Got a job offer, what do you think about this salary?

Jobseekerrr

Hi, I'm a foreign Business MSc graduate fluent in three languages, with work experience as intern in three large companies in two different countries.
I got an offer from a big IT American company based in Dublin for a contractor role in the financial department, but I'm not sure whether their offer is competitive and that's why I would like you to give me a suggestion.
26k€ pa, no relocation support (I have to move to Dublin from a foreign country), no to any other kind of compensation.
I think this salary is not competitive at all, it is the same amount paid by another American big company for its Customer Service Agents (lower profiles) in Galway (lower cost of living).
Maybe I'm wrong and I should accept, maybe I'm right and I should negotiate, what do you guys think?
Thank you!

Sir Arthur Daley

I feel you pain here OP, you should renegotiate.

Jobseekerrr

WikiHow wrote: »

I feel you pain here OP, you should renegotiate.

I forgot to mention that is a 5-month contract and that's why I'm considering this opportunity, otherwise with such a little compensation I'd better search something else.

Sir Arthur Daley

Jobseekerrr wrote: »

I forgot to mention that is a 5-month contract and that's why I'm considering this opportunity, otherwise with such a little compensation I'd better search something else.

You will get screwed on tax on such a small contract, i would negotiate more.

Malcolm.

Don't worry, as long as you remain cheaper than what an Irish employee would accept you'll still get the job.

was.deevey

Depends on the Job Position - is it something you need 3 languages and a business degree for or something they could hire someone with less qualifications for ?

If its contract work though you:

a)should be paid higher than an employee.
b) If there is no relocation plan how on earth are you supposed to sort out accommodation, phone, internet etc. When the majority of those contracts are for a minimum year + deposits ?
c) Potentially agree on a year minimum for the contract term on the basis of the above.

I would negotiate at a bare minimum to get a relocation package and make sure they are handling all your visa stuff as well as that can get majorly tiring trekking from embassy to police to embassy (and expensive) when fees need to be paid that you did not plan on.

Gone West

was.deevey wrote: »

Depends on the Job Position - is it something you need 3 languages and a business degree for or something they could hire someone with less qualifications for ?

If its contract work though you:

a)should be paid higher than an employee.
b) If there is no relocation plan how on earth are you supposed to sort out accommodation, phone, internet etc. When the majority of those contracts are for a minimum year + deposits ?
c) Potentially agree on a year minimum for the contract term on the basis of the above.

I would negotiate at a bare minimum to get a relocation package and make sure they are handling all your visa stuff as well as that can get majorly tiring trekking from embassy to police to embassy (and expensive) when fees need to be paid that you did not plan on.

For a 26k job, they won't be doing any of those things.
This is a basic job, not something that they will jump through hoops for.

Where are you from and what languages do you speak?
Not all languages are equal. An example, Irish has zero commercial value outside of Ireland, and it isn't even listed on my cv, however other languages that I speak are listed.

So this will be your first paid IT employment?
I'd say go for it. Starting salary won't mean much after a few years.
If you are actually any good, you can expect to get a better job with more money every year or so.

Also, this sounds like a fixed term contract job, not to be confused with daily rate contracting.

Jobseekerrr

Hello guys and thank you for your valuable answers.
I'm Italian and I don't need a Visa to work in Dublin, I speak English and French fluently and yes, this is my first real job, even if I have worked as intern in General Electric and MetLife in Paris.
The contractor role is for a maternity cover, it would be impossible to extend the length of the contract and I do agree that as contractor I should be paid more than an employee.
I don't mind to move to Dublin and I probably would remain there after my contract will be over to find another job, but I think 26k€ is really too little many for a role in the Finance Department of a large company.. I would require not less than 30k€ to relocate, work in a busy environment and keep motivation up.

Gone West

Jobseekerrr wrote: »

I would require not less than 30k€ to relocate, work in a busy environment and keep motivation up.

Did they come headhunting you, or did you look at their ad on an Irish jobs website?

