Jacques Villeneuve

eviltimeban

So, what are your opinions of Villeneuve? Flash in the pan, lucky, or a great driver?

For me, I always thought he was a strong driver; he came in having had success in America and was fast right out of the box, winning the title in only his second year. The only driver since to win in his rookie year was Hamilton (repeating Villeneuve's feat of winning the title in his second year). Plus, he took it to Schumacher and surprised Michael with his bravery (such as his famous move around the outside in Portugal).

BAR was obviously his undoing. He stuck with them, and while you can admire his loyalty (and paycheck), it didn't do his career any good.

I remember around 2001 he was considering a move, and there was a talk of a move to McLaren, but he and Ron had some personality clash and that stopped it. I often wonder how his career would've been different had he gone to McLaren at that point. He would've been in a top team again with a chance to win.

mickdw

I like villeneuve. Thought he was very quick.
Its not so long ago that he wouldnt rule out a return to F1. I think that was dreamland stuff though.

Excellent driver I reckon, made some poor career decisions.

ZiabR

I really liked him, thought he was very quick. Would have loved to see him make the move to McLaren but sadly it never happened. After this fell through he made some strange decisions.

iDave

Great driver, very brave and made the Indy/Champ Car transition to F1 seamlessly. Something a lot of others haven't been able to do. Shame Williams went off the boil in 98 and wasn't able to defend his title properly.
What I would like to know is, throughout 98 and the run up to 99 season BAR were making all sorts of bold predictions about winning their first race. Did Villeneuve believe it himself?

eviltimeban

I doubt he did, but then again at the same time I doubt he thought he'd have 10 DNFs in a row or whatever it was. That was truly shocking. But there was no way BAR were going to win their first race. I remember at the time they were boasting that every series Reynard entered a car in, they won the first race of the year. Not so for JV - that was the race weekend where his rear wing just fell off!

Its a pity as if there had been a good Williams, it would've been interesting to see a Schumacher / Hakkinen / Villeneuve 3-way battle for the championship. He may have even eventually gone to Ferrari; its not inconceivable he may have won a few more titles as well.

He'll be remembered well I think, but always with that question mark. Sort of like how I feel Button will be remembered. Although Button has had more chances in a decent car than Villeneuve did.

If it was today's market he'd have been straight out of that BAR after 1999 and into something competitive for 2000.

iDave

iDave wrote: »

What I would like to know is, throughout 98 and the run up to 99 season BAR were making all sorts of bold predictions about winning their first race. Did Villeneuve believe it himself?

Who knows? I wouldn't be surprised, I mean money in CART and NASCAR always made an absolutely massive difference so maybe he just had a blindspot about it?

eviltimeban

This is actually on Adrian Reynard's site:

"In 1985 Reynard entered Formula 3 and won it’s first race from pole position; in 1988 Reynard won it’s first race and went on to win the international F3000 title at their first attempt. But in March of 1994, Reynard re-wrote the history books when they entered the IndyCar World Series scoring a debut win from the front row of the grid."

Nothing about BAR on his home page though!

eviltimeban

eviltimeban wrote: »

He'll be remembered well I think, but always with that question mark. Sort of like how I feel Button will be remembered. Although Button has had more chances in a decent car than Villeneuve did.

How many chances has Button had? He had one with Brawn and won the championship and in the 3 decent years with McLaren he outscored Hamilton overall, a driver who probably should've won two titles

V.W.L 11

the one thing i remember villeneuve for was the stroke of luck he had in winning the 1997 hungarian grand prix,anyone recall an arrows leading for most of the race only to lose a 35 second lead in the last 2 laps?schumacher would have won the title only for the throttle problem with the yamaha engine

eviltimeban

V.W.L 11 wrote: »

the one thing i remember villeneuve for was the stroke of luck he had in winning the 1997 hungarian grand prix,anyone recall an arrows leading for most of the race only to lose a 35 second lead in the last 2 laps?schumacher would have won the title only for the throttle problem with the yamaha engine

Maybe, but he didn't.

edit: That was Hill in the Arrows wasn't it?

