Advice on incident with Dublin Bus

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Tonight I was travelling home from work on the Rock Road South Dublin. I was in my cycle lane, out enough to pass the storm drans safely and other bumps along that part of the road. A bus passed me so close the wind from his vehicle made me lose control of my bike, I slowed right down pretty fast. He then pulled in at the bus stop just up ahead and I followed and had a chat with him. I was in shock at this point and pretty shook up. I was annoyed but didn't let this show initially. Asked him if he seen me, he said he die. I asked him why he passed me like he did and if he knew what would have happened if he hit me. He explained that he was so close to the cars in the left lane that he had no more room... at this point I got bloody angry, it began to show. I began to swear, and for whatever stupid reason I called the gardai through the emergency number (I understand this was really silly of me and not something I do normally, I was in a different mind set altogether). The bus driver tried to drive on, but I was on his right side, so he didn't have anywhere to go. We were there for approximately 2-3 minutes. Not sure if this is obstruction or not. The Gardai asked me if I was injured and if not then to call to the local garda station.

The Gardai at the station began to tell me that there wasn't really anything that he can do as we are both sharing a lane. I was dumbfounded. I asked him where I should go, if I go on the path I will be stopped by his colleagues at some point and might be charged. He then took my details and asked would I go to court. I surely would as he is not able to caution him (no idea why, I reported dangerous driving before and the Garda told me they were cautioned. Whether they did or not is another story.

Am I required to go to court in this case? Will I need to pay for a lawyer? I may need to go back and make a statement which is fine but I was hoping the driver could be cautioned. I was thinking of writing to Dublin bus and making a complaint instead. Any thoughts?

whupdedo

You could go to court and say the wind nearly knocked you over, he didn't hit you and you obstructed a bus with how many people from moving, and as the guards said you were both sharing a lane and the bus driver did see you, I wouldn't like your chances up in front of a judge to be honest,

stecleary

a swift email to Dublin Bus would get you further than the Garda will. Inform them you have been into the local station and just wanted to advise them about the incident. had a similar issue with an An Post van a while ago and got more response from them than the local station

wotdef

If you are on Twitter, ask Dublin Bus who you should contact regarding the driving of one of their employees. Don't go into too much specifics on the public site. I had an issue and found this worked very well.

sopostie

That stretch of the rock road is a killer, the pot holes and drains are massive on it.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

whupdedo wrote: »

You could go to court and say the wind nearly knocked you over, he didn't hit you and you obstructed a bus with how many people from moving, and as the guards said you were both sharing a lane and the bus driver did see you, I wouldn't like your chances up in front of a judge to be honest,

A day off work which I can't afford too. Yea I was thinking the same when I came home and thought about it more. When you are in the moment you don't think straight for sure.

I think I will contact Dublin Bus and take it up with them instead. I have the reg and the bus number. Won't be too difficult for them to find out who the driver is.

That stretch of road sure is horrible. Yesterday morning on the way to work a car turned left without warning to let a motorbike pass on his outside and clipped me. Traffic was at a standstill and he got me with his/her mirror. Complete accident and didn't feel in any danger. Driver probably got a fright. But the bus was wreckless. I really felt like I was at deaths doorstep. I don't have anything against cyclists using paths on these roads to be honest.

cdaly_

Emberly Late Gang wrote: »

Am I required to go to court in this case? Will I need to pay for a lawyer? I may need to go back and make a statement which is fine but I was hoping the driver could be cautioned. I was thinking of writing to Dublin bus and making a complaint instead. Any thoughts?

From what you have said, you made a complaint of dangerous driving and the garda was asking if you would be prepared to go to court as a witness. In this case you don't need a lawyer as you are not answering a charge but just telling the court what you saw/experienced.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

cdaly_ wrote: »

From what you have said, you made a complaint of dangerous driving and the garda was asking if you would be prepared to go to court as a witness. In this case you don't need a lawyer as you are not answering a charge but just telling the court what you saw/experienced.