FURET

Congratulations on the offer.
If you're not happy with 26, at least ask for 28 or 30, pleading relocation as a factor for wanting a bit more. Do you have any other prospects right now? If not and they refuse you a hike, I would accept the 26 as the price you have to pay to break out of the internship zone. After a year at this company, start looking for a better opportunity. The only way is up.

was.deevey

I'm Italian and I don't need a Visa to work in Dublin, I speak English and French fluently and yes, this is my first real job, even if I have worked as intern in General Electric and MetLife in Paris.
The contractor role is for a maternity cover, it would be impossible to extend the length of the contract and I do agree that as contractor I should be paid more than an employee.
I don't mind to move to Dublin and I probably would remain there after my contract will be over to find another job, but I think 26k€ is really too little many for a role in the Finance Department of a large company.. I would require not less than 30k€ to relocate, work in a busy environment and keep motivation up.

Ahh, well not needing visas is a bonus and less of a headache for sure, I kinda assumed your were outside the eurozone for some reason :P Don't restrict yourself to Dublin either when looking for jobs, take a few weekend breaks and scout around the country.

Good luck !

Mrs OBumble

WikiHow wrote: »

You will get screwed on tax on such a small contract, i would negotiate more.

Ahh, I'm not sure that this is true. Provided the OP writes that they plan to stay in Ireland for 12 months on their form 12a, then they will get taxed just like any other employee.

OP, you have been offered a fixed-term contract. Most likely this means you would be a temporary employee, not a real contractor, ie a person who manages their own tax-affairs, and invoices the company monthly. (It would be very unusual for someone with no paid-workforce-expereince to be a contractor.) Temporary employees generally do not get paid more than permenant employees doing the same role.

I agree you should negotiate for 28 or 30 - but then I would always try to negotiate any offer up. Maybe they'll move, maybe they won't.
Realistically, the only thing you can compare this offer with is the amount that other jobs are offering you right now.

bigblackmug

The salary offer is too low for you to have a good quality of life in Dublin especially as you will have considerable relocation expenses and the contract period is short.
Tell them it is too low and decline the offer.
Let them come back to you with a higher offer.
Don't specify a figure you'd be willing to accept as that will give them a point which they will negotiate you down from.
If they want you and your language experience and previous workplace experience then they'll pay. They aren't going to source someone locally to take the job.
Your negotiating position is weak but their's is weaker.
Don't sell yourself short.

I wish you the best of luck in your career.

Malcolm.

Jobseekerrr wrote: »

Hello guys and thank you for your valuable answers.
I'm Italian and I don't need a Visa to work in Dublin, I speak English and French fluently and yes, this is my first real job, even if I have worked as intern in General Electric and MetLife in Paris.
The contractor role is for a maternity cover, it would be impossible to extend the length of the contract and I do agree that as contractor I should be paid more than an employee.
I don't mind to move to Dublin and I probably would remain there after my contract will be over to find another job, but I think 26k€ is really too little many for a role in the Finance Department of a large company.. I would require not less than 30k€ to relocate, work in a busy environment and keep motivation up.

You're dead right to seek at least 30k for that job. Dublin is an expensive city. In Ireland management skills, and concepts like the productivity benefits of morale, dignity at work, and decency are non existent. Motivation is done with the stick, never the carrot. You're just a number, they'll just find someone else willing to take less, and there's always someone who is. If you are interested by prepared to take it for 26k.

WildCardDoW

If this was a general IT role, it's a decent starting salary (better than most now sadly!) but with the languages they should be paying more. Never hurts to ask.

Malcolm.

decent for who ? Not for the employee that's for sure

usersame

Malcolm. wrote: »

Don't worry, as long as you remain cheaper than what an Irish employee would accept you'll still get the job.

Go find an irish grad with a masters and 3 fluent languages that isn't already employed

IS_a_Class

I'd say you could find a few thousand

Malcolm.

usersame wrote: »

Go find an irish grad with a masters and 3 fluent languages that isn't already employed

Well if they want to work for 26k with all that, good luck to them.

TelePaul

Time to back yourself here OP - that offer is considerably lower than those of entry-level graduate employees in any of the multinational techs I know of. If it was a year long contract (or 11 months as is usual) or if there was s good chance of being transitioned to full-time, I'd say go for it and build some professional and life experience, but as you've identified, it's just not practical. I'd also decline, citing salary as the mitigating issue. If the offer is pulled entirely, you can always restate your interest in working for this company should other positions open. As stated elsewhere, I think you're well qualified, but this is a two-way street!

