Ireland's next No.13

Harry FM

With Brian O'Driscoll retiring from rugby after the upcoming 6 nations, I was wondering who you thought would take his place as Ireland's No.13.

Here are some of the options.

Darren Cave
Luke Fitzgerald
Keith Earls
Tommy Bowe
Jared Payne
Robbie Henshaw

PlayerTrader13

Olding

have to see who replaces BOD at Leinster, it will either be Fitz or Macken..

a lot of people think Olding will be a 13 long term.. if so it could be him..

Earls should stay on the wing.. Bowe too.

Henshaw is getting serious grooming but isn't ready yet..

Eoin Griffen deserves mentioning.

ScissorPaperRock

For me, in the short term it should be Cave. In the long term I'd like to see Olding getting game time there with Ulster though, with the hope that he could do really well in that position.

The problem is that one of those objectives will involve a bit of a trade off in the other.

Payne is another option, but I'm starting to think there are enough quality players queued up for the centre positions at Ulster, and he could offer some excellent competition to Kearney at 15.

Earls - not for me. Too often he doesn't get the ball away to a support runner.
Henshaw - maybe. But he needs to play more there for Connacht.

launish116

Payne

personally id like Payne to stay at full back!

Swiwi.

Hmmm. This feels like groundhog day. It must be at least the 3rd "Ireland's next number 13" thread. I think the only thing that can be stated with any certainty is that Henshaw is in the mix, given his recent selection. Schmidt's squad for the 6N might give a clue...but in saying that Payne is not available until the AIs as far as I am aware.

ScissorPaperRock

What's funny is that we always talk about 13 like there's only one person who will own that shirt. I guess it's because we're used to it being O'Driscoll's whenever fit. I imagine we'll have a bit more competition and alternation there after he retires though.

You'd have to imagine that there will be one 13 from Ulster in the mix (they won't all be able to get quality gametime there), and one from another province. At the moment it does look like Henshaw is being prepared to compete for the shirt, but it'll be interesting to see if Macken or Fitzgerald (if he's tried there for Leinster) make the step up in that position.

LeinsterDub

Earls had 3 years to prove his stuff at 13. He's not an international Centre and he doesn't seem to play that often at centre for Munster

.ak

Quinn Roux. You heard it here first.

Neil3030

ScissorPaperRock wrote: »

What's funny is that we always talk about 13 like there's only one person who will own that shirt. I guess it's because we're used to it being O'Driscoll's whenever fit. I imagine we'll have a bit more competition and alternation there after he retires though.

You'd have to imagine that there will be one 13 from Ulster in the mix (they won't all be able to get quality gametime there), and one from another province. At the moment it does look like Henshaw is being prepared to compete for the shirt, but it'll be interesting to see if Macken or Fitzgerald (if he's tried there for Leinster) make the step up in that position.

I agree with this. We need a Beatles to replace Elvis!

its_phil

Really can't rule out Eoin Griffin lads. Defensively very very good and is very well noted for turnovers out west. Very quick too and matched Medard well for pace on Saturday night. Just trying to get that attacking spark back in his game but it's getting there.

PlayerTrader13

Olding

its_phil wrote: »

Really can't rule out Eoin Griffin lads. Defensively very very good and is very well noted for turnovers out west. Very quick too and matched Medard well for pace on Saturday night. Just trying to get that attacking spark back in his game but it's getting there.

needs to stay healthy.. those hamstrings man

errlloyd

Olding

This thread and "why don't we have a 7s team" are pretty seasonal. Generally we don't learn too much.

I have a feeling Payne is next in line. If it was Cave or any of the other options I think we'd have seen it in the autumn, instead of the patchwork of BOD replacements we got. While henno and Luke will get a run at 13 in the provinces, I'd expect to see Jared wearing it for the world cup.

blackdog1

Backs id like to see

Zebo
Bowe
Payne/cave
Olding/Marshall
Fitzgerald/earls
Sexton
Murray.

That to me would be one hell of an exciting backline. Really want to see zebo at 15. Super rob just doesn't offer the same in attack.

its_phil

PlayerTrader13 wrote: »

needs to stay healthy.. those hamstrings man

Very true. But I think he has turned a corner. After sprinting with Medard I thought that would be it because of those hamstrings, but he got up. Massive relief TBH

Utah_Saint

.ak wrote: »

Quinn Roux. You heard it here first.

Stephen Ferris...

he's not really injured. Just learning the skills to make a top quality Centre and will be unleashed at the 6N's

Neil3030

Payne

Neil3030 wrote: »

I agree with this. We need a Beatles to replace Elvis!