Ah, ok very good. Thanks for the info

Seaswimmer

Emberly Late Gang wrote: »

Ah, ok very good. Thanks for the info

I am curious where on the Rock Road this happened as on most of that bus lane it is not wide enough for even a car to pass you safely. I use that route daily and from Carroll and Kinsella I position myself just to the right of the broken white line marking the cycle lane, almost in the middle of the bus lane. This ensures nothing can pass you without going well out into the traffic lane.

At Blackrock Park the bus lane widens again and I move over further left..

Is there any chance you were right against the kerb to avoid the worst of the road surface??

monument

OP & others:

If you want you can request stills from the many on-bus cameras, here's how to:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056424723

droidus

Make a complaint to Dublin Bus, in writing or email. Detail exactly what happened and tell them you have contacted the guards. If you want to go through with this and are willing to make a statement, go to your local station and do so. Thats all you need to do for now. The guards SHOULd get the camera footage and this will be used if and when they decide to proceed with the case.

The most worrying thing about this incident is that the driver didn't even seem to realise he's done anything wrong. Its possible that he could be charged with careless and/or dangerous driving.

Though the driver was completely in the wrong you should consider your road position and move right into the road when there is no room for a car or bus to overtake. Better to have a pissed off driver behind you for a few minutes than to be lying dead in the gutter.

hollypink

droidus wrote: »

Its possible that he could be charged with careless and/or dangerous driving.

On Liveline today (I know, don't judge me!), a caller recounted an incident on the Rock Road where a taxi hit a cyclist who was in the cycle lane, knocking the cyclist off her bike. She said the gardai said the driver could not be charged with dangerous driving as he wasn't driving excessively fast so it was a misjudgement, not dangerous driving.

lucky333

I think if there's a problem here then it's because the lanes are not done right. You moved out to aviod parts of your lane. Get on to the council, take them to court. Bus driver did nothing wrong. Your lucky to be alive, count your blessings and be more careful in future

mitosis

Let me see if I have this correct. You were overtaken by a bus. Not touched/hit?

Seaswimmer

Though the driver was completely in the wrong you should consider your road position and move right into the road when there is no room for a car or bus to overtake. Better to have a pissed off driver behind you for a few minutes than to be lying dead in the gutter.



@OP.
I think the advice from Droidus is spot on here. Its been said many times that when you are worried about close overtaking then take the lane and dont give vehicles room to squeeze pass.

Having said that if the location on the Rock Road in your map is the place in question then I have never had any problems there. Its beyond the Booterstown Avenue junction where the bus lane gets bad both in terms of surface and width where you need to be most careful

droidus

If, as a driver of a large vehicle, you deliberately overtake a cyclist at speed and with inches to spare, so that the wind from your passing causes them to wobble or fall, then you have passed way too close, to the point of careless or dangerous driving. The same would apply if it was a pedestrian.

It is the drivers responsibilty to ensure they drive safely. Road markings are a factor, but no-one would EVER use this defence in court as it would indicate a lack of basic understanding of the rules of the road and demonstrate unfitness to be in control of a vehicle.

unichall

hollypink wrote: »

On Liveline today (I know, don't judge me!), a caller recounted an incident on the Rock Road where a taxi hit a cyclist who was in the cycle lane, knocking the cyclist off her bike. She said the gardai said the driver could not be charged with dangerous driving as he wasn't driving excessively fast so it was a misjudgement, not dangerous driving.

To prove dangerous driving in court, which may I add is a very serious offence most likely resulting in a disqualification from driving on conviction, you need to prove that the driver knew what he done was dangerous and even in knowing this continued to drive in such manner, so an elememt of intent to drive dangerously must be proved.

I think most would agree that while this incident as described by the OP was dangerous the driver of the bus never intentionally set out to endanger the OP and it would be unfair if he was disqualified from driving for such and incident which would also I imagine result in him losing his job. That is the degree of seriousness of which dangerous driving is regarded.

At most IMO because there was no contact and no injuries this could possibly be a case of the driver driving without due care or attention because he failed to take due care that there was sufficient room to pass. Thats my reading of it anyway for what its worth

Cookie_Monster

unichall wrote: »

To prove dangerous driving in court, which may I add is a very serious offence most likely resulting in a disqualification from driving on conviction, you need to prove that the driver knew what he done was dangerous and even in knowing this continued to drive in such manner, so an elememt of intent to drive dangerously must be proved.

