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ATH Quarter-final 3: Omackeral vs Beakerjoe
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17-12-2013 10:50pm#11 Semi Final has been decided, now to decide who will line up in the second one and to do so we have another question and one that this time was submitted by thebostoncrabSimplified version of the rules:
I will post a topic and you have to post your response including why you made that choice within a given time limit (before the next match is scheduled to begin), take care while making your responses however as the other contestant can counter your arguement i.e pointing out possible flaws in what youve said.
*you can only counter an arguement two times so make sure your point is worth making. If someone's defense of their arguement isnt good it will count against them.
*You can use the same answer as your opponent if you wish i.e you agree with their choice however its hard to win a debate when your making the same points someone has already made
see the OP of the main thread for further details or if any examples are needed check out previous years competitions.
Q: "Wrestling fans are notorious for voicing what they like and don't like in pro wrestling, but what one complaint from fans do you think carries the most amount of unjustified or unfair criticism?"
after your first post: why would your choice be better than your oponents?
so have at it and g'luck lads!Who should progress to the Semi final? 8 votes
Omackeral0%Beakerjoe100%
8 votes
1
Comments
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BeakerjoeI am not going to go with an indy darling being overlooked, an InVasion fantasy angle that should have been or a certain someone holding people down using politicking schemes. Nope. The whinge that I most have a problem with and feel is unjustified can be summed up with three simple words.
''You Can't Wrestle''
Unless you are deaf or are brainwashed by WWE commentary teams, you will have this chant being directed at company mega star John Cena. This is on a different scale to the 'Let's Go Cena/Cena Sucks' duel chants that have often enveloped arena's worldwide. That chant is acknowledged on air from time to time as the mic men try to hammer home that Cena can be controversial and polarizing. The ''You Can't Wrestle'' brigade are probably cut from the same cloth that chant Husky Harris at Bray Wyatt, who are neither smart nor funny, just smarky and annoying. The YCW crew often attempt to lampoon the multiple time World Champion by referencing his so-called Five Moves of Doom. Now if I were to say side-Russian leg sweep, second rope elbow drop, inverted atomic drop, back breaker and Sharpshooter, the majority of folks would instantly recognise those as famous signature moves of Bret 'Hitman' Hart and would also agree he is one of the finest ever wrestlers to lace up a pair of boots. So what's the difference? Also, it's an absolute myth that Cena only has the handful of moves. Check out on WWE's own site his underrated arsenal, it's only 90 seconds long so have a look...
http://www.wwe.com/videos/10-moves-from-john-cenas-underrated-arsenal-wwecom-exclusive-nov-10-2013-26162347
Umaga, Bobby Lashley, The Great Khali. When you think of these three, you think of, well, not much. They were average at best bewteen them yet John Cena gave each of them the match of their careers.
Royal Rumble 2007, John Cena vs Umaga -Last man Standing.
This match was as fluid as it was brutal. Cena made Umaga look a million dollars here and this momentum helped him to kick on and arguably main event WrestleMania 23 in the Battle of the Billionaires. It was easily a 4 star bout and featured an intensity yet vunerablity we dont usually associate with Cena.
That same year at the Great American Bash, Cena went one on one with the greenhorn Bobby Lashley in the main event for the WWE Title. Again, he made this dull as dishwater competitor interesting for the duration of their programme and they linked up well on the PPV. Lashley never really did business like this again after this. Coincidence?
Best of all, the lumbering, barely mobile Great Khali had his only ever respectable outing against John Cena at One Night Stand 2007 in a Falls Count Anywhere match.
Now, on the flipside, we go to London, England and the date is April 23rd 2007. We're live and Raw is on the air. With an hour left of run time, the main event has started and it's The Heartbreak Kid Shawn Michaels vs John Cena. This match went a full 60 mins and had everyone and their dog enamoured. It's no surprise then that this battle was named PWI Match of the Year for 2007. That, in itself, states a lot. I must remind y'all that I've only cherry picked from one year here. We could go back a year and speak of the excellent heel based tussle at ECW One Night Stand 2006 vs Rob Van Dam or fast forward to something more recent like Summerslam 2013 vs Daniel Bryan, two outstanding wrestling matches. Should I mention Money in the Bank 2011 vs CM Punk and yet another PWI Match of the Year Award.
I want to dis-spell this notion that Cena can't wrestle once and for all.0 -
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BeakerjoeWhen fans say things like Cenacant wrestle, They mean hes not a technical wrestler up on par with Chris Benoit, Brian Danielson and Kurt Angle.