Superb analogy

thomond2006

Olding

Utah_Saint wrote: »

Stephen Ferris...

he's not really injured. Just learning the skills to make a top quality Centre and will be unleashed at the 6N's

He's got the pace to play centre! Sure he can come down to Munster where we can trial him there. :pac:

justsomebloke

Given the abundance of wingers we have I can't see him breaking in there so maybe centre would be a better bet for Cronin

siltirocker

Fitzgerald

The one issue I have with Henshaw at 13 is that. . . Eoin Griffin is better.

As mentioned in a Connacht match thread. Griffin 13, Henshaw 15 is better than Henshaw 13 and anything else.

I have found him to be the best of the 13's behind O'Driscoll save Cave. And he's just turned 23.

[Jackass]

Maybe put up a poll?

For me, it's betweem Payne, Fitgerald or Bowe, in the short term at least. All have played 13 and done very well there.

(longer term maybe Macken, Cave, Olding / Marshall).

Seeing as we will have so many back three players, it would make sense to consider them for the 13 jersey.

Something along the lines of

9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Zebo
12. Marshall
13. Payne
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

With one of Fitzgerald, Earls, McFadden, D. Kearney or Gilroy on the bench.

That's a lot of backline depth, with a lot of young players and more and more coming through every year.

danthefan

I don't think Schmidt is going to pick Earls in the centre, I think his head-down-and-run routine when he has the ball would drive Schmidt nuts. I'd say it'll be Payne when he becomes IQ because he's a hugely intelligent footballer, until then I think it could be Fitz.

Utah_Saint

I hope they don't put Payne at 13. He's a 15 and a a bloody great one at that. Yes, he's quality and can slot in a number of places but we have Cave/Fitzy ready to go in 13. Keep Payne at 15.

Also don't want Bowe at 13. He's a winger who's a little out of form. He needs to get back to his best on the wing.

Ireland are really Spoilt for chocie at the back....its great!

Mahatma Geansai

Although Earls has more experience at 13 than on the wing, lets not play Earls at 13 because he is a winger. Instead we can play Fitzgerald or Payne at centre. Baffling stuff altogether.

Tox56

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Although Earls has more experience at 13 than on the wing, lets not play Earls at 13 because he is a winger. Instead we can play Fitzgerald or Payne at centre. Baffling stuff altogether.

If you can't see how totally different Earls and Payne/Fitzgerald are in their playing style, and how the latter two could potentially suit centre given their skill sets, and how Earls has been tried already and is so much better on the wing, and how Payne played an entire Super Rugby season at 13 to great effect, and how our needs at 13 are so much more pressing than at wing/fullback.. well then I don't know why I bothered writing this post

danthefan

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Although Earls has more experience at 13 than on the wing, lets not play Earls at 13 because he is a winger. Instead we can play Fitzgerald or Payne at centre. Baffling stuff altogether.

No, it's more that he doesn't have the required skillset or footballing intelligence to play in the centre, while Payne quite obviously does. It's not remotely baffling.

.ak

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Although Earls has more experience at 13 than on the wing, lets not play Earls at 13 because he is a winger. Instead we can play Fitzgerald or Payne at centre. Baffling stuff altogether.

Some are better at it than others.

Actually I would be of the thought that Earls is a centre then a winger, but he's just better at the latter.

Fitz and Payne are both probably better in the back 3 than centre, but I still reckon both of them are better 13s than Earls.

Buer

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Although Earls has more experience at 13 than on the wing, lets not play Earls at 13 because he is a winger. Instead we can play Fitzgerald or Payne at centre. Baffling stuff altogether.

James Coughlan and Roger Wilson have played the bulk of their rugby at 8. SOB ans POM hasve played the bulk of theirs at flanker.

If Heaslip is injured, POM or SOB are going to play 8. Still baffled?

bilston

Payne

For me Darren Cave is the best OC in Ireland after BOD so therefore it should be him. Fitzgerald might be an option but only if he gets the Leinster 13 jersey first. If Griffin moves to Munster and nails the shirt there then he becomes an option too.

The rest all play other positions at the moment, in fact Fitzgerald plays another position but I reckon he might well be a 13 full time next season.

But right now for me it's Cave every day of the week.

Teferi

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Although Earls has more experience at 13 than on the wing, lets not play Earls at 13 because he is a winger. Instead we can play Fitzgerald or Payne at centre. Baffling stuff altogether.

You've made this point before.

Many people have responded to you with explanations after you made this point before.

Baffling stuff altogether.

Fireball07

Payne

I'm not sure that Schmidt will be as averse to Earls at 13, as people may think, he played McFadden there quite a bit. Earls is, imo, definitely a better 13 than McFadden a much better distributor in that position.

