Irish Scrumhalves

PlayerTrader13

*Ages as of the start of 2014 season

Over 30
Peter Stringer[36] - Bath
Isaac Boss[34]
Eoin Reddan[33]
Frank Murphy[32]
Tomas O'Leary[30] - London Irish
Gerry Hurley[30]

4 capped players in this group. Stringer probably retires at the end of the season, both Reddan and Boss are out of contract at the end of the year. Do both return to Leinster?
Hurley is on a year long development contract, at 30 he is nothing more than a depth player. O'Leary's career has fallen off. Murphy's contract is up this year and it's hard to know if he will be playing next season.

25 and over
Paul Marshall[29]
Duncan Williams[28]
Paul O'Donohue[27]
Ian Porter[26]
Cathal Sherdian[25]
Conor Murray[25]

Two capped players in this group. Only one player who is first choice at his club, Murray. Murray remains a central player for Ireland and luckily he just signed a two year extension. Marshall is a decent player but will always be behind Pienaar at Ulster. Williams and Sheridan are both out of contract this year, do both stay at Munster? Paul O'Donohue is a decent backup at Connacht, Porter is on a year long development deal hard to know what will happen with him.

24 and under
John Cooney[24]
Michael Heaney[23]
James Hart[23] - Grenoble
Kieran Marmion[22]

no capped players in this group, both Cooney and Heaney were part of Emerging ireland last summer but both have had very limited opportunities at their provinces this season. Hart is shining in France, recently signing a new contract until 2017. Marmion is shining for Connacht but remains uncapped. Both Marmion and Hart are dual qualified.

Academy
Marcus Walsh[22]
Brian Haugh[21]
Luke McGrath[21]
Dave Shanahan[21]
Caolin Blade[20]
Jack Cullen[19]

Various levels of hype and experience. Walsh and Haugh never featured for Ireland u20 level and expectations for both don't seem to be very high. Shanahan impressed last season and moved from Leinster to Ulster in the summer. McGrath is the most hyped player on the list and much is expected of him. Not much known about Blade and Cullen, Blade appears to be favourite for the Ireland u20 sh spot and Cullen recently started for Ireland u19.

Fireball07

Wrt to the Munster players.


Great to sign Murray up, Hurley might be kept on for depth... he's a very good AIL player and will do a job in a pinch.

I'd be shocked if Sheridan doesn't sign on again. Think he's secured his place as primary backup. Aged 28, Williams has actually been better this season but he's never going to be better than 3rd choice..... is it worth renewing? We probably need at least 3 senior scrum-halves, if not 4. Do we jump Haugh up? Do we make a signing?

I don't know tbh, maybe Williams will be given another year.

thomond2006

Sheridan will definitely be offered a deal, not sure about Williams and Hurley.

It's a shame that Hart is contracted until 2017. I think Leinster would definitely be looking to bring him back once Reddan and/or Boss retire.

phog

After Saturday I'd be shocked to see Sheridan if Munster didn't offer him a new contract and I think he'll stay put if he gets a contract.

bilston

PlayerTrader13 wrote: »

*Ages as of the start of 2014 season

Over 30
Peter Stringer[36] - Bath
Isaac Boss[34]
Eoin Reddan[33]
Tomas O'Leary[30] - London Irish
Gerry Hurley[30]

4 capped players in this group. Stringer probably retires at the end of the season, both Reddan and Boss are out of contract at the end of the year. Do both return to Leinster?
Hurley is on a year long development contract, at 30 he is nothing more than a depth player. O'Leary's career has fallen off.

25 and over
Paul Marshall[29]
Duncan Williams[28]
Paul O'Donohue[27]
Ian Porter[26]
Cathal Sherdian[25]
Conor Murray[25]

Two capped players in this group. Only one player who is first choice at his club, Murray. Murray remains a central player for Ireland and luckily he just signed a two year extension. Marshall is a decent player but will always be behind Pienaar at Ulster. Williams and Sheridan are both out of contract this year, do both stay at Munster? Paul O'Donohue is a decent backup at Connacht, Porter is on a year long development deal hard to know what will happen with him.