Not on a par with Benoit, Bryan and Angle? That's hardly a secret! Who is? You've listed possibly the three finest technicians in the last 15 years there. One is a world travelled dungeon graduate, the next is a hybrid wrestling masterclass on tap and Kurt Angle is a gold freaking medalist! They're not chanting because he's not a top 10 of all time wrestler. If that was the case, Mick Foley would have heard far worse, and that's not a knock on him by any means.Cena can certainly hang with the best of them but lets be honest he is made look good if hes in the Ring with HBK, Jericho and CM Punk. He can wrestle, no doubt
You yourself have just stated that he can hang with the best of them. So how can you even argue the point?! Also, check out the bolded part of the above quote. As for the three guys you mentioned, he has great chemistry with them all. Match of the Year in what was essentially an Iron Man match with Michaels. You gonna tell me that Shawn did all the work for the full hour? HBK himself would be the first to give Cena his due. Ditto for Punk, Match of the Year again in 2011. That's not an award one wins on their own, no matter what youPut say any of the above mentioned names in a match with a guy like Albert for example. Ive seen Cena take on the Former Lord Tensai and the match sucked.
You said out any of the above three you mentioned in with Tensai. Ok how about Chris Jericho vs Sweet T. I'm sorry but that's going to suck just as hard. 5'9 (and often time sloppy) Chris Jericho is not gonna have a battle for the ages with the former Hip Hop Hippo.The fans chant you cant wrestle at Cena because it is the equivalent to heel heat. They don't like Cena, so they chant that, simple.
I'm sorry but that doesn't fly. If they don't like him, tell him he sucks, boo him. And they do that! Saying you can't wrestle is THE ultimate smark comment. These are Internet fans banding together to be heard. The common casual fan doesn't know what workrate, psychology and selling are. These YCW boys are trying so very hard to show they have inside knowledge when they band together yet I bet you they would cream themselves if they ever met John Cena in public.The Husky Harris chants are different, usually by fans of Bray who think they are hilarious by knowing their "insider knowledge". Different all together in my book.
Ah come on now, by fans of Bray?! If they were fans they would let him try get his current act over instead of bombarding the segment. These are the very same D-bags who chant You Can't Wrestle to show their supposed great knowledge.The fans are sick of Cenas on screen persona and look at him in a smarky heel way.
Fair enough, his character is stale. We aren't debating that though. His persona has nothing to do with his in ring acumen.Bret a much more popular fan favourite than John. And when he went stale he evolved. John Cenas character hasn't evolved and the adult fans are a bit sick of him. Its not Johns fault but because he hasn't changed the adult fans are tired of him at the minute, and when the are sick of someone they will let him know and pick out any flaw to chant at him. His short comings as a technical master in the ring is what they chant occasionally.
I don't know if Bret was more popular? I mean, he had his fans. But all you have to do is look at merch sales for John Cena. It's a brand in itself. Arenas full of his shirts and headbands. But that's beside the point yet again, as is the need to bring staleness and character evolution into it. As for the technical master comment, nobody in their right mind would describe Cena as one. Doesn't mean he can't wrestle though. Would you call Cody Rhodes a technical master? Probably not but he sure as hell can wrestle. Same with John.Again as ive said he can wrestle but and he does try but he will never be a Daniel Bryan in regards of wrestling ability and this is why they chant it.
So in saying that, you'll agree that the chants are unjustified.
Now, onto your argument.
The PG era.
I'd like to start by mentioning the very man you kept referring to in relation to my post, Mr Daniel Bryan. The PG era actually cost this man his job. When he and the Nexus crew hit in the summer of 2010, it was huge. The hottest most realistic ending to a Raw in years. The thoughts of what was going to happen next week when these 8 upstarts appeared kept everyone chatting.... And the there were 7. Top brass sacked Bryan as he pushed the boat out choking Justin Roberts. We had never seen anything as brash, or as edgey, in quite a while and it was brilliant. But Bryan was sacked right away. If the cards fell a different way, we could be watching him, or not watching him as the case could be, in the Impact Zone. It's a testament to D Bry that his popularity got him hired back. However the Nexus lost massive momentum right off the bat and never achieved what it should have, and it can possibly be tracked back to this one incident.
Another major gripe I have is the lack of blood. I don't want Ric Flair juice jobs or Steve Corino crimson masks. Nobody does. But man, would a little bit of colour in say a Hell in a Cell battle not add more drama to a bitter feud, it's realistic. Steve Austin's starship to the top following his epic loss to Bret Hart at WrestleMania 13. What's the one lasting image of that bout?