V.W.L 11

eviltimeban wrote: »

Maybe, but he didn't.

do you not consider that his luckiest win???

eviltimeban

Deleted User wrote: »

How many chances has Button had? He had one with Brawn and won the championship and in the 3 decent years with McLaren he outscored Hamilton overall, a driver who probably should've won two titles

Exactly, Button had more chances than JV... after '97 JV was never in the fastest car on the grid... Button was (e.g. end of last year). From 98-04 JV was in midfield (at best) cars.

iDave

Ah over the course of a season all sorts off moments like that happen. Sure Olivier Panis was raking in the points every week until his accident.

eviltimeban

V.W.L 11 wrote: »

do you not consider that his luckiest win???

I consider his podium in 2001 in Barcelona even luckier... his first taste of F1 champagne since 1998.

RayM

Probably the worst driver ever to win a World Championship.

iDave

Having a North American world champion was a good PR boost for F1

eviltimeban

RayM wrote: »

Probably the worst driver ever to win a World Championship.

Well... I disagree. Hill may have been. Button?

eviltimeban

iDave wrote: »

Having a North American world champion was a good PR boost for F1

And the fact that he was "cool" helped the image as well.

V.W.L 11

eviltimeban wrote: »

I consider his podium in 2001 in Barcelona even luckier... his first taste of F1 champagne since 1998.

well he had hakkinen's clutch to thank for that!

V.W.L 11

iDave wrote: »

Ah over the course of a season all sorts off moments like that happen. Sure Olivier Panis was raking in the points every week until his accident.

panis went down hill after breaking his legs,only for irvine holding him up in spain 1997 i reckon victory was there for the taking

smellslikeshoes

iDave wrote: »

Great driver, very brave and made the Indy/Champ Car transition to F1 seamlessly. Something a lot of others haven't been able to do. Shame Williams went off the boil in 98 and wasn't able to defend his title properly.
What I would like to know is, throughout 98 and the run up to 99 season BAR were making all sorts of bold predictions about winning their first race. Did Villeneuve believe it himself?

His relationship with Craig Pollock was very close, I think it was a case of too much trust rather than Villeneuve being sold by the outrageous claims. Even at the time most people didn't believe Pollock's claims, it would be a bit like taking over Marrusia or Caterham and going from their results this year to claiming they were going to put it on pole for the first race next year. They did have a crazy budget for the time but it was still pretty unlikely.

eviltimeban

smellslikeshoes wrote: »

His relationship with Craig Pollock was very close, I think it was a case of too much trust rather than Villeneuve being sold by the outrageous claims. Even at the time most people didn't believe Pollock's claims, it would be a bit like taking over Marrusia or Caterham and going from their results this year to claiming they were going to put it on pole for the first race next year. They did have a crazy budget for the time but it was still pretty unlikely.

Yeah. At first BAR were considered a bit of a joke, which didn't help JV's standing in the F1 community. He should've bailed after 2000 and gone somewhere decent.

eviltimeban

eviltimeban wrote: »

Exactly, Button had more chances than JV... after '97 JV was never in the fastest car on the grid... Button was (e.g. end of last year). From 98-04 JV was in midfield (at best) cars.

End of last year McLaren had 2 wins and no other podiums in the last 6 races.

eviltimeban wrote: »

Well... I disagree. Hill may have been. Button?

You're definitely looking for a fight :P Hill managed to drag an Arrows of all things to within (I'll censor myself here :P ) a hair of winning a race and in Jerez qualified less than a tenth of a second off the pole.

V.W.L 11

[Deleted User] wrote: »

End of last year McLaren had 2 wins and no other podiums in the last 6 races.