24 and under
John Cooney[24]
Michael Heaney[23]
James Hart[23] - Grenoble
Kieran Marmion[22]

no capped players in this group, both Cooney and Heaney were part of Emerging ireland last summer but both have had very limited opportunities at their provinces this season. Hart is shining in France, recently signing a new contract until 2017. Marmion is shining for Connacht but remains uncapped. Both Marmion and Hart are dual qualified.

Academy
Marcus Walsh[22]
Brian Haugh[21]
Luke McGrath[21]
Dave Shanahan[21]
Caolin Blade[20]
Jack Cullen[19]

Various levels of hype and experience. Walsh and Haugh never featured for Ireland u20 level and expectations for both don't seem to be very high. Shanahan impressed last season and moved from Leinster to Ulster in the summer. McGrath is the most hyped player on the list and much is expected of him. Not much known about Blade and Cullen, Blade appears to be favourite for the Ireland u20 sh spot and Cullen recently started for Ireland u19.

Is Murray 25?!

I thought he was 22 or 23! I suppose thinking about it he has been in the Ireland team for two years now so that makes sense.

There is a bit of a chasm now between Murray and the rest and it is worrying.

Fireball07

bilston wrote: »

Is Murray 25?!

I thought he was 22 or 23! I suppose thinking about it he has been in the Ireland team for two years now so that makes sense.

There is a bit of a chasm now between Murray and the rest and it is worrying.

He's actually 24...25 in April.


He was older than some other players making their breakthrough, and he kinda came out of nowhere in those terms. He had been around, played against Australia, but hadn't been hugely hyped.

PlayerTrader13

bilston wrote: »

Is Murray 25?!

I thought he was 22 or 23! I suppose thinking about it he has been in the Ireland team for two years now so that makes sense.

There is a bit of a chasm now between Murray and the rest and it is worrying.

He will be 25 at the start of the next season yeah.. birthday is april.

PlayerTrader13

Since 2010, 4 players who have played SH for the Ireland u20 team are no longer playing pro rugby

2010-2011: Blane McIlroy, Peter Du Toit, Mark Dolan
2011-2012: Luke McGrath, Kieran Marmion
2012-2013: John Creighton, Luke McGrath, Dave Shanahan

Zzippy

PlayerTrader13 wrote: »

*Ages as of the start of 2014 season

Over 30
Peter Stringer[36] - Bath
Isaac Boss[34]
Eoin Reddan[33]
Tomas O'Leary[30] - London Irish
Gerry Hurley[30]
+
Frank Murphy[30]

Frank Murphy still playing...

PlayerTrader13

Zzippy wrote: »

Frank Murphy still playing...

knew i missed someone. thanks.

PlayerTrader13

9 players produced by the Munster under age system.(1 under the age of 25)
5 players produced by the Leinster under age system.(5 under the age of 25)
3 players produced by the Ulster under age system.(1 under the age of 25)
3 players produced by the Exile system.(2 under the age of 25)
1 player produced by the Connacht under age system.(1 under the age of 25)

Fireball07

Fireball07 wrote: »

He's actually 24...25 in April.


He was older than some other players making their breakthrough, and he kinda came out of nowhere in those terms. He had been around, played against Australia, but hadn't been hugely hyped.

As an example of this, Murray was behind Matt Healy at the JWC and for most of the U-20 6 Nations in 2009.


But, interestingly, when he did start the first 2 games... he was the place-kicker ahead of Madigan, McKinley and Burke.

bilston

PlayerTrader13 wrote: »

Since 2010, 4 players who have played SH for the Ireland u20 team are no longer playing pro rugby

2010-2011: Blane McIlroy, Peter Du Toit, Mark Dolan
2011-2012: Luke McGrath, Kieran Marmion
2012-2013: John Creighton, Luke McGrath, Dave Shanahan

Peter Du Toit played in the combined provinces game at the Aviva and I remember thinking he looked a promising talent, maybe he got an armchair ride that day but I'm surprised he hasn't done more with his career.

grohlisagod

I hope Marmion gets an opportunity in the summer. Looks the best bet to support Murray at the World Cup imo. Boss and Reddan will be seriously pushing on by then.

grohlisagod

Fireball07 wrote: »

But, interestingly, when he did start the first 2 games... he was the place-kicker ahead of Madigan, McKinley and Burke.