TelePaul

IS_a_Class wrote: »

I'd say you could find a few thousand

Fluency ina second language, sure, but fluency in two with an MSC? Slim pickings I'd say.

camel jockey

I think many of the posters have gotten derailed by the following:

1. The role is in a Financial department of an IT company. It is not an IT role, the same way someone in HR in an IT company is not 'in IT'.
2. I have seen nothing to suggest that the 3 languages are in any way relevant. In all likelihood the role does not require any language other than English.
3. Related to number 1, this is not an 'IT Contractor' role.

When I hire someone I am paying for the experience and skills that are relevant to the role I am filling as well as other factors obviously. If I hire someone with 5 years .NET and 2 years Java experience for a Java role, the salary reflects the 2 years Java with some consideration for the non Java experience (given that there is certain overlap with concepts, OOP, design patterns, methodology etc). If the 5 years was completely unrelated then it doesn't even come into the equation.

Sleepy

26k is fairly standard for an IT grad position tbh. and perfectly easy to live on in Dublin once you house-share which is par-for-the-course in this stage of your career. An internship gives you some experience to help get you in the door but very few employers are going to pay you much more than 26k for an entry-level position.

Are your languages of any use to the company as in are they a requirement of the job? Or do you feel you should be paid more for an admirable quality but one that's commercially irrelevant?

I'd recommend chancing your arm for a better offer but if there's none forthcoming, take what you're offered. 26k should become 30k within 2 years of working but it'll stay at 26k if you're not working for those two years.

camel jockey

Sleepy wrote: »

26k is fairly standard for an IT grad position

It is NOT an IT grad position...

dearg lady

Sounds grand for your first paying job.Worth remembering that you may be kept on after a maternity contract, if another role becomes available or if the person you're covering chooses not to return.

TelePaul

camel jockey wrote: »

1. The role is in a Financial department of an IT company. It is not an IT role, the same way someone in HR in an IT company is not 'in IT'.

Unless the whole Finance function is itself being outsourced, I'd say €26k is still low. There are other ITs hiring (across multiple functions) that will pay the OP more than what they've been offered (albeit as an FTE). I think the reality though is that without relocation support, the offer isn't practical which is really the crux of it all.

robbok

26k is ok for a grad entry level job, as other posters have mentioned you can live on that reasonably well if you house share.
However you might be back job hunting in 5 months so you have to weigh that against if you think the experience gained in this role will help you get that 2nd job. Thats a tough call and will really depend on your individual circumstances, good luck in your career regardless.

FURET

It's also worth mentioning, I feel, that one generally shouldn't take up a position half-heartedly. If you're going to feel hard done by, this will affect your motivation and job performance.

OP: If you have been job-hunting for a while and not having much luck, I would take the role, especially if they're willing to bend a bit and pay you a little more. But I would only do this if the actual move to Dublin doesn't put you into an undesirable financial position with regard to the initial travel and accommodation costs. Once you're there, use the time to consolidate your skills and seek a better position for after the contract ends.

If the OP has a strong chance of landing a number of jobs in the short-term, then I wouldn't take this role; I'd wait for something better.

was.deevey

However you might be back job hunting in for 5 months

SmallCroc

Jobseekerrr wrote: »

.
I got an offer from a big IT American company based in Dublin for a contractor role in the financial department, but I'm not sure whether their offer is competitive and that's why I would like you to give me a suggestion.

I'm not saying that I think the situation is right or anything, but when you say "competitive" - what do you mean? Do you mean it has to compete with the other offers you've had?

You see, here's the thing. If you were one of only a very few people in the world who had the skills to do this job, and there were several companies who wanted you to do the job for them, then those companies would have to compete and so would offer you a competitive salary.

However, if there are many people who can do the job, and few companies who need the job filled, then it's you who has to be competitive. For example, you say you need money to relocate. So what? Possibly there are several people who already live in Dublin, possibly with their parents, who don't need to relocate, and so for them, 26K and the chance to earn some experience is a much more attractive option for them than it is for you.

Don't get me wrong. 26K seems like a terrible salary to me (I'm really lucky). If I were you, I wouldn't be relocating for that kind of money. But the fact that you're even interviewing for a job in Dublin suggests that you're not exactly flush with offers - no disrespect, with your languages and your qualifications you're waaay smarter than I am.

So I think realistically, it boils down to whether you can afford to do the job for the money offered, or whether you can afford not to. If you can afford not to, whats the harm is asking them to up their offer?