You're definitely looking for a fight :P Hill managed to drag an Arrows of all things to within (I'll censor myself here :P ) a hair of winning a race and in Jerez qualified less than a tenth of a second off the pole.

the hungarian race would have been the shock victory of f1 history had they pulled it off,i'll never forget the look on tom walkinshaw's face the man could not be consoled

eviltimeban

Deleted User wrote: »

End of last year McLaren had 2 wins and no other podiums in the last 6 races.

Yes but they said they had the fastest car right at the end. Which is why they expected to do well this year.

Deleted User wrote: »

You're definitely looking for a fight :P Hill managed to drag an Arrows of all things to within (I'll censor myself here :P ) a hair of winning a race and in Jerez qualified less than a tenth of a second off the pole.

Well look, I like Hill, I just don't think he was amazing. He fought hard. Villeneuve had it easier, but he had to fight in the midfield.

Think about it though, had the 1 - 10 points awarded system been in place back then, BAR / JV would've been regular points scorers...

V.W.L 11

eviltimeban wrote: »

Yes but they said they had the fastest car right at the end. Which is why they expected to do well this year.



Well look, I like Hill, I just don't think he was amazing. He fought hard. Villeneuve had it easier, but he had to fight in the midfield.

Think about it though, had the 1 - 10 points awarded system been in place back then, BAR / JV would've been regular points scorers...

was it not in 1999 that the BAR/JV combination retired from the first 11 consecutive races???1999 was a disaster for them,new or old points system,pollock was talking throughhis arse stating "i think we will win our first race" fast forward 10 years and ross brawn done it in the "same" team different guise

eviltimeban

V.W.L 11 wrote: »

was it not in 1999 that the BAR/JV combination retired from the first 11 consecutive races???1999 was a disaster for them,new or old points system,pollock was talking throughhis arse stating "i think we will win our first race" fast forward 10 years and rosd brawn done it in the "same" team different guise

No I meant since then. Look at the results since 2000 - 2003. In 2001 he was in the top 10 in every race he finished. Same bar one race in 2002 (OK he had a good few retirements). 2003 was plagued with more retirements but he had a few 9ths and 10ths. Even with his two Renault '04 races he got 10th place twice. BMW Sauber didn't go so well but he had a few top 10s.

V.W.L 11

eviltimeban wrote: »

No I meant since then. Look at the results since 2000 - 2003. In 2001 he was in the top 10 in every race he finished. Same bar one race in 2002 (OK he had a good few retirements). 2003 was plagued with more retirements but he had a few 9ths and 10ths. Even with his two Renault '04 races he got 10th place twice. BMW Sauber didn't go so well but he had a few top 10s.

yes i recall those results;impossible to compare era's though,differents rules for points engines etc,after his renault "flop" sauber/BMW sauber should not have signed him,he was past it,even kubica proved it when he replaced him,he was brought into renault to replace trulli but was actually slower than him in terms of pace,B.A.R was his undoing,ill advised by pollock

eviltimeban

I also think JV never got to grips with the narrower cars / grooved tyres that came in from 98... he was always complaining about them. If that new rule hadn't come in and Renault hadn't left, he'd have won in 98 easily, and maybe even 99.

Anyway. Shoulda coulda woulda. Would be interesting if he became a team owner.

V.W.L 11

eviltimeban wrote: »

I also think JV never got to grips with the narrower cars / grooved tyres that came in from 98... he was always complaining about them. If that new rule hadn't come in and Renault hadn't left, he'd have won in 98 easily, and maybe even 99.

Anyway. Shoulda coulda woulda. Would be interesting if he became a team owner.

technically he had a renault engine in 98,a mechachrome badged 1 year old renaukt engine i know but adrian newey had a big influence on the 97 car before leaving for mclaren,i'd like to see him in a red bull just to see how far off the pace he would be,wishful thinking i know.....put schumacher in one too!

eviltimeban

Would be great if they could wheel out their championship winning cars and all race against each other... although they'd have to be from the same year!