It's a real shame that Murray hasn't been encouraged to develop that skill. It would be such a valuable option.

PlayerTrader13

bilston wrote: »

Peter Du Toit played in the combined provinces game at the Aviva and I remember thinking he looked a promising talent, maybe he got an armchair ride that day but I'm surprised he hasn't done more with his career.

went to SA to play but as far as i know that never worked out and his back in Ireland.

Fireball07

grohlisagod wrote: »

It's a real shame that Murray hasn't been encouraged to develop that skill. It would be such a valuable option.

From what I've heard, he has been practicing lately.


He is, in theory, Munster's 3rd-choice 10 aswell. And because we tend to have goalkicking 10s, you can assume he will take that responsibility too if it ever comes to that.

Snickers Man

When God was giving out the talent necessary to make top-class scrum halves, it would appear the Irish were nowhere near the head of the queue. If you look back over history and look for all-time great scrum halves, you find we have not been too prolific in producing them.

Name the best Irish scrum half of the last 40 years? (Roughly the length of time I have been watching rugby) Who have you got? Who are the contenders?

There were a few good players, some very good, few that were in any way consistent and none that I can remember that had the all round game of passing, running, tidying up and decision making that marks a truly class scrum half and that other countries, New Zealand in particular but also Wales and even Scotland seem to be able to produce in much greater numbers than we do.

I regularly update my "best Irish XV from all the players I have seen" going back to 1970. Scrum half is the hardest position to fill because there is no obvious "great" player in all that time. In true anorak mode, here are ALL the players who played at nine for Ireland since 1970 with my memories of them.

Roger Young -1971 Solid all round player who went on a Lions tour in 1968. Played on a good Irish team but don't remember him as being terribly influential.

John Moloney 1972-78 Converted winger (who real anoraks may remember returned to the Irish team in that position in 1980) who had a great running game but was an iffy passer. For much of his career that didn't matter because his fly half was Barry McGann who could only ever pass as far as his thumping great Cork Constitution boot.

Donal Canniffe 1976 Captained Munster to victory against the All Blacks but his two Irish caps were underwhelming

John Robbie 1976-1980 Deemed to have all the talents but never won a match in an Irish jersey. Emigrated to South Africa and is now a well known radio host. The South African George Hook?

Colin Patterson 1978-1980 Diminutive Ulsterman who is my current choice for "greatest I have seen". Dynamic runner, great tidier upper, good kicker. Only had two seasons for Ireland though. Wrecked his knee on Lions tour to South Africa

Robbie McGrath 1981-84 Ollie Campbell's partner in Triple Crown winning team of 1982. Solid player without ever being eye catching.

Tony Doyle 1984 Won two caps during a wooden spoon (Played 4, lost 4) season. Not saying it was ALL his fault..

Michael Bradley 1985-95 Burst on to scene with Triple Crown winning team of 1985. Had his moments but was a terrible ditherer. Regularly dropped in desperation over the subsequent years and just as regularly brought back when the alternatives were found to be even worse.

Gus Aherne 1988-1992 See previous entry.

Alain Rolland 1990-1994 Well at least he became a good ref!

Rob Saunders 1991-1994 Scrum half whose error led to Australia snatching last minute victory in 1991 World Cup quarter final after The Gordon Hamilton Try. I have it on good authority that his captain that day STILL hasn't forgiven him.

Niall Hogan 1995-1997 Couldn't pass water.

David O'Mahony 1995 A Cork Con one-cap wonder. And it was on the first Irish team to lose to Italy.

Christian Saverimutto 1995-96 To paraphrase Micheal O'Muircheartaigh "His father was from Sri Lanka, his granny was from Ireland; and probably not from a place renowned as a stronghold of rugby" Looked good in his first match....against Fiji. Only two more caps, though.

Steve McIvor 1995-97 Tried hard in a lousy team.

Conor McGuinness 1997-99 As previous

Brian O'Meara 1997-2003 Lovely pass but no playmaker.