The_Conductor

I'm not sure what role you're being offered in the Finance Department- here is a survey of what the different roles in Finance are currently making in Dublin though

Link here

Graduate / Trainee Accountant roles are listed as being between 22 and 25k

For all intents and purposes- you are going to be dealt with as a new graduate- you only have basic internship roles under your belt, no experience in the traditional sense.

If the role can make use of your language skills etc- you might have a legitimate expectation of a higher salary- however outside of this- they're actually being pretty reasonable with their salary offer.

TelePaul

The_Conductor wrote: »

I'm not sure what role you're being offered in the Finance Department- here is a survey of what the different roles in Finance are currently making in Dublin though

Link here

Graduate / Trainee Accountant roles are listed as being between 22 and 25k

Those are milk-round offers though with a contracted career path and incremental salary increases over three years provided exams are passed.

The_Conductor

TelePaul wrote: »

Those are milk-round offers though with a contracted career path and incremental salary increases over three years provided exams are passed.

Yes.
The OP is providing maternity cover (according to the above).
I fail to see why such a short term arrangement would necessarily command anything other than this type of salary level.

What is the post. What are the qualifications of the incumbent. Are the OP's skills pertinent to the post? These are the sort of questions of interest. It sounds like the OP has a wonderful CV- but its simply not relevant or pertinent to the role he/she is going for.

TelePaul

The_Conductor wrote: »

Yes.
The OP is providing maternity cover (according to the above).
I fail to see why such a short term arrangement would necessarily command anything other than this type of salary level.

What is the post. What are the qualifications of the incumbent. Are the OP's skills pertinent to the post? These are the sort of questions of interest. It sounds like the OP has a wonderful CV- but its simply not relevant or pertinent to the role he/she is going for.

I think the Op is asking a) if his/her offer is commensurate with his/her qualifications/experience and b) if the offer as it stands is worth taking. In addressing point a), I think that comparing the OP's offer with that of a trainee accountant isn't wholly representative - those pursuing a career with a 'Big 4' company accept offers that are below the average graduate salary because they ramp-up quickly and the package comprises more than their take-home pay (neither of which apply to the OP)

The_Conductor

Scroll down to the bottom of the link I sent you- its salaries for temporary and interim positions. It hovers at around half what a full time position pays.

Holders of professional qualifications such as ACCA etc- earn a premium- even in contract positions- degrees and masters do not get this premium.

Once again- if the OP can show that their skillset is pertinent to the role they are being offered- then, perhaps, they can argue the salary is insufficient for the post. One way of determining this- would be to compare his skillset with that of the lady going maternity leave, who he is being taken on to provide maternity cover for. Unless she has a masters, 3 languages- and internships in multiple international companies in Paris and elsewhere- then while its lovely that the OP has them- they are not going to command a premium in said position.

If the OP could show experience (other than brief internships)- this would be helpful. His current skillset- while impressive, is overkill for the job he is being offered.

sarkozy

Wow, so interesting to hear people saying €26k is a terrible starting salary for a graduate. I've 10 years work experience (research, communications), a degree, masters and a language and I'm raising a family on €28k. No jobs for me in my sector, so now my hobby (design) is by rescue job until I can transition into something totally different, and then, I expect I'll be starting all over again. Given the state of the Irish labour market, prospects are grim.

OP: Dublin *is* an expensive city. You'll survive on €26k, but it won't be fun.

sarkozy

sarkozy wrote: »

Wow, so interesting to hear people saying €26k is a terrible starting salary for a graduate. I've 10 years work experience (research, communications), a degree, masters and a language and I'm raising a family on €28k. No jobs for me in my sector, so now my hobby (design) is by rescue job until I can transition into something totally different, and then, I expect I'll be starting all over again. Given the state of the Irish labour market, prospects are grim.

OP: Dublin *is* an expensive city. You'll survive on €26k, but it won't be fun.

If a single adult is only surviving on 26K, they should ask themselves what on earth they're frittering away their money on. It's a pretty good wage. Room in a house share should be no more than 500 pcm (possibly even including bills), which leaves over a grand to spend on everything else. Why would it not be fun? I was on 24K when things were more expensive (2007-8) and had plenty of money to do stuff. I think the Celtic Tiger has left people with a very skewed impression of how much they need to live on. I live in London, which is even more expensive than Dublin, earn quite a lot less than 26K, share a one-bed flat with my partner and get along fine. Many entry level positions here (not City/finance ones) start on 17-18K. If I'm making 2 grand a month before tax here (my monthly pay varies), I feel pretty well-off.

