Where have all the Altar boys gone?

LordSutch

...and where have all the Hail Mary's gone too?

Seeing as I'm not an an RC myself, I'm not very up to date with RC service procedure, but there I was a few weeks ago accompanying a friend to their Church, fully expecting Hail Mary's, incense, and at least few Altar boys to help the Priest, but it was all very different to what I remembered (from about fifteen years ago).

The Altar boys are now Altar girls, the multiple Hail Mary's where nowhere to be heard, and I never even got a whiff of incense. Lessons were read from the lectern, 'our' CofI hymns* were sung, most of the prayers were also familiar. All in all I could nearly have been at a CofI service, but for the 'ornate' interior of the Church and some of the responses.

All in all a nice experience & interesting how things have changed in the interveining years.

*with a smile

Cabaal

They changed the mass and responses a year or two back, knew a few older people who are still unhappy about this.

Benny_Cake

Can't help you with the altar boys question. All the servers at Masses I've been to in recent years seem to be girls too, not that I've been too often. The Hail Mary was never part of the liturgy of the Mass but some parishes got into the habit of including it with the prayers of the faithful. So it probably varies from place to place.

Not sure about the incense either, although I've found that some high / Anglo-Catholic Anglican churches go in for that even more than Roman Catholics do. That's rare enough in the Church of Ireland though.

Manach

It has been a while since the lovely prayer Hail mary has had been said regularly but incense is only for more formal occasions and not a staple in ordinary masses.

TheMilkyPirate

I'd hazard a guess that the lack of altar boys is down to the abuse scandal. Maybe parents are less happy to let their boys take part.

PyeContinental

TheMilkyPirate wrote: »

I'd hazard a guess that the lack of altar boys is down to the abuse scandal. Maybe parents are less happy to let their boys take part.

Yes I also surmised that this was because there is a general presumption that girls would not be as sexually appealing to them as boys.

Malcolm.

That and they are probably trying to pretend they are less sexist than they are by excluding boys from the altar.
What boy would consider being a priest these days anyway.

Manach

Given my reading from sources like the Irish Catholic, the amount of servers are still relatively high though some what unevenly distributed amongst pasrishes. Given the compareately high levels of oversight care currently in place and that a vast majority of clerics are committed and faithful followers of the Christian message, then this betokens a solid foundation for future growth amongst the servers.

PyeContinental

Manach wrote: »

Given the compareately high levels of oversight care currently in place

Does this new-speak phrase mean that priests are now monitored to make sure that they don't sexually abuse anyone? If so, do you have more details of what form this takes and who does the monitoring?

Manach wrote: »

... and that a vast majority of clerics are committed and faithful followers of the Christian message

Is this intended to imply that there is a second safeguard in that priests would not sexually abuse children anyway, because of their belief in Christian principles? If so, how did this not prevent priests from sexually abusing altar boys in the past?

Manach

Or does your constant repetition on the Church-scandals to the exclusion of all other church-matters mean you are permanently fixated on such?

PyeContinental

^^^ A sort of "we are where we are" type answer, don't you think?

Manach

I think that you'd a vested interest forever linking the Church with scandal, even were off-topic in thread.
I think that what while I could re-cycle my own prior posting on historical State mal-feasance and the how since current child care legislation in the 90s, which I'd have studied on family law, that rates of at least Church based scandal in this have been extremely low.
I think that this is not really be a live issue with you, as this stick just to attack the Church with given the general indifference the chattering classes have to non-Church moral issues.

Benny_Cake

Mod: Clerical child abuse can be discussed on the relevant megathread, not here.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055855692

LordSutch

I'm already beginning to regret the title of this thread, and maybe I should have titled it differently. The point I was making was not necessarily about the absence of Alter boys, but all the differences (from fifteen years ago) that made my experience virtually akin to being at a CofI service.

PS: I also learned after the service & over a cup of tea (in the Church Hall) that Sunday School was going to be introduced after Christmas, which is great for the kids and their understanding of what God & Church is all about, but as far as I know this practice is also newish to the RC Church.