Conor Scally 1998-99 Blinked and missed him

Tom Tierney 1999-2000 One of those cleared out en masse after 2000 Twickenham humiliation which ushered in most successful era ever. His only Six Nations match.

Peter Stringer 2000-2011 Sublime pass and a memorable line in hand trips. The ideal scrum half for the scintillating backline of the early noughties (O'Driscoll, Hickie, Horgan, D'Arcy, Murphy) but no running game and little in the way of generalship. Never got within an ass's roar of the Lions, for example.

Guy Easterby 2000-2005 Solid presence but slow passer and not much of a running threat. Stringer's understudy.

Kieron Campbell 2005 A few games on tour was all he got.

Isaac Boss 2006- Solid but is he on your team of all-time greats?

Eoghan Reddan 2007- Ditto

Tomas O'Leary 2007- Big tough former hurler. As long as no thinking was required.

Conor Murray 2011-Could yet blossom into a great player.

Paul Marshall 2013-Too early to say.

How many of those would have gotten onto a World XV of their era? Not many.

So with that track record, it's good to see that there is a bit of a pipeline now. Could we yet see an all-time great Irish scrum half?

Fireball07

Well, since I've started watching rugby, it's Stringer easily. A beautiful, quick pass, a wonderful partnership with ROG. Had limitations, although these are sometimes overstated... quality little footballer. And for someone his size, he was aggressive in the tackle.


From what I've seen of older matches... Patterson, as you say, would look to have been the best. Can't have played many games though. Bradley was decent too.



I think Conor Murray has the potential to be our best ever tbf, he has all the attributes.

Bridge93

Is Scally the one that O Driscoll spoke very highly of? Am I right in saying he got a career ending injury and we sadly never saw the best of him?

PlayerTrader13

Bridge93 wrote: »

Is Scally the one that O Driscoll spoke very highly of? Am I right in saying he got a career ending injury and we sadly never saw the best of him?

yeah had to retire because of knee injury at the age of 20 in 1999. Had 4 caps already at that stage.

Apparently similar knee injuries are no longer considered to be career ending.

Leinster13

Colin Patterson - great player. Injury deprived Ireland of a world class 9.

jamiedav2011

Fireball07 wrote: »

Well, since I've started watching rugby, it's Stringer easily. A beautiful, quick pass, a wonderful partnership with ROG. Had limitations, although these are sometimes overstated... quality little footballer. And for someone his size, he was aggressive in the tackle.


From what I've seen of older matches... Patterson, as you say, would look to have been the best. Can't have played many games though. Bradley was decent too.



I think Conor Murray has the potential to be our best ever tbf, he has all the attributes.

Yep, I'd agree witt that, though I'd caveat that Murray, for me, is already a better SH than Stringer ever was.

By the way, I really wish people would stop referring to Paul Marshall as a young gun. He's feckin 28 and won't ever make an international SH.

Fireball07

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

Yep, I'd agree witt that, though I'd caveat that Murray, for me, is already a better SH than Stringer ever was.

I don't know about that...


Maybe. His defence, kicking, breaking threat are all better than Stringer's ever were. And he probably has a higher basic skill level, he can perform flicks, offloads and reverse passes that Stringer probably couldn't. And he probably is better at controlling a game...although Stringer had ROG outside him, who was a master in that regard.


But Stringer just had a serious pass, fast, accurate... he could open teams up, particularly for Ireland, with some top passes. That Ireland team under EOS had some great backs, but both Stringer and O'Gara had serious passing ability, and the likes of BOD, D'Arcy, Dempsey and Murphy were able to hit the line at pace with defences under pressure.

Mahatma Geansai

Fireball07 wrote: »

I don't know about that...


Maybe. His defence, kicking, breaking threat are all better than Stringer's ever were. And he probably has a higher basic skill level, he can perform flicks, offloads and reverse passes that Stringer probably couldn't. And he probably is better at controlling a game...although Stringer had ROG outside him, who was a master in that regard.


But Stringer just had a serious pass, fast, accurate... he could open teams up, particularly for Ireland, with some top passes. That Ireland team under EOS had some great backs, but both Stringer and O'Gara had serious passing ability, and the likes of BOD, D'Arcy, Dempsey and Murphy were able to hit the line at pace with defences under pressure.