BTW, languages aren't particularly valued in the UK or Ireland. I speak three and nobody really cares. When I graduated I was on about 20K in a multilingual call centre and that was when times were good.

pow wow

The fact that you would have to relocate to take the job is your own problem OP, no company in their right mind would pay relocation expenses for a maternity cover post, or inflate the salary offered to reflect relocation costs. These extra costs are something which is adding weight to your belief that 26k is a low salary, but someone down the street from the company may well be quite happy on 26k. It's not a huge salary but it's not a terrible one either, particularly for someone with little paid experience.

FURET

Anna Alive Treble wrote: »

If a single adult is only surviving on 26K, they should ask themselves what on earth they're frittering away their money on. It's a pretty good wage. Room in a house share should be no more than 500 pcm (possibly even including bills), which leaves over a grand to spend on everything else. Why would it not be fun? I was on 24K when things were more expensive (2007-8) and had plenty of money to do stuff. I think the Celtic Tiger has left people with a very skewed impression of how much they need to live on. I live in London, which is even more expensive than Dublin, earn quite a lot less than 26K, share a one-bed flat with my partner and get along fine. Many entry level positions here (not City/finance ones) start on 17-18K. If I'm making 2 grand a month before tax here (my monthly pay varies), I feel pretty well-off.

It's a matter of perspective. A lot of people would consider 24k fine, but a lot would also consider it very small. Even the same individual, at different stages of their life, would have differing views as to whether a certain salary is good.

I've lived on various salaries throughout my adult life:

• EUR 130 euro net per week when I was in college (and up to 300 per week during summers; I was positively rich when compared to some classmates, but I worked every spare hour I had, including 25 and 26 December if I could)
• EUR 2200 net per month when I was newly graduated (in IT oddly enough; graduate salaries were around 35k in 2011 where I worked, so I'm surprised to hear that some IT grads start on 27k.
• EUR 5500 net per month right now.

When I was netting 2200 per month, I thought everything was honky dory, and it was, because I lived within a framework of 2200, and any standard of living that was outside of that framework, well, it just wasn't on my radar.
And I did have lots of fun with 2200 per month.
Of course you're right when you allude to what people need as opposed to what they want. But to be honest, when you get used to a situation where you have lots of disposable income and can save at the same time, it becomes very undesirable, shall we say, to go back. You can have a heck of a lot more fun the more money you earn, firstly because you don't have to worry about breaking your budget every time you want to do something, and secondly because you just have a much wider range of options open to you. That's just an unfortunate fact. I've been at both ends, and I'm under no illusions that I will suffer an eventual reverse in fortunes, and I'm not looking forward to even a 20% reduction in income.

Anyway, I totally get while the OP isn't happy with an offer of 26k. I agree with the poster who said that if languages aren't required for the role, then they're not salary relevant. But the OP is still fresh, and the only way is up for them. Salary improvements can be quite dramatic over a five year period if you're lucky.

FURET

FURET wrote: »

It's a matter of perspective. A lot of people would consider 24k fine, but a lot would also consider it very small. Even the same individual, at different stages of their life, would have differing views as to whether a certain salary is good.

I've lived on various salaries throughout my adult life:

• EUR 130 euro net per week when I was in college (and up to 300 per week during summers; I was positively rich when compared to some classmates, but I worked every spare hour I had, including 25 and 26 December if I could)
• EUR 2200 net per month when I was newly graduated (in IT oddly enough; graduate salaries were around 35k in 2011 where I worked, so I'm surprised to hear that some IT grads start on 27k.
• EUR 5500 net per month right now.

When I was netting 2200 per month, I thought everything was honky dory, and it was, because I lived within a framework of 2200, and any standard of living that was outside of that framework, well, it just wasn't on my radar.
And I did have lots of fun with 2200 per month.
Of course you're right when you allude to what people need as opposed to what they want. But to be honest, when you get used to a situation where you have lots of disposable income and can save at the same time, it becomes very undesirable, shall we say, to go back. You can have a heck of a lot more fun the more money you earn, firstly because you don't have to worry about breaking your budget every time you want to do something, and secondly because you just have a much wider range of options open to you. That's just an unfortunate fact. I've been at both ends, and I'm under no illusions that I will suffer an eventual reverse in fortunes, and I'm not looking forward to even a 20% reduction in income.