I could see it being Henshaw seeing as, bar McFadden/Earls/Bowe- who were picked as wingers, he was chosen by Schmidt- Joe obviously rates him. Cave would seem to be the obvious choice though.

Whoever replaces BOD at 13 will have a big chance, if Earls moves back to 13 when Laulala goes will have a chance, whoever is preferred between Henshaw and Griffin, and similarly between Cave/Olding/Payne.



Griffin's recent form at 13 would look to have solidified his place ahead of Henshaw again...think it also makes a move to Munster unlikely, I'd say that was only really going to happen if he was 2nd choice.

Tox56

Fireball07 wrote: »

I'm not sure that Schmidt will be as averse to Earls at 13, as people may think, he played McFadden there quite a bit. Earls is, imo, definitely a better 13 than McFadden a much better distributor in that position.

Necessity really. Although people think Ireland are in crisis without BOD, Ireland still has way, way more options than Leinster did. McFadden was, realistically, the 2nd choice 13 for big games. Gordon D'Arcy played 13 last season. Ireland are in much better shape than that.

Buer

Payne

Buer wrote: »

James Coughlan and Roger Wilson have played the bulk of their rugby at 8. SOB ans POM hasve played the bulk of theirs at flanker.

If Heaslip is injured, POM or SOB are going to play 8. Still baffled?

its very different the big difference between 8 and 7 and wing/fb and center is not comparable its a different skill set where as 8 and 7 would be a relatively similar skill set

Fireball07

Payne

Tox56 wrote: »

Necessity really. Although people think Ireland are in crisis without BOD, Ireland still has way, way more options than Leinster did. McFadden was, realistically, the 2nd choice 13 for big games. Gordon D'Arcy played 13 last season. Ireland are in much better shape than that.

Was he not chosen ahead of EOM for certain fixtures (generally away) when EOM was fit?

Again, this might be just me, but I rated O'Malley on a different level completely to McFadden as a 13.

.ak

Fireball07 wrote: »

Was he not chosen ahead of EOM for certain fixtures (generally away) when EOM was fit?

Again, this might be just me, but I rated O'Malley on a different level completely to McFadden as a 13.

No, the only time Ferg was ahead of EOM at 13 when fit is when there was still question marks over EOM and whether or not he'd break down again. When EOM was 100% he was clearly next in line behind BOD.

Fireball07

Payne

.ak wrote: »

No, the only time Ferg was ahead of EOM at 13 when fit is when there was still question marks over EOM and whether or not he'd break down again. When EOM was 100% he was clearly next in line behind BOD.

My mistake, if true... I could have sworn that he did an alternating 13, like he did at 1, 3, 9. Maybe I just imagined it though.

Tox56

Fireball07 wrote: »

Was he not chosen ahead of EOM for certain fixtures (generally away) when EOM was fit?

Again, this might be just me, but I rated O'Malley on a different level completely to McFadden as a 13.

I think there were a handful of times McF was chosen ahead of EOM, Glasgow and Bath away iirc. Darce and Ferg were a crap pairing though and about as far removed from what Schmidt was looking for in a centre partnership as it is possible to get.

He will not be picking Earls for difficult away games that will probably be an arm wrestle though, and I think for Ireland he will be looking where possible for a footballer and distributor at 13. Earls might start there at some point under Schmidt (still unlikely I think, but there will be a gap between BOD retiring and Payne qualifying/Fitz playing there full time) but even then it will prob be injuries that bring that about

dmcc13

Hensaw - Maybe in a few years but needs to vary lines taken, he always arcs outside
Bowe - Hands are not good enough
Fitzgerald - Leave him be....i honestly think if he is injury free he will be the best wing in Europe
Payne - I know this is a different debate but i strongly detest the residency rule
Macken - Just has not got the x factor...i belive a previous poster mentioned replacing elvis with the beatles
Earls- proven class winger and not a centre

I honestly would go with Zebo....good hands, pace, great feet, a much improved defence and importantly the x-factor.

Fitzgerald, Zebo and the kearney brother would be some cutting edge!

.ak

dmcc13 wrote: »

Hensaw - Maybe in a few years but needs to vary lines taken, he always arcs outside
Bowe - Hands are not good enough
Fitzgerald - Leave him be....i honestly think if he is injury free he will be the best wing in Europe
Payne - I know this is a different debate but i strongly detest the residency rule
Macken - Just has not got the x factor...i belive a previous poster mentioned replacing elvis with the beatles
Earls- proven class winger and not a centre

I honestly would go with Zebo....good hands, pace, great feet, a much improved defence and importantly the x-factor.