Does that not perfectly describe Murray too? Murray's skip passing from the base has lead to tries for Ireland recently. Stringer is a legend, but Murray is already a better player imo. Even looking at the recent NZ game, Murray was the more influential half-back. He's developing into a phenomenally good player and he is already one of the best in the world.

phog

Aside from the normal s/h work, one of Stringer's greatest skills was his ability to manage, drive, guide, mind a maul. His influence at maul time was a joy to behold.

ScissorPaperRock

It's amazing how quickly Murray has gone from being an indecisive, frustrating scrumhalf and a major cause of anger around team selection time to becoming one of the most important players in the country and one of the best in his position at international level.

His varied passing (e.g. offloads and reverse passes) has been important in creating tries for Ireland and Munster, and it was great to see him running 'Sexton loops' during the AIs.

He seems to be growing in confidence and continuously improving and adding strings to his bow, and if that continues then we should be going into the World Cup with one of the best half-back pairings in the competition.

The gulf in experience/class after Murray is scary though. Reddan has been excellent of late, but surely does not have a lot of time left at international level. Hopefully Marmion can step up.

clsmooth

Snickers Man wrote: »

B]Conor McGuinness 1997-99[/B] As previous

Was a very good player and I remember him in particular having a great game v France (maybe in 98?). Had to retire early due to injury.

clsmooth

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby-union-mcguinness-acquires-the-taste-1150445.html

Bridge93

Between Murray and Marmion I think we are well set at scrum half for a good while. Although only young and with minimal opportunity I believe Luke McGrath can push on and challenge the other two further down the road. He like many before him is a victim of the depth in leinsters squad.

Teferi

Snickers Man wrote: »

Peter Stringer 2000-2011 Sublime pass and a memorable line in hand trips. The ideal scrum half for the scintillating backline of the early noughties (O'Driscoll, Hickie, Horgan, D'Arcy, Murphy) but no running game and little in the way of generalship. Never got within an ass's roar of the Lions, for example.

I may not be understanding you correctly but Strings practically bullied his forwards around the park. Always barking orders.

thebaz

barring complete loss of form or injury , Conor Murray is way ahead of anyone on that list , and will rightly be scrum half for some time - right now I'd have him as possibly the best in the world - the others will have to work extremly hard to fulfill ther undoubted potential , to offer any serious challenge

PlayerTrader13

best in the world?

what? he is pretty good SH when on form, far from the best in the world

thebaz

PlayerTrader13 wrote: »

what? he is pretty good SH when on form, far from the best in the world

yeah he is pretty good , head and shoulders above anyone on your list -

PlayerTrader13

thebaz wrote: »

yeah he is pretty good , head and shoulders above anyone on your list -

well he is clearly the best Irish SH.. but that doesn't mean he is the best in the world or even in that conversation

thebaz

he looked miles of the pace ther against the All Blacks , out of his depth too with the lions - the guy is class , and i was no fan until recently - but respect, he has turned himself into a world class SH -

PlayerTrader13

he is a very good SH, but not the best SH in the world.

needs to continue to show consistency in his decision making and speed of pass..

stpaddy99

murray is looking better all the time

PlayerTrader13

stpaddy99 wrote: »

murray is looking better all the time

never said he hasn't looked improved.. but he has been inconsistent and needs to continue to develop and have consistency to be considered the best SH in the world..

let's see how he goes in the 6 nations... before we crown he prematurely.

stpaddy99

hes not the best 9 in the world..the trinations boys have the edge for me...in Europe hes still behind Phillips imo...other than that hes probably top 10 maybe closing in on top 5...but hes improving all the time

jamiedav2011

PlayerTrader13 wrote: »

best in the world?

what? he is pretty good SH when on form, far from the best in the world

In terms of this year, possibly only Smith has had a better international year than him.

He's shown against NZ, for the Lions and particularly against England in the 6N, when I think he really came of age, that he deserves to be in the best in world conversation, a conversation that Stringer never really reached.