I think most would agree that while this incident as described by the OP was dangerous the driver of the bus never intentionally set out to endanger the OP and it would be unfair if he was disqualified from driving for such and incident which would also I imagine result in him losing his job. That is the degree of seriousness of which dangerous driving is regarded.

At most IMO because there was no contact and no injuries this could possibly be a case of the driver driving without due care or attention because he failed to take due care that there was sufficient room to pass. Thats my reading of it anyway for what its worth

maybe his driving was so incompetent to be considered dangerous, that certainly what it sounds like in the above case. dangerous driving should not have to be a wilful decision on the part of the driver

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

unichall wrote: »

To prove dangerous driving in court, which may I add is a very serious offence most likely resulting in a disqualification from driving on conviction, you need to prove that the driver knew what he done was dangerous and even in knowing this continued to drive in such manner, so an elememt of intent to drive dangerously must be proved.

I think most would agree that while this incident as described by the OP was dangerous the driver of the bus never intentionally set out to endanger the OP and it would be unfair if he was disqualified from driving for such and incident which would also I imagine result in him losing his job. That is the degree of seriousness of which dangerous driving is regarded.

At most IMO because there was no contact and no injuries this could possibly be a case of the driver driving without due care or attention because he failed to take due care that there was sufficient room to pass. Thats my reading of it anyway for what its worth

Thanks for the reply and making me aware of this. I'll bring this up with the Garda if he ever calls me. I'll give it a week and follow up with him. He definitely didn't set out to hurt me. I wouldn't say that. Nobody needs to lose his job/license either, for sure. Education would be the best outcome. That he understands what he did is wrong and have more awareness of other road users.

lucky333 wrote: »

I think if there's a problem here then it's because the lanes are not done right. You moved out to aviod parts of your lane. Get on to the council, take them to court. Bus driver did nothing wrong. Your lucky to be alive, count your blessings and be more careful in future

I am not sure I understand your post. The driver done nothing wrong yet I am lucky to be alive? Those two statements don't belong together.

Without knowing how careful I was, how can you tell me to be more careful. All of my gear is cycling/reflective gear. My gloves are made with reflective material, my runners are high visibility marathon runners, I am wearing a helmet, high visibility long sleeve jacket, bright rear red flashing lights, front flashing LED light and I am in a cycle lane, cycling at a speed that will allow me to slow down very fast if needs be. Thankfully I could do that in this situation. Can you please explain to me what else I should do because I surely don't want to be another road death statistic.

mitosis wrote: »

Let me see if I have this correct. You were overtaken by a bus. Not touched/hit?

That's correct. I was not touched/hit by the bus. If I was, I wouldn't be here to tell the story. What do you think my chances are if a bus hits me at 50-60Kmph?

Benda

whupdedo wrote: »

You could go to court and say the wind nearly knocked you over, he didn't hit you and you obstructed a bus with how many people from moving, and as the guards said you were both sharing a lane and the bus driver did see you, I wouldn't like your chances up in front of a judge to be honest,

Yeah. Good chance you will get done for wasting garda and court time. At the very least set aside a good few k for the legal costs (yours and theirs)

le petit braquet

Benda wrote: »

Yeah. Good chance you will get done for wasting garda and court time. At the very least set aside a good few k for the legal costs (yours and theirs)

Ignore this. There may be a decision not to continue to prosecute, and while you may have overreacted in dialling the emergency number, this will not result in a decision to prosecute you for wasting Garda time.

Seaswimmer

Emberly Late Gang wrote: »

Without knowing how careful I was, how can you tell me to be more careful. All of my gear is cycling/reflective gear. My gloves are made with reflective material, my runners are high visibility marathon runners, I am wearing a helmet, high visibility long sleeve jacket, bright rear red flashing lights, front flashing LED light and I am in a cycle lane, cycling at a speed that will allow me to slow down very fast if needs be. Thankfully I could do that in this situation. Can you please explain to me what else I should do because I surely don't want to be another road death statistic.