Fitzgerald, Zebo and the kearney brother would be some cutting edge!

Zebo at 13? He's like the anti-centre

awec

Cave is the immediate option.

Beyond that, Olding.

We have enough centres, we don't need to be putting wingers there. No to Bowe, Zebo, Fitzgerald and Earls.

ScissorPaperRock

awec wrote: »

Cave is the immediate option.

Beyond that, Olding.

We have enough centres, we don't need to be putting wingers there. No to Bowe, Zebo, Fitzgerald and Earls.

Ulster have ALL the centres!

awec

ScissorPaperRock wrote: »

Ulster have ALL the centres!

welll there's henshaw too :P

But think of the familiarity they'll have with one another!

dropping_bombs

Fitzgerald

awec wrote: »

Cave is the immediate option.

Beyond that, Olding.

Does Olding play at 13 regularly enough currently to be developing an innate feel for the position, rather than having to learn about it at the top level of international rugby? Same goes for Henshaw.

I know Robbie played 13 in school, but I'd imagine that 13 at schoolboy level is a lot different to playing NZ or SA at outside centre!

The Pheasant2

Payne

Cave short term
Olding/Macken long term

He hasn't exactly set the world alight thus far but I can see Macken becoming a serious challenger in the future

Tox56

Eoin Griffin will feature I think, either Connacht will back him over Henshaw (I think it would be wise for him to stay there for now) or he'll move elsewhere and start at 13.

Ardillaun

Payne

The specialists deserve to be at the top. Cave has done his time. I'd put Macken next. Cave would not sparkle like the incumbent and we would have to get used to that.

Fitz is a great player but I'm not sure if he should be first choice. I wonder about his positional sense in defence, more demanding at 13 than on the wing.

dmcc13

I honestly think that Zebo could be the anwer. The current specialist 13's in Ireland aren't good enough to replace BOD in my opinion.

I think Zebo is talented enough to play 13 and cold be his best position.

In what way is Zebo the anti centre? He has much better hands then both Cave and Macken (as well as the other wings mentioned in the debate) his defence has improved massively, he has a superb step and takes great lines.

It is a risk, but i think it could work.

When replacing the class of O'Driscoll you have to think outside the box.

Fireball07

Payne

I agree with some of that about Zebo, he does have some of the necessary skills.


However, he's never played there before and defensively, I don't think he'd be up to it. His defence has improved, but it's one thing defending on the wing and another thing at 13 where you positioning has to be top notch.

awec

dmcc13 wrote: »

I honestly think that Zebo could be the anwer. The current specialist 13's in Ireland aren't good enough to replace BOD in my opinion.

I think Zebo is talented enough to play 13 and cold be his best position.

In what way is Zebo the anti centre? He has much better hands then both Cave and Macken (as well as the other wings mentioned in the debate) his defence has improved massively, he has a superb step and takes great lines.

It is a risk, but i think it could work.

When replacing the class of O'Driscoll you have to think outside the box.

Er, no he doesn't. I'd have Darren Cave at 13 ahead of Zebo every single day of the week.

I don't think Zebo should even be a part of this discussion.

thomond2006

Olding

Zebo did play 13 for Cork Con IIRC. Personally I think his future, for Munster anyway, could be at fullback.

dmcc13

awec wrote: »

Er, no he doesn't. I'd have Darren Cave at 13 ahead of Zebo every single day of the week.

I don't think Zebo should even be a part of this discussion.

Look we will agree to diagree but having watched Cave for the last few seasons his biggest failiing is his inabillity for the killer pass or getting his hands free....it has improved but he is awkward. Sign of a player with good hands is running with the ball in two hands...sounds simple but its very rarely done and is something Zebo/o'driscoll/conrad smith do all the time. If you watch Cave he tucks the ball far too early again that is in my opinion.

awec

dmcc13 wrote: »

Look we will agree to diagree but having watched Cave for the last few seasons his biggest failiing is his inabillity for the killer pass or getting his hands free....it has improved but he is awkward. Sign of a player with good hands is running with the ball in two hands...sounds simple but its very rarely done and is something Zebo/o'driscoll/conrad smith do all the time. If you watch Cave he tucks the ball far too early again that is in my opinion.

Cave has performed some offloads this season that even BOD would be proud of. Reverse passing and everything.

A very underrated player.

I think if Zebo was a genuine 13 option he'd have been tried there by now for Munster. It's not a position they are brimming with talent in.

I believe our specialist centres have more than enough about them that we don't have to try fit square pegs in round holes.