting. Sounds like you were caught out by the conditions, it happens, especially in rear wheel drive cars. Learn from it and tread carefully when conditions are poor.

Completely agree with this, entirely my fault but that’s not what the thread is about... Thread is about racing sim experience can help when the situation happens.

rocky wrote: »

Pure luck IMO. If instead you ended up controlling the skid and not facing the wrong way might have given more credence to the sim game idea...

Are there no systems on the BMW to help in these situations?

First skid was controlled using similar methods as driving sims only problem is that when I got back control of the car it was going to skim the wall.
Second skid was self-induced to avoid hitting the wall – I probably over steered which caused the excessive spin but again locking the wheel fully into the spin prevent complete loss of control - saving the car.


Moral of the story: I really think that with no experience (real life or simulation) I would have crashed the car.

Anan1

tossy wrote: »

How's the air temperate waaay up there on-your-moral-high-horse? the bit in bold is particularly harsh, you are kind of suggesting the OP was stupid for A driving a RWD car and B stupid to do the national speed limit on a motorway in what he thought was above freezing conditions. :rolleyes:

In view of what happened I can't see how anyone could argue that it wasn't stupid. We all do stupid things from time to time, the trick is not to deny them but to learn from them.

flashforward wrote: »

Moral of the story: I really think that with no experience (real life or simulation) I would have crashed the car.

Quite possibly. But with the correct tyres you probably wouldn't have lost control in the first place.

flashforward

Paddy@CIRL wrote: »

To be honest OP, I reckon the traction and stability controls in the E92 are what really saved you, they're amongst the best I've ever experienced in any car. I know they've saved me once or twice when I was being a little over enthusiastic.

As an FYI, when the temperature drops below 3c, the car will sound a warning and flash a message on the dashboard. If you missed it...

Glad to hear you got out of it okay [IMG]file:///C:\Users\slynam\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png[/IMG]

Absolutely the cars electronic system helped… a lot. But at the end of the day, no amount of traction or stability control would have prevented a crash if I had slammed on the brakes or turned away from either skid at those speeds.

I know the 3 degree warning light and I honestly must have missed it, I didn’t even have the radio on but there was others in the car. Wonder if its possible that the weather front came on so quick that the reading hadn’t adjusted? Not sure how responsive they are but there was a temperature drop of up to 4 degrees in the space of about a minute.

Anan1

flashforward wrote: »

I know the 3 degree warning light and I honestly must have missed it, I didn’t even have the radio on but there was others in the car. Wonder if its possible that the weather front came on so quick that the reading hadn’t adjusted? Not sure how responsive they are but there was a temperature drop of up to 4 degrees in the space of about a minute.

It's quite possible that you came upon a cold pocket - you were moving fast, and temperature can change by quite a lot in even a couple of hundred metres. Seriously though, do yourself a favour and get a set of cheap wheels with good winter tyres. You'll be amazed at the difference they make, and all for less than the cost of a front bumper.

mathepac

tossy wrote: »

... you are kind of suggesting the OP was stupid for A driving a RWD car and B stupid to do the national speed limit on a motorway in what he thought was above freezing conditions. ...

I'm not "kind of suggesting" anything.

My post states clearly my opinion of driving at that speed, in a RWD car, on that road, in yesterday's conditions. My opinion is borne out by the consequences described n the OP.

You may not agree with my opinion, in which case be a man about it and say so (and why). Less of the scuzzy attempted troll-posts please, and buy your own groceries.

Just in case the mods are worried, "scuzzy attempted troll-posts" is my opinion of the words used, not the poster, and thus is a fair comment on post content.

mathepac

flashforward wrote: »

Did either of ye read my full original post? ...

Yup very carefully and the outcome you described in the OP is what I'd expect when a driver misreads road / weather conditions, tyre adhesion, driving dynamics of his car and fails to appreciate the difference between air temperature and ground temperature.

Pretty much called it yourself in fairness "entirely my fault", but you were very lucky..

flashforward

mathepac wrote: »

Yup very carefully and the outcome you described in the OP is what I'd expect when a driver misreads road / weather conditions, tyre adhesion, driving dynamics of his car and fails to appreciate the difference between air temperature and ground temperature.

I agree with your first point, I did misread the road/weather conditions.

But in all fairness where do you get off saying I misread any of the bold statement?

Misreading Tyre adhesion and driving dynamics is laughable..... I'd hazard a guess that someone who misread those at that speed would be in hospital right now with the conditions on that stretch of road yesterday (unfortunately judging by the 3 ambulances I met going the opposite direction there was)

Agree with tossy, there's the stirrup.

Doom

Modern cars give us the illusion that we are safer, motorway roads, less car noise, less feedback from the steering wheel, Abs, traction control, the car doesn't feel like its travelling at 120kph, people get a false sense and don't think a modern car can skid and loose control on a motorway, motorway skills in Ireland are shockingly bad.

ironclaw

Respectfully disagree with the OP. Driving games give no sensation of speed, G or feedback from the wheel. And most importantly, no sensation of 'fear' as you head towards an obstacle. All of which are present in real life and will drastically affect your reaction in my opinion.