Jaffa Cakes and cucumber sandwiches would have been nice with the tea, but that might have been a step too far )

PyeContinental

Manach wrote: »

I think that you'd a vested interest forever linking the Church with scandal, even were off-topic in thread.

Given that I have never before posted about priests sexually abusing altar boys, I had presumed that when you said "your constant repetition on the Church-scandals" you were not referring to me as an individual, but conflating me with anyone else (all members of this homogenous entity referred to as chattering classes?) that you had previously engaged with in discussion on the subject. Now that you say that you think I have a vested interest in making a link between the church and sexual abuse, I wonder if you are actually confusing me with someone else?

Manach wrote: »

rates of at least Church based scandal in this have been extremely low.

This is reverting to denial, which contradicts the earlier stance of "it happened but there are now procedures in place to prevent it, so let's move on and stop dragging up the past".

As the forum moderator has now prohibited further mentioning of sexual abuse of altar boys by priests as a reason for there being noticeably fewer altar boys, the discussion is over for me, because I cannot think of any other reason why this is so.

Peregrinus

LordSutch wrote: »

...and where have all the Hail Mary's gone too?

Seeing as I'm not an an RC myself, I'm not very up to date with RC service procedure, but there I was a few weeks ago accompanying a friend to their Church, fully expecting Hail Mary's, incense, and at least few Altar boys to help the Priest, but it was all very different to what I remembered (from about fifteen years ago).

The Altar boys are now Altar girls, the multiple Hail Mary's where nowhere to be heard, and I never even got a whiff of incense. Lessons were read from the lectern, 'our' CofI hymns* were sung, most of the prayers were also familiar. All in all I could nearly have been at a CofI service, but for the 'ornate' interior of the Church and some of the responses.

No offence, but I think you may be misremembering how things were fifteen years ago. The way in which mass is celebrated in Ireland has not changed a lot in that time. (Apart from smaller congregations!)

“Hail Marys” never formed a significant feature of the mass. They occasionally turned up in the bidding prayers, but it really was occasional. Sometimes, on a weekday, the members of a sodality might come to church a bit early, or stay a bit late, to say the rosary together, but never on a Sunday.

Outside of cathedrals and a few large churches with a particular liturgical tradition, incense hasn’t featured in most churches on more than rare occasions since the late 1960s. Similarly (in all churches and cathedrals) the scriptures have been read from the lectern since the late 1960s or early 1970s.

There is some variation between different churches and different parishes in terms of the kind of hymns they like to sing, or the frequency with which they break out the thurible. It’s possible that your impressions of change are not the result of the passage of time, but simply of the fact that the church you went to recently is a different on from the church you went to fifteen years ago.

hinault

In our parish we have altar boys and altar girls serving at Mass - and it is great see!

lottpaul

Peregrinus wrote: »

“Hail Marys” never formed a significant feature of the mass. They occasionally turned up in the bidding prayers, but it really was occasional. Sometimes, on a weekday, the members of a sodality might come to church a bit early, or stay a bit late, to say the rosary together, but never on a Sunday.

Outside of cathedrals and a few large churches with a particular liturgical tradition, incense hasn’t featured in most churches on more than rare occasions since the late 1960s. Similarly (in all churches and cathedrals) the scriptures have been read from the lectern since the late 1960s or early 1970s.

There is some variation between different churches and different parishes in terms of the kind of hymns they like to sing, or the frequency with which they break out the thurible. It’s possible that your impressions of change are not the result of the passage of time, but simply of the fact that the church you went to recently is a different on from the church you went to fifteen years ago.