There should be a "masters" race where all the old guys (like Villeneuve, Schumacher, Hakk, Alesi, Brundle etc etc) get in cars and have a bit of a blast. Just make one chassis / engine and have it about the drivers. But their liveries could be the car they were most associated with (Rothmans colours / red Ferrari / silver for Hakkinen etc).

edit - I'm not talking about the ROC either!

Back to JV, I haven't really been paying attention to anything he's done since F1 (with the exception of Le Mans). It looked like he was having a tough enough time in Nascar, did he ever do anything over there? Is he still racing?

V.W.L 11

eviltimeban wrote: »

Would be great if they could wheel out their championship winning cars and all race against each other... although they'd have to be from the same year!

There should be a "masters" race where all the old guys (like Villeneuve, Schumacher, Hakk, Alesi, Brundle etc etc) get in cars and have a bit of a blast. Just make one chassis / engine and have it about the drivers. But their liveries could be the car they were most associated with (Rothmans colours / red Ferrari / silver for Hakkinen etc).

edit - I'm not talking about the ROC either!

Back to JV, I haven't really been paying attention to anything he's done since F1 (with the exception of Le Mans). It looked like he was having a tough enough time in Nascar, did he ever do anything over there? Is he still racing?

they had a grand prix masters series that was short lived,seperate from the race of champions,he was supposed to make a comeback with the failed DART gp team in 2010 AFAIK,back in JV's day it was MOSTLY talent on the grid not pay drivers like crashtor maldonado and max chilton but to name 2,winner or not maldonado is a pay driver

eviltimeban

V.W.L 11 wrote: »

they had a grand prix masters series that was short lived,seperate from the race of champions,he was supposed to make a comeback with the failed DART gp team in 2010 AFAIK,back in JV's day it was MOSTLY talent on the grid not pay drivers like crashtor maldonado and max chilton but to name 2,winner or not maldonado is a pay driver

Stefan GP wasn't it? Or is that the same thing? He had a seat fitting apparently.

In a way I'm glad it didn't work out; if he'd be scampering around with Marussia and Caterham it wouldn't have done him any good. He might have done well somewhere like Force India, good midfield placements, the odd podium.

V.W.L 11

eviltimeban wrote: »

Stefan GP wasn't it? Or is that the same thing? He had a seat fitting apparently.

In a way I'm glad it didn't work out; if he'd be scampering around with Marussia and Caterham it wouldn't have done him any good. He might have done well somewhere like Force India, good midfield placements, the odd podium.

Stefan thats the one!it was Dart who tried and failed to take over the remains of Prost gp,did he approach mclaren before they signed hamilton to partner alonso?i stand open to correction on it

Tea 1000

I personally don't think Jacques was great. Decent enough, but tried to be as good as his old man I think. Same as Damon. Nice guy, but his name was greater than his skill level. I think Jacques was better than Damon, I'd rate Jacques as average in F1 driver terms, maybe slightly above, but Damon a good bit below. I struggle to think of a driver who couldn't have won in that Williams!

eviltimeban

Tea 1000 wrote: »

I personally don't think Jacques was great. Decent enough, but tried to be as good as his old man I think. Same as Damon. Nice guy, but his name was greater than his skill level. I think Jacques was better than Damon, I'd rate Jacques as average in F1 driver terms, maybe slightly above, but Damon a good bit below. I struggle to think of a driver who couldn't have won in that Williams!

Pedro Diniz.

iDave

Tea 1000 wrote: »

I personally don't think Jacques was great. Decent enough, but tried to be as good as his old man I think. Same as Damon. Nice guy, but his name was greater than his skill level. I think Jacques was better than Damon, I'd rate Jacques as average in F1 driver terms, maybe slightly above, but Damon a good bit below. I struggle to think of a driver who couldn't have won in that Williams!