We all know wrestling isn't real, but here, it was.
Speaking of Steve Austin, isn't possibly the biggest star of all time. Now can you imagine a censored Stone Cold not cursing, not flipping the bird, not busting people wide open? He was the biggest deal ever and it's because he didnt have to worry about not saying 'ass'. Same for DX. Same for The Rock. When Rock came back, he was allowed to say what he wanted at anytime. Nobody else was afforded the same luxury. As a result, Dwayne looked cool as ever while present day stars have to toe the company line and makes them look lamer in comparison.
Look, I'm not saying we need to go back to chair shots to the face or anything like that but pushing the boat out every so often can be a great pay off and invest people that bit more. I think people are justified at times when they raise these points.0 -
You dont here the crowd chanting "He cant wrestle at say, Dolph Ziggler or Damien Sandow or at Edge. These are hardly the best technical wrestlers today but they are still way ahead of Cena. Cena isnt a bad wrestler, but hes average at best. I can name many more wrestlers who in my opinion better than Cena. And Im sure if you asked any of the lads who chant the infamous chant of "he cant wrestle" they will tell you the same. CenaNot on a par with Benoit, Bryan and Angle? That's hardly a secret! Who is?
Cena isnt over with the adult fans like Foley was. Foleys personas never went stale. Its a knock on effect in Johns case. His on screen character and promos went stale a long time ago, and he was always looked on as an average wrestler, technically, just like foley was. Foley unfortunatly went down the road of Hurting himself in big, sick bumps and that made him a fearless hero in their eyes. Cena unfortunatly hasnt done anything amazing to keep teh fans on his side. The fans, being sick of his persona picked on him for his average in ring ability. The Adult fans have grown tired of him, as I have most week. No matter how much he tries or works hard he will always be seen as an average wrestler in the ring IMO.Mick Foley would have heard far worse, and that's not a knock on him by any means.
By hang with the best of them, I mean that he can be in there with a great and be made look like a million bucks by the top technical wrestlers. I have no doubt that he worked hard during his Match of the Year bouts but Im under no illusion that he is on the same level as those he faced. I believe he was carried in each of these matches by his opponent. The proof is in the pudding my friend, as I said put Cena in there with a grappler like Tensai and you get a poor match since nether are above average wrestlers and both arent over with the adult fans. Put Daniel Bryan in there and not only will you get a better match techincally, but the fans will be more into it and making it more exciting to watch.You yourself have just stated that he can hang with the best of them. So how can you even argue the point?!
As i said i do think he can wrestle, but your missing teh point as to why people say "he cant wrestle". It means he cant wrestle like a HBK and when the fans are against him or dont like his feud at the time, they will pick him up on the fact that he isnt what one would call a techincal master. Its the way the fans are. If they are unhappy they will attack your flaws. When guys like Bryan, Angle and HBK have great matches wityh almost anyone, Cena pales in comparison.
I think a lot of factors won John the award in these cases. A great guy to work with in the build up, a hot crowd on both nights made hotter by the fact they wanted to see the stale John Cena lose and I do think he was carried by his opponent in both of those matches to a certain extent. He turned up and most likely gave it his best shot but ultimately he was in there with a guy who made him look like a million bucks each time.You gonna tell me that Shawn did all the work for the full hour? HBK himself would be the first to give Cena his due. Ditto for Punk, Match of the Year again in 2011. That's not an award one wins on their own, no matter what you
Cena has had an awful lot of bad matches. Ryback, Mark Henry, A few with Randy Orton (who always seems to be dragged down by Cena in their matches IMO), Del Rio, Batista, Sheamus.... some of them are much better wrestlers than Cena and some are worse but the result is always the same. I do be bored watching these feuds and ultimately the matches. In some of these matches teh infamous chant would start up and its justified when the fans dislike the match they are seeing.
I think it may well be a dud, but it also may not. Id have much more Faith in Chris Jericho pulling a better match out of Albert than Cena would. Jericho would at least move quicker around the ring than John and his change of pace could result in a better match. I believe Jericho could get a better match technically with the former A Train than John ever could.You said out any of the above three you mentioned in with Tensai. Ok how about Chris Jericho vs Sweet T. I'm sorry but that's going to suck just as hard. 5'9 (and often time sloppy) Chris Jericho is not gonna have a battle for the ages with the former Hip Hop Hippo.