As outlined before "take the lane". If you were further out in the bus lane, the bus (or any other vehicle) cant pass you without moving out into the traffic lane. If you are close to the kerb the temptation is for traffic to "skim" past you because they percieve there is adequate room.

You didnt say where exactly on Rock Road this happened but my advice would be to cycle just on or slightly to the right of the broken white line of the cycle lane thus giving no chance to a following vehicle to overtake dangerously.

techdiver

mitosis wrote: »

Let me see if I have this correct. You were overtaken by a bus. Not touched/hit?

I think you need to review the rules of the road.

The minimum passing distance is 1.5 meters which for all intents and purposes would require the bus to change lane while passing (based on the picture of the road in the OP). This would not have caused the wind trail as described by the OP.

lucky333

The driver done nothing wrong yet your lucky to be alive.
This was to say that the driver done nothing wrong, it was your carelessness that you moved out that you could have been in an accident, so lucky to be alive,. You moved out to avoid imperfections on the road, I'd say you were right on the line, it would take a split second for a cyclist to move out and longer for a bus to move or even see you.
Lessons were learnt here ,,,

You don't want him to lose his job? Education would be the thing, if he was made more aware.. Do you not think you made him aware when you both stopped and had a chat?? Did you not mention what happened and how you felt? Maybe he learned from it already?

quozl

lucky333 wrote: »

it was your carelessness that you moved out that you could have been in an accident, so lucky to be alive,. You moved out to avoid imperfections on the road, I'd say you were right on the line, it would take a split second for a cyclist to move out and longer for a bus to move or even see you.

I don't see any part of the original post that said that the cyclist had just moved out. I read it to mean that they had been out from the edge of the road for some time as they mentioned multiple obstacles in that section of the cycle path.

I am making an assumption based on my reading of it and could be wrong. You are also making an assumption and could also be wrong. We'd need the OP to clarify which it was for us to know.

If you are mistaken in your reading of this would you still hold the same view that the cyclist is to blame?

To be clear, if I am mistaken in my reading of it and the cyclist did swerve out just before the bus arrived then I would consider the cyclist to be largely to blame.

droidus

iamxavier. Please ignore the various numpties who don't have a clue what theyre talking about.

There are many experienced commuters here who have been involved with similar incidents with Dublin Bus. You have nothing to fear from the guards. The cctv from the bus will show what happened and the driver should receive some form of discipline. Please follow up and complain to Dublin Bus, as you may save the life of another cyclist if the he does something similar again.

And dont be afraid to take the lane!

hungry hippo 4

Emberly Late Gang wrote: »

Tonight I was travelling home from work on the Rock Road South Dublin. I was in my cycle lane, out enough to pass the storm drans safely and other bumps along that part of the road. A bus passed me so close the wind from his vehicle made me lose control of my bike, I slowed right down pretty fast. He then pulled in at the bus stop just up ahead and I followed and had a chat with him. I was in shock at this point and pretty shook up. I was annoyed but didn't let this show initially. Asked him if he seen me, he said he die. I asked him why he passed me like he did and if he knew what would have happened if he hit me. He explained that he was so close to the cars in the left lane that he had no more room... at this point I got bloody angry, it began to show. I began to swear, and for whatever stupid reason I called the gardai through the emergency number (I understand this was really silly of me and not something I do normally, I was in a different mind set altogether). The bus driver tried to drive on, but I was on his right side, so he didn't have anywhere to go. We were there for approximately 2-3 minutes. Not sure if this is obstruction or not. The Gardai asked me if I was injured and if not then to call to the local garda station.

The Gardai at the station began to tell me that there wasn't really anything that he can do as we are both sharing a lane. I was dumbfounded. I asked him where I should go, if I go on the path I will be stopped by his colleagues at some point and might be charged. He then took my details and asked would I go to court. I surely would as he is not able to caution him (no idea why, I reported dangerous driving before and the Garda told me they were cautioned. Whether they