I suspect that many "other" Christians like myself only go to a RC church for a special event such as weddings and more often funerals.
From my experience there has been very little change in the funeral services - plenty of incense, holy water and a decade of the rosary at the evening removal. Usually however not an altar server (boy or girl) in sight but that may be more down to who will bring them out in a rural area at night time. There usually are servers at the morning funeral Mass - but then the school is just across the road and unless kids have changed an awful lot the chance to get out of class for an hour or so would be very tempting

Weddings though seem to have changed a lot. Of the 3 I attended in the past year 2 were not "Masses" at all and there was no distribution of Communion. (And no altar servers at any of them)
When I asked I was told that the parish priest had discussed it with the couples and agreed that as the grooms in each case were not practising Christians of any kind it would be unsuitable and effectively exclude half of the congregation from an important part of the ceremony.
The rest of the service was identical to Mass - readings, prayers, sermon etc.
The music at most of the funerals and weddings tends to be of a very high quality but is effectively just a performance by talented musicians with no congregational participation at all. And the choice of music varies greatly - but I've rarely heard any conventional hymns at funerals and never at weddings.

Benny_Cake

PyeContinental wrote: »

As the forum moderator has now prohibited further mentioning of sexual abuse of altar boys by priests as a reason for there being noticeably fewer altar boys, the discussion is over for me, because I cannot think of any other reason why this is so.

Not so, mention it as a reason if you like (I've no idea whether it is or not). If you want to discuss the abuse issue in any detail, the megathread is the place to do it. Too many threads have been ruined by people arguing over the stats in relation to clerical abuse and who was to blame for the whole thing, so it was decided to confine it to one thread.

Radiosonde

I haven't been a regular mass goer for nearly 20 years, but I was at one last year where the priest blitzed through the entire service in just 15mins. Now that is definitely not how I remember it!

PyeContinental

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Not so, mention it as a reason if you like (I've no idea whether it is or not). If you want to discuss the abuse issue in any detail, the megathread is the place to do it.

Ok, thanks for the clarification. I'll try not to go into too much detail.

The last time I was at a christening, I noted the absence of altar boys and the altar girls in their place. I asked if altar girls were there because altar boys were no longer allowed for their own safety. I was told that only girls are selected from the local primary school now.

I asked were the parents of the girls not still worried that they might be abused even though they may not be a first preference, or would they be so unattractive to priests that parents saw no risk to the girls at all. The answer I was given was that the teacher supervises the priest when the child is in his presence. I asked what do the rest of the children in class do while the teacher is supervising the priest. The answer to this was not known.

I also wondered how a scenario could be prevented where the teacher was also a paedophile and could either look the other way or assist the priest in child abuse while the child was away from the safety of the rest of the class. The answer to this was unknown, and did not seem to have been previously contemplated either.

I also noted that the functions that the child "server" performed were completely non-essential to the performance of the ritual. An adult brought in a table with the eucharist and the jug of water and whatnot. The child then brought these the last few feet to the altar. Same with the bell for ringing during the consecration. The adult who brought it in could have just rung the bell instead at the appropriate moment. It seems to me that there is no good reason to have children assist in the performance of any of the mass. There are enough adults who help with things like basket collections and that sort of thing who could perform this function instead. To me it seems beyond insane to still allow children to be in the company of priests given what we know.

hinault

PyeContinental wrote: »

Ok, thanks for the clarification. I'll try not to go into too much detail.

The last time I was at a christening, I noted the absence of altar boys and the altar girls in their place. I asked if altar girls were there because altar boys were no longer allowed for their own safety. I was told that only girls are selected from the local primary school now.

I asked were the parents of the girls not still worried that they might be abused even though they may not be a first preference, or would they be so unattractive to priests that parents saw no risk to the girls at all. The answer I was given was that the teacher supervises the priest when the child is in his presence. I asked what do the rest of the children in class do while the teacher is supervising the priest. The answer to this was not known.

I also wondered how a scenario could be prevented where the teacher was also a paedophile and could either look the other way or assist the priest in child abuse while the child was away from the safety of the rest of the class. The answer to this was unknown, and did not seem to have been previously contemplated either.

I also noted that the functions that the child "server" performed were completely non-essential to the performance of the ritual. An adult brought in a table with the eucharist and the jug of water and whatnot. The child then brought these the last few feet to the altar. Same with the bell for ringing during the consecration. The adult who brought it in could have just rung the bell instead at the appropriate moment. It seems to me that there is no good reason to have children assist in the performance of any of the mass. There are enough adults who help with things like basket collections and that sort of thing who could perform this function instead. To me it seems beyond insane to still allow children to be in the company of priests given what we know.