Anyway, I totally get while the OP isn't happy with an offer of 26k. I agree with the poster who said that if languages aren't required for the role, then they're not salary relevant. But the OP is still fresh, and the only way is up for them. Salary improvements can be quite dramatic over a five year period if you're lucky.

Yeah, but it's not a 'survival wage'. It isn't. I have quite expensive taste and no doubt could easily blow threw 10k in a month if I had it, but 2000/month still affords a fairly good standard of living for a recent grad. You can go out for dinner a fair bit, drinking, buy new clothes every month, go on holiday 1-2 times a year...that's not 'surviving'.

What do you do BTW?

The_Conductor

Anna Alive Treble wrote: »

Yeah, but it's not a 'survival wage'. It isn't. I have quite expensive taste and no doubt could easily blow threw 10k in a month if I had it, but 2000/month still affords a fairly good standard of living for a recent grad. You can go out for dinner a fair bit, drinking, buy new clothes every month, go on holiday 1-2 times a year...that's not 'surviving'.

What do you do BTW?

He'd want to be on a gross wage of 30k to NET 2k a month. He isn't being offered this salary level (yet anyway- fingers crossed for the OP- though I do think its being a tad optimistic).

sarkozy

To put a bit of evidence-based perspective on the OP's considerations, the average industrial wage is €36,000.

The Minimum Income Standard Calculator (www.misc.ie), which has been developed by the state's Money Advice and Budgeting Service states that a single person paying €500 rent per month would require €21,742.76 Nett to enjoy a 'minimum essential standard of living' in an Irish city. Explanations of this standard are here.

The PWC tax calculator for budget 2014 finds that for a single person, a salary of €26,000 would leave €21,921 after tax - slightly more than the MISC minimum essential standards of living.

Of course, living at this standard is less of a concern to a young person starting out with, in a large organisation, the prospect of an internal career path and relatively few responsibilities. Living at home, I could and did live on about €7,000 per year (paying €500 rent, that would be a gross salaray equivalent of €13,000 - but that's what happens when you pursue a failed career in the charity sector). More money would be nice, but for the OP, it's not essential. But there'd be no scope for savings, etc.

However, it's horrendous for anyone older or with dependents, having to think about savings, health insurance, pensions, children, school books, etc.

JustAThought

The last I heard the situation regarding recession and availability of jobs to graduates in Italy was almost as catastrophic as it is here in Ireland - only perhaps worse. If you are lucky enough to have been offered a job , your first paid job, and your first working role, between two economies where the norm is long term unemployment , I wouldn't be too long or picky in deciding
Whether to accept . By all means ask for more pay but decide whether you will loose the role by haggling and delaying. This country is packed with people literally killing themselves out of desperation to work. All over qualified, and all able to speak English as a
Mother tongue and no doubt with others also learned at school .

I wouldn't dither too much , or you may be left with nothing.

"Nice " to see that American companies that are not paying taxes in Ireland, availing of it a tax exemption status , and no doubt in receipt of IDA set up grants, arn't bothering to employ citizens of the country they are getting their tax exemptions from.
Typical.

martingriff

JustAThought wrote: »

The last I heard the situation regarding recession and availability of jobs to graduates in Italy was almost as catastrophic as it is here in Ireland - only perhaps worse. If you are lucky enough to have been offered a job , your first paid job, and your first working role, between two economies where the norm is long term unemployment , I wouldn't be too long or picky in deciding
Whether to accept . By all means ask for more pay but decide whether you will loose the role by haggling and delaying. This country is packed with people literally killing themselves out of desperation to work. All over qualified, and all able to speak English as a
Mother tongue and no doubt with others also learned at school .

I wouldn't dither too much , or you may be left with nothing.

"Nice " to see that American companies that are not paying taxes in Ireland, availing of it a tax exemption status , and no doubt in receipt of IDA set up grants, arn't bothering to employ citizens of the country they are getting their tax exemptions from.
Typical.

If the job required people with languages other than English and they can't get them here what else should they do.*

*Not saying that is what happened here