The jalopnik story while admirable is not the same, they are in an academy and being tutored. The first lesson of which is probably 'Forget everything you learned' Nissan also worked extensively with the makers of Gran Turismo in the development of the onboard UI and design for the GTR. Hence its really just a marketing ploy and proves little in the way of technical skill. Years ago I remember seeing Fifth Gear (Or a similar UK show) took a lad who was brilliant at WRC games, and he binned the car after about 2 laps.

I don't personally feel games give any real driving lessons for real situations.

HandsomeDan

=>



...

No. Not seeing it.

HandsomeDan

Doom wrote: »

blah blah blah, people get a false sense and don't think a modern car can skid and loose control on a motorway, motorway skills in Ireland are shockingly bad.

Yes, that deficit of skill required to drive in a straight line at moderate speed.

What has society become?

Doom

HandsomeDan wrote: »

Yes, that deficit of skill required to drive in a straight line at moderate speed.

What has society become?

If thats all you think is needed....God help us with people like you on the roads

BMJD

Let's hope the OP doesn't get GTA V for christmas.

flashforward

HandsomeDan wrote: »

Really get the impression the majority of people posting here have no idea what a Racing simulation set up is. Or how 'real' these simulations are. Id guess the majority have never tested one except thinking that playing gran turismo with their ps3 controller is the same thing.

More like this Handsomedan:



Oh and IronClaw even the basic wheels give feedback. Some are scarily accurate.

Alot of you seem to think that driving is beyond the realms of accurate simulation..... why should it be any different from Flight Simulation? The staple of training pilots. If driving was as expensive it would be the norm for that too.

Oh and on the Nissan Gran Turismo academy its very strange that the winners have had so much success against other professional drivers. This would mean you could take a random selection of 20 standard road drivers and by the end of training the winner could compete with the best in the world..... yeah....

HandsomeDan

Spectacular OG post there flash.

Notch000

I think the most amazing thing about this thread is that the OP drives a powerful RWD car and appears to have never done a bit of a slide in his life..................

mathepac

flashforward wrote: »

... Alot of you seem to think that driving is beyond the realms of accurate simulation..... .

Well I know that driving is driving and that simulation is well, just simulation. Try a simulation where you ignore warnings from built in driver aids, travel in winter conditions on summer tyres, are distracted by passengers and where your luck is dialled down to zero.

sundodger5

so do flight simulators for pilots have no resembalance to reality?

CianRyan

mathepac wrote: »

Well I know that driving is driving and that simulation is well, just simulation. Try a simulation where you ignore warnings from built in driver aids, travel in winter conditions on summer tyres, are distracted by passengers and where your luck is dialled down to zero.

With all due respect, I think you're full of it.
You've been offered plenty of viable sources to back up the OP, yet because you seem to have no understanding if a real driving simulator you completely shut the nation down.

The OP learned how to contol a skid in the sim, applied the same technique and low and behold, physics did what it does best and reproduced itself in real life, saving the car an possibly the OP and his mates.

This forum has been over run with lads just looking for a bit of trash talking lately. It seriously puts me off posting in here.

djimi

ironclaw wrote: »

Respectfully disagree with the OP. Driving games give no sensation of speed, G or feedback from the wheel. And most importantly, no sensation of 'fear' as you head towards an obstacle. All of which are present in real life and will drastically affect your reaction in my opinion.

The jalopnik story while admirable is not the same, they are in an academy and being tutored. The first lesson of which is probably 'Forget everything you learned' Nissan also worked extensively with the makers of Gran Turismo in the development of the onboard UI and design for the GTR. Hence its really just a marketing ploy and proves little in the way of technical skill. Years ago I remember seeing Fifth Gear (Or a similar UK show) took a lad who was brilliant at WRC games, and he binned the car after about 2 laps.

I don't personally feel games give any real driving lessons for real situations.

Im guessing youve never played a real driving sim then with proper equipment? Not the real thing for sure, but a hell of a lot better than some WRC arcade racer or even anything on a console.

cabb8ge

This all happen very quickly, post incident OP able to talk with great detail about maneouvre, I think OP escape accident and maybe chinese whispers occur in his head afterwards, natural for this to happen.

CianRyan wrote: »

---

This forum has been over run with lads just looking for a bit of trash talking lately. It seriously puts me off posting in here.

forum lately ran over with trash talk indeed. You one of the lads behind that
you post lots for someone seriosuly put off posting.

CianRyan

cabb8ge wrote: »

This all happen very quickly, post incident OP able to talk with great detail about maneouvre, I think OP escape accident and maybe chinese whispers occur in his head afterwards, natural for this to happen.



forum lately ran over with trash talk indeed. You one of the lads behind that
you post lots for someone seriosuly put off posting.

Reported for the highlighted bit.

Yep, I've been using this forum for nearly 6 years, there has been waves of trolls come in and out, it's annoying but I put up with it for the most parts. I'm not going to just close my account because of a few lads looking for rows.

Anyway, that's for another thread.

cabb8ge

CianRyan wrote: »

Reported for the highlighted bit. ---.

I sure Moderators can read your posts. No one suggest you close your account, only Cian mention that.