A lot of generalisations throughout the post above.

Malcolm.

hinault wrote: »

A lot of generalisations throughout the post above.

That's a bit of a generalisation, would you care to try adressing his points instead ?

You have to admit altar girls would be a lot less attractive to all those gay priests.

LordSutch

Leaving Altar boys/girls aside for one moment, what about the advent of Sunday school in the RC Church I visited? (see post#14).
Up until now, Sunday school has always been the preserve of the Protestant church, so it came as some surprise to me that this non Anglican Church I recently visited was due to introduce Sunday School for their children, commencing after Christmas.

A one off Parish decision maybe?

syklops

Cabaal wrote: »

They changed the mass and responses a year or two back, knew a few older people who are still unhappy about this.

Have they died since?

neemish

PyeContinental wrote: »

G

As the forum moderator has now prohibited further mentioning of sexual abuse of altar boys by priests as a reason for there being noticeably fewer altar boys, the discussion is over for me, because I cannot think of any other reason why this is so.

Really?? I can think of many reasons.

Since Vatican II, catechetical programs for children have been woefully unsatisfactory. I don't condone a return to rote learning, but not one of the programs has given young people a solid grounding in the faith. Plus, faith development tends to end after Confirmation at the age of twelve.

So successive generations have a faith which has not matured, and with each generation the ties to the faith weakens and less people who consider themselves to be Catholic are actually practicing. ("I don't think you need to go to Mass to be a good Catholic")

Add to that a modern reluctance to volunteer, and it's easy to see how we arrived at the present situation. Firstly, you have to BE at Mass on a regular basis to be interested in taking part. Secondly, altar serving has to compete with soccer, rugby, ballet, stage school, a sunday morning lie in. Thirdly, some parents may be more reluctant to let their kids get involved.

With all this to contend with, it's a miracle that we have any altar servers at all!

bleepp

The reason there are not as many alter servers is because the parents don't go to Mass themselves so how are the children of the parish expected to serve as alter boys if they are not brought to Church in the first place.

Many GAA fixtures seem to now take place on Sunday mornings which clash with Mass times.

The argument that the abuse scandals have led to a decrease in alter servers is a bit ridiculous. If a parent assumes their child will be abused if they serve at Mass then surely they will do something more about it rather than just not allow them to volunteer as a server. And if a parent is that paranoid then why let them out the door in the first place.

I believe too the school isn't as involved in organizing the Mass servers for the local Church as was the case in the past, now parents are asked to volunteer their child and with the lack of involvement in most parishes then obviously the numbers will be fewer.

Also I heard once that the Archdiocese of Dublin was one of the first to introduce girl alter servers because of the lack of available boys (because of sport training)

obplayer

bleepp wrote: »

The reason there are not as many alter servers is because the parents don't go to Mass themselves so how are the children of the parish expected to serve as alter boys if they are not brought to Church in the first place.

Many GAA fixtures seem to now take place on Sunday mornings which clash with Mass times.

The argument that the abuse scandals have led to a decrease in alter servers is a bit ridiculous. If a parent assumes their child will be abused if they serve at Mass then surely they will do something more about it rather than just not allow them to volunteer as a server. And if a parent is that paranoid then why let them out the door in the first place.

I believe too the school isn't as involved in organizing the Mass servers for the local Church as was the case in the past, now parents are asked to volunteer their child and with the lack of involvement in most parishes then obviously the numbers will be fewer.

Also I heard once that the Archdiocese of Dublin was one of the first to introduce girl alter servers because of the lack of available boys (because of sport training)

All of the above seems to me to point to the question 'why do less parents believe in fairy tales?' The obvious answer to why there are less altar boys is because there are far less believing catholics. Simplest answer.

bleepp

obplayer wrote: »

All of the above seems to me to point to the question 'why do less parents believe in fairy tales?' The obvious answer to why there are less altar boys is because there are far less believing catholics. Simplest answer.