I certainly had my issues with him, but despite whether you think he should have this many caps, Murray is turning into an absolutely quality SH and will be a fulcrum of Munster and Ireland for years.

.ak

Was he good against England in the 6N? I can't remember anybody being good against England imo.

He was class against France tho.

jamiedav2011

.ak wrote: »

Was he good against England in the 6N? I can't remember anybody being good against England imo.

He was class against France tho.

Sorry yeah France was it alright.

ScissorPaperRock

jamiedav2011 wrote: »

despite whether you think he should have this many caps

It's an interesting question though - would he be where he is now if he hadn't gotten all those caps? Was it all part of the learning curve that he needed to experience to become a top class player?

DeDoc

He has improved hugely, and is comfortably our best option at 9. But he is nowhere near world class by any reasonable definition (e.g. he'd have a legitimate claim to be in the top 3 in the world). In fact you could make a decent argument for him not being in the top 10 in the world right now. Off the top of my head, I'd prefer Pienaar, du Preez, Smith (NZ), Care, Youngs, Phillips, Genia, Parra, Doussain, Fo'atuili, Machenaud, Paillague

We just don't do really good nines in the country, much the same way as France don't go good tens.

My main issue with him is that he is still too slow at getting to rucks, and in what is probably related, doesn't boss his pack as much as I'd like. The good news is that he's a good athlete, relatively young and those deficiencies are potentially quite fixable.

.ak

ScissorPaperRock wrote: »

It's an interesting question though - would he be where he is now if he hadn't gotten all those caps? Was it all part of the learning curve that he needed to experience to become a top class player?

To be honest, no. Not to dig up old wounds but we could've made the semi's in the RWC if the right half-backs had been picked (and as such, the right game plan).

He also had a dip in form after the RWC, I think his confidence suffered from it, and I think he had more bad games under Kidney than good. He never seemed to want to address his issues (speed, delivery from the ruck) under Kidney, where as Penney seemed to improve his style of play.

phog

.ak wrote: »

To be honest, no. Not to dig up old wounds but we could've made the semi's in the RWC if the right half-backs had been picked (and as such, the right game plan).

He also had a dip in form after the RWC, I think his confidence suffered from it, and I think he had more bad games under Kidney than good. He never seemed to want to address his issues (speed, delivery from the ruck) under Kidney, where as Penney seemed to improve his style of play.

It wasn't all his fault, at times he had to dig the ball out of the rucks for Ireland while with Munster it was generally presented to him. Makes speedy delivery much easier.

bilston

Murray is good and getting better and has probably become the best all round scrum half that I can remember Ireland having in my lifetime in the last season (too young to have seen Patterson). In saying that another season of continued form is probably needed to absolutely prove that as I remember TOL had a fantastic season back in 2009.

Still he isn't better than Aaron Smith, Will Genia, Fourie Du Preez or Morgan Parra, assuming those guys are on form obviously.

That's not criticising Murray by the way, I am really happy with where he is, as I said yesterday the scary thing is he way ahead of any other scrum half in Ireland right now that we are now probably too reliant upon him. Reddan and Boss can do a job but they aren't getting any younger!

.ak

phog wrote: »

It wasn't all his fault, at times he had to dig the ball out of the rucks for Ireland while with Munster it was generally presented to him. Makes speedy delivery much easier.

I don't buy that. I'm talking about just his positioning, i.e; getting to the breakdown or being at the breakdown.

PlayerTrader13

bilston wrote: »

the scary thing is he way ahead of any other scrum half in Ireland right now that we are now probably too reliant upon him. Reddan and Boss can do a job but they aren't getting any younger!

Serious work to be done.. Marmion and Hart need to be fast tracked..

Cooney and McGrath need to be given more opportunities at Leinster.

Not much can be done up at Ulster.. Pienaar and Marshall are locked in.

danthefan

.ak wrote: »

I don't buy that. I'm talking about just his positioning, i.e; getting to the breakdown or being at the breakdown.

Even against NZ, one of his best performances for Ireland, he was missing from a lot of breakdowns.

He's definitely the best option for Ireland, but someone said he's the best in the world - that's totally ridiculous.