Is it? I doubt that. I feel they just arent enjoying a John Cena match/feud. Id imagine "ALLLBEEERRRT" chants directed at Sweet T and as you said "The Husky Harris" chants that go Bray Wyatts way a much more smarky comment. "Oh look I know his previous gimmick/moniker, lets chant that" is much more annoying and in Cena's "you cant wrestle" is just the fans way of saying "no matter how hard you try, you'll never be Kurt angle good". It may be a little smarky but its hardly the "Ultimate Smark comment".Saying you can't wrestle is THE ultimate smark comment.
Ah it links in though. When characters go stale, like in Cenas case, get on his case about anything, including his wrestling ability. When The Miz was over, no one cared about his in ring ability that much. His heel run as US champ was well recieved. When his character went stale, fans got on his back and the same "you cant wrestle" chants reared their head.Fair enough, his character is stale. We aren't debating that though. His persona has nothing to do with his in ring acumen.
I mean Bret was more poplular in a ratio aspect. The business was in decline when Bret was champ, similar to Cena. If you watched WWF tv in 93-96, Bret was loved by all or most that watched. Same cant be said for Cena as its a clear divide between the younger fan and the older fans.I don't know if Bret was more popular? I mean, he had his fans. But all you have to do is look at merch sales for John Cena. It's a brand in itself
It wasnt PG that nearly lost D-Bry his job, it was the the fact that he went too far according to WWE rules. He may not have known the rules and that ultimately saved his ass I think. It was a simple rule about choking that is in place for a valid reason. If he didnt choke him with his tie, it wouldnt have taken the edge away from the angle. Someone messed up and either didnt inform Daniel of the rule or they informed him and thought it would be ok. When someone messes up in any other job, there are consequences. Unfortunatly Daniel was martar at first but WWE obviously just fired him to save face and most likely always was going to re hire him in a few weeks after, which was reported shortly after he was released. For all we know Daniel was well aware he was being released only to be re hire d a month later.I'd like to start by mentioning the very man you kept referring to in relation to my post, Mr Daniel Bryan. The PG era actually cost this man his job. When he and the Nexus crew hit in the summer of 2010, it was huge. The hottest most realistic ending to a Raw in years. The thoughts of what was going to happen next week when these 8 upstarts appeared kept everyone chatting.... And the there were 7. Top brass sacked Bryan as he pushed the boat out choking Justin Roberts.
The WWE product went PG to help entice new young fans to the product just like in the mid 80's - 90s. PG programming could eventually bring in more money, higher ratings, and bigger PPV buys and hopefully if done right bring the compant out of its slump. Along with PG there are do's and donts. The tie incident was a dont and if avoided it the angle would have still been as edgy. It was an unnessasary break of PG rules that wouldnt take anything away from the angle if it didnt happen.
Firstly the lasting image I have is that of Stone Cold being cheered out of the building. Blood or no blood he was over. But Ill say that I do think the odd spill of blood can add to a match. But its all not PGs fault. Things are different in the world today and WWE have to adapt. In 2006 Backlash were fined for the blood on teh show. And then this incident.Another major gripe I have is the lack of blood. I don't want Ric Flair juice jobs or Steve Corino crimson masks. Nobody does. But man, would a little bit of colour in say a Hell in a Cell battle not add more drama to a bitter feud, it's realistic. Steve Austin's starship to the top following his epic loss to Bret Hart at WrestleMania 13. What's the one lasting image of that bout?
Yes Cowboy Bob Orton. His Hepatitis scare is another reason why you dont see blood in WWE anymore. He nearly infected others with it. Its a safety messaure now. Its common sense in fairness.
Im not saying the Attitude era was bad, i feel like it was probably a golden era. But it got stale eventually and with teh world changing around WWE, they adapted. Now with the business in decline they went PG in order to, what is my opinion, save the busniess from going further into decline. Its smart and in the long run a good decision. The boat can be pushed out and I can be shocked while in the PG era. Like I was when CM Punk dropped the Pipe bomb or when Mark Henry Turned on Cena.Speaking of Steve Austin, isn't possibly the biggest star of all time. Now can you imagine a censored Stone Cold not cursing, not flipping the bird, not busting people wide open? He was the biggest deal ever and it's because he didnt have to worry about not saying 'ass'. Same for DX. Same for The Rock. When Rock came back, he was allowed to say what he wanted at anytime. Nobody else was afforded the same luxury. As a result, Dwayne looked cool as ever while present day stars have to toe the company line and makes them look lamer in comparison.0 -
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