Less believing or less committed? Its an impossible question to answer, sure some decide not to believe any more and therefore would not be in a position to volunteer their child as an alter server but I think most just don't attach the same value or prestige to having their child serve Mass as in times gone by. A lot of parents who do believe in God are not regular Mass goers.

And according to Pope Francis, it's not a fairy tale
http://http://www.romereports.com/pg155193-pope-francis-to-children-the-birth-of-jesus-is-not-a-fairytale-en

Sheldons Brain

As the forum moderator has now prohibited further mentioning of sexual abuse of altar boys by priests as a reason for there being noticeably fewer altar boys, the discussion is over for me, because I cannot think of any other reason why this is so.

Perhaps you lack imagination, have you considered the new Playstation as the reason?

obplayer

bleepp wrote: »

Less believing or less committed? Its an impossible question to answer, sure some decide not to believe any more and therefore would not be in a position to volunteer their child as an alter server but I think most just don't attach the same value or prestige to having their child serve Mass as in times gone by. A lot of parents who do believe in God are not regular Mass goers.

And according to Pope Francis, it's not a fairy tale
http://http://www.romereports.com/pg155193-pope-francis-to-children-the-birth-of-jesus-is-not-a-fairytale-en

Less committed seems to me to be very close to less believing, if you truly believe then you will commit the time to support your belief. As to pope Francis, when he shows his scientific credentials I will listen to him. Till then he is just like a father reading stories to his kids to help them sleep.

obplayer

obplayer wrote: »

Less committed seems to me to be very close to less believing, if you truly believe then you will commit the time to support your belief. As to pope Francis, when he shows his scientific credentials I will listen to him. Till then he is just like a father reading stories to his kids to help them sleep.

To mods, I realise this is going off topic, I have made my point that the reduction in altar boys is a result in the reduction of catholics. I will leave it at that and go to bed.

bleepp

obplayer wrote: »

Less committed seems to me to be very close to less believing, if you truly believe then you will commit the time to support your belief. As to pope Francis, when he shows his scientific credentials I will listen to him. Till then he is just like a father reading stories to his kids to help them sleep.

You can be less committed and still very much believe in Christ. The census prove that whereby you have a high majority believing in God and declaring themselves Catholic yet weekly Mass attendance is only about 20-30%. They are still catholic albeit not very committed.

It's hard to commit fully to anything in life whether it be Church, work, relationships, new year resolutions or the latest diet. But just because one doesn't commit 100% does not mean they dont believe.

And expecting scientific credentials? The you will be waiting a very long time!!

Manach

bleepp wrote: »

And expecting scientific credentials? The you will be waiting a very long time!!

As an FYI, according to his bio he has a chemistry background.

homer911

LordSutch wrote: »

Leaving Altar boys/girls aside for one moment, what about the advent of Sunday school in the RC Church I visited? (see post#14).
Up until now, Sunday school has always been the preserve of the Protestant church, so it came as some surprise to me that this non Anglican Church I recently visited was due to introduce Sunday School for their children, commencing after Christmas.

A one off Parish decision maybe?

Perhaps/Perhaps not.., but a great development nonetheless. I know that Catholic churches in the midlands recently got together to appoint a Youth Alpha coordinator. Increasingly I'm seeing signs that the Catholic church is taking bible education and evangelism more seriously. There is a growing recognition of not one, but two lost generations to the church, and that if something isn't done about it now, the church will, at least numerically, be a very different place in a just a few years time.

Groups such as Alpha, Building Blocks and Scripture Union, traditionally more Protestant focused, are working a lot closer with Catholic parishes than ever before.

BTW, if other Parishes are thinking of going down the same route, Scripture Union has great leader materials for Sunday School..

http://www.scriptureunion.org.uk/Light/42705.id

LordSutch

bleepp wrote: »

Many GAA fixtures seem to now take place on Sunday mornings which clash with Mass times.