David Coulthard

Tea 1000

OK, Diniz. Chilton, but I think Coulthard might have done it... depends on his team mate!

iDave

Tea 1000 wrote: »

OK, Diniz. Chilton, but I think Coulthard might have done it... depends on his team mate!

That's the problem, the team mate. Always got outclassed. Had pretty nifty cars in 95, 98, 99, 2000 and never had a sniff of a title.

eviltimeban

iDave wrote: »

That's the problem, the team mate. Always got outclassed. Had pretty nifty cars in 95, 98, 99, 2000 and never had a sniff of a title.

The writing was on the wall with that "gentlemen's agreement" with Hakkinen in Australia 98, that whoever went into the first corner first would be the winner (Hakkinen in both cases).

DC should've said "f**k that" and won that race when he had the chance. From that point on Hakkinen had the upper hand. You think Senna or Prost would've moved over? Sure, Hakk would've been mad but hey, you gotta show them who's boss right?

iDave

eviltimeban wrote: »

The writing was on the wall with that "gentlemen's agreement" with Hakkinen in Australia 98, that whoever went into the first corner first would be the winner (Hakkinen in both cases).

DC should've said "f**k that" and won that race when he had the chance. From that point on Hakkinen had the upper hand. You think Senna or Prost would've moved over? Sure, Hakk would've been mad but hey, you gotta show them who's boss right?

Multi 21 :P

eviltimeban

iDave wrote: »

Multi 21 :P

Totally!

The difference of course is that one was a team order, the other an agreement between drivers.

iDave

eviltimeban wrote: »

Totally!

The difference of course is that one was a team order, the other an agreement between drivers.

Well Villeneuve certainly didn't show too much respect to Hill in his first year. In fact he made sure that season wasn't a total right off in terms of spectacle.

eviltimeban

iDave wrote: »

Well Villeneuve certainly didn't show too much respect to Hill in his first year. In fact he made sure that season wasn't a total right off in terms of spectacle.

There was huge excitement when Villeneuve was signed, like "what can this guy do?" It was an exciting time.

iDave

eviltimeban wrote: »

There was huge excitement when Villeneuve was signed, like "what can this guy do?" It was an exciting time.

Yeah it was when I was starting to get into F1, great memories of watching F1 during that era. Think now is the time to remind ourselves how good the R**thmans cars looked.



Then he ended up in this monstrosity.

eviltimeban

iDave wrote: »

IMG]http://www.allf1.info/gallery/pictures/jacques8.jpg[/IMG]

Yeah, that white, blue and gold livery was such a strong one, and must have brought fear to its competitors! I always thought that switching to the Winfield livery was the beginning of the end:

eviltimeban

Good article about year 1 of BAR:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1147212-british-american-racing-debut-all-bravado-with-zero-results

V.W.L 11

"ok,Fernando is faster than you.Can you confirm you understood the message"

V.W.L 11

Tea 1000 wrote: »

I personally don't think Jacques was great. Decent enough, but tried to be as good as his old man I think. Same as Damon. Nice guy, but his name was greater than his skill level. I think Jacques was better than Damon, I'd rate Jacques as average in F1 driver terms, maybe slightly above, but Damon a good bit below. I struggle to think of a driver who couldn't have won in that Williams!

Gaston Mazzacane,Tarso Marques,Narain Karthikeyan,i could be here all night but thats an example,bearing in mind Karthikeyan is an ex williams test driver he wasn't even good enough for a race seat

eviltimeban

V.W.L 11 wrote: »

Gaston Mazzacane,Tarso Marques,Narain Karthikeyan,i could be here all night but thats an example,bearing in mind Karthikeyan is an ex williams test driver he wasn't even good enough for a race seat

Alex Yoong, Sato, Firman, Friesacher, Baumgartner, Inoue, Lavaggi, Nakano, Sarrazin... the list is endless.

You only have to go here: http://www.f1rejects.com/drivers/index.html to see who else!