Curious, I wonder how long have the GAA being doing this on a Sunday morning :cool:

tommy2bad

What that poll doesn't say is that the high attended figure was the anomaly, not the drop.
I think the change to altar girls was the first break with altar boys. It's now more common to see girls than boys but both do serve at various times.
Sunday school may be another trend, at the moment it's mostly for the communion and conformation classes but it may become the norm. I expect religious education in schools to become more generalized and eventually to get dropped altogether.
As someone mentioned it's the drop in numbers both in attendance and the number of available priests coupled with the decoupling of religion from the overall culture that is driving these changes.
Roman Catholics will be just another denomination like any other and have to do the spade work themselves like the CoI and the Methodists and Presbyterians have always had to do.
I'm not that sure this is a bad thing, it might be exactly the right thing though it will inevitable see the RCC go the way of the CoE and CoI, seen as an irelevance to the real world.

P_1

Less people going to masses should logically correspond to less children wanting to become altar boys/girls I would have thought.

Malcolm.

Let face it, the main reason for altar girls is that they are a lot less sexually attractive to all those gay priests out there.

P_1

Malcolm. wrote: »

Let face it, the main reason for altar girls is that they are a lot less sexually attractive to all those gay priests out there.

Ah now, I'd be one of the harshest critics of the catholic church and the damage that they've done to this country and our society throughout history but that is being needlessly harsh towards the people who do subscribe to it

Doctor DooM

Malcolm. wrote: »

Let face it, the main reason for altar girls is that they are a lot less sexually attractive to all those gay priests out there.

Miss the days when trolls put some work in.

Malcolm.

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Miss the days when trolls put some work in.

Unlike your drive by, it's a valid observation. Have you anything worthwhile to contribute to the thread ?

Turtwig

Malcom, don't post in this thread again!

lmaopml

homer911 wrote: »

Perhaps/Perhaps not.., but a great development nonetheless. I know that Catholic churches in the midlands recently got together to appoint a Youth Alpha coordinator. Increasingly I'm seeing signs that the Catholic church is taking bible education and evangelism more seriously. There is a growing recognition of not one, but two lost generations to the church, and that if something isn't done about it now, the church will, at least numerically, be a very different place in a just a few years time.

Groups such as Alpha, Building Blocks and Scripture Union, traditionally more Protestant focused, are working a lot closer with Catholic parishes than ever before.

BTW, if other Parishes are thinking of going down the same route, Scripture Union has great leader materials for Sunday School..

http://www.scriptureunion.org.uk/Light/42705.id

Sometimes it surprises me, that it surprises others that Catholics are interested in Scripture and always have been - Catholics that is who are brought up in Christian homes. There are lots of us you know, and we've always been here. It's nice to meet others who are interested too along with us.

PyeContinental

neemish wrote: »

Really?? I can think of many reasons.

Firstly, I think we are answering two slightly different questions.
I am answering the question "Why are there noticably fewer altar-boys [... but altar-girls in their place]? - the bit in square brackets being inferred by me, but also could reasonably be said to have been implied (Lordsutch follows his question up with "the Altar boys are now Altar girls").

You are answering a question more like "Why are there less children (both girls and boys) willing to participate in Catholic Church ceremonies?"

Secondly, by saying "I could not think of any other reason", there was an implied qualification to that, which would have been along the lines of "... that could be a more primary reason as to why there are noticeably fewer altar-boys".

So as for your list, which paraphrasing slightly, includes:

• The children not being exposed to the Catholic doctrine for long enough or in a way that is most effective to indoctrination.
• Not enough people believe in Catholicism any more, and consequently less people go to church any more.
• A modern malaise, apathy, distraction by other more interesting or worthwhile pursuits such as those you mentioned (soccer, ballet, sleeping in on a sunday etc)

You also listed that parents may be more reluctant to let their kids get involved. This is not a reason in itself, but is the very question we are trying to answer. "Why are there less altar boys?" might easily have been phrased as "why do do less parents allow their sons to become involved with priests?".

Your other possible reasons are also corollaries of the primary reason, not alternative possibilities. They all stem from the fact that all rational people have abandoned the Catholic church because it has no moral authority due to what its priests have done. Rational people don't encourage their sons to be altar boys because they know what is likely to happen to them if they do, and because of what they know they also don't encourage the boys to learn about Catholicism or believe in it or go to church (why would they if they don't believe in it any more?) and would rather their sons do anything else instead.

My own hypothesis is that those parents who still want to participate in the catholic church (whatever the reasons for that may be) send their daughters instead because they perceive there to be less of a threat to their daughters from the priests than there would be to their sons.

tommy2bad

PyeContinental wrote: »

Firstly, I think we are answering two slightly different questions.
I am answering the question "Why are there noticably fewer altar-boys [... but altar-girls in their place]? - the bit in square brackets being inferred by me, but also could reasonably be said to have been implied (Lordsutch follows his question up with "the Altar boys are now Altar girls").

You are answering a question more like "Why are there less children (both girls and boys) willing to participate in Catholic Church ceremonies?"

Secondly, by saying "I could not think of any other reason", there was an implied qualification to that, which would have been along the lines of "... that could be a more primary reason as to why there are noticeably fewer altar-boys".

So as for your list, which paraphrasing slightly, includes:

• The children not being exposed to the Catholic doctrine for long enough or in a way that is most effective to indoctrination.
• Not enough people believe in Catholicism any more, and consequently less people go to church any more.
• A modern malaise, apathy, distraction by other more interesting or worthwhile pursuits such as those you mentioned (soccer, ballet, sleeping in on a sunday etc)

You also listed that parents may be more reluctant to let their kids get involved. This is not a reason in itself, but is the very question we are trying to answer. "Why are there less altar boys?" might easily have been phrased as "why do do less parents allow their sons to become involved with priests?".

Your other possible reasons are also corollaries of the primary reason, not alternative possibilities. They all stem from the fact that all rational people have abandoned the Catholic church because it has no moral authority due to what its priests have done. Rational people don't encourage their sons to be altar boys because they know what is likely to happen to them if they do, and because of what they know they also don't encourage the boys to learn about Catholicism or believe in it or go to church (why would they if they don't believe in it any more?) and would rather their sons do anything else instead.

My own hypothesis is that those parents who still want to participate in the catholic church (whatever the reasons for that may be) send their daughters instead because they perceive there to be less of a threat to their daughters from the priests than there would be to their sons.

Just to address the bit in bold.
I agree that the RCC has lost a lot of moral authority but cant agree that this has translated into a lack of belief in general. A lack of belief in organisations more than anything else is generally felt. Whether this is in trade unions, banks, political parties or church the outcome has been the same, a rise in cynicism towards organisations.
As to those who have stuck with the RCC thinking that girls would be less temptation for the priest? Come on! Do you really think anyone thinks like that!

It's as likely as altar girls being part of a plot to have women priests driven by the mammys of Ireland.

PyeContinental

tommy2bad wrote: »

Just to address the bit in bold.
I agree that the RCC has lost a lot of moral authority but cant agree that this has translated into a lack of belief in general. A lack of belief in organisations more than anything else is generally felt. Whether this is in trade unions, banks, political parties or church the outcome has been the same, a rise in cynicism towards organisations.
As to those who have stuck with the RCC thinking that girls would be less temptation for the priest? Come on! Do you really think anyone thinks like that!

It's as likely as altar girls being part of a plot to have women priests driven by the mammys of Ireland.

To answer your question, I actually know people who think that their girls are safe from the possibilty of sexual abuse from the priests because of the fact that they are female. That's what I was referring to in my anecdote earlier.

You say you don't think the church's loss of moral authority has been a causal factor in people having lost faith in the catholic church. Do you think it's only a coincidence? I don't doubt that there are other reasons, but again I would suspect that like before, a lot of them follow on from this main reason or are tied-in with it in some way.

Maybe I am misunderstand you though, because you say that "a lack of belief in organisations more than anything else is generally felt". For "felt" I read "perceived" or "evident". I might be assuming that we have already established that this lack of belief is evident in the significant decline in attendance at catholic church. Is this not already a fact that has been established or can be taken as accepted for this discussion?

(Apologies in advance, but I may not reply for a while, as I'll be quite busy over the next few weeks.)

COYW

Interesting, I had have to attend two RC services in the last six months and I found them both surprisingly different to my past experiences. Last Sunday, there was one elderly gentleman acting as an alter boy, very little in the line of hymns, I don't recall any actually but I was surprised by the numbers in attendance. It was a large church and there was standing room only.

Previous to that, I attended a service which had music but it was a gospel choir, who were outstanding to be fair. The music was like something you would see in the USA, lots of dancing and clapping of hands etc. I got the impression that they were attached to the NUI Maynooth.

Mrs OBumble

LordSutch wrote: »

Leaving Altar boys/girls aside for one moment, what about the advent of Sunday school in the RC Church I visited? (see post#14).
Up until now, Sunday school has always been the preserve of the Protestant church, so it came as some surprise to me that this non Anglican Church I recently visited was due to introduce Sunday School for their children, commencing after Christmas.

A one off Parish decision maybe?

Parish decision, yes.

One off, no.

In places where there are Catholic kids in non-Catholic schools, the parish is responsible for finding some way of giving them the religious education that most Catholic kids get in Catholic schools.

Sunday-school is the most obvious answer, and being used in a few places.

(Must be hell for some Polish kids: regular school Mon-Fri, Polish school on Sat and Sunday-school on Sunday! .... nb, I don't know if there are any actually doing this, but it's possible, there are some big Polish schools around.)

tommy2bad

PyeContinental wrote: »

To answer your question, I actually know people who think that their girls are safe from the possibilty of sexual abuse from the priests because of the fact that they are female. That's what I was referring to in my anecdote earlier.

You say you don't think the church's loss of moral authority has been a causal factor in people having lost faith in the catholic church. Do you think it's only a coincidence? I don't doubt that there are other reasons, but again I would suspect that like before, a lot of them follow on from this main reason or are tied-in with it in some way.

Maybe I am misunderstand you though, because you say that "a lack of belief in organisations more than anything else is generally felt". For "felt" I read "perceived" or "evident". I might be assuming that we have already established that this lack of belief is evident in the significant decline in attendance at catholic church. Is this not already a fact that has been established or can be taken as accepted for this discussion?

(Apologies in advance, but I may not reply for a while, as I'll be quite busy over the next few weeks.)

Which is a bit wierd but nout strange as folk.
I don't get the girls are safer thing, as if pedophilia was a homosexual trait rather than a specific sexual dysfunction.
Yep the child sex abuse scandal was a tipping point for a lot of people into non practice, but I bet njot as many tipped into atheism as into some hand wavie spirituality.
We can take it as read that the general disillusion with organisations contributed to the decline in practicing Catholics. Which begs the question, if the CSA* thing had happened 50 years ago would it have had the same impact on mass attended and general religiosity.

(*Don't you love acronyms? They make the most depraved evil seem so normal!)

lmaopml

PyeContinental wrote: »

To answer your question, I actually know people who think that their girls are safe from the possibilty of sexual abuse from the priests because of the fact that they are female. That's what I was referring to in my anecdote earlier.

You say you don't think the church's loss of moral authority has been a causal factor in people having lost faith in the catholic church. Do you think it's only a coincidence? I don't doubt that there are other reasons, but again I would suspect that like before, a lot of them follow on from this main reason or are tied-in with it in some way.

Maybe I am misunderstand you though, because you say that "a lack of belief in organisations more than anything else is generally felt". For "felt" I read "perceived" or "evident". I might be assuming that we have already established that this lack of belief is evident in the significant decline in attendance at catholic church. Is this not already a fact that has been established or can be taken as accepted for this discussion?

(Apologies in advance, but I may not reply for a while, as I'll be quite busy over the next few weeks.)

Hope your next few weeks are productive - it's a busy time of year for many. Me, I'll be attending Mass with my family and I really 'like' doing so.

To be honest, I think from the onset there are already enough generalisations to keep all the perceived sides happy and content - at least enough to recognise a person who loves generalising and what they do best. It's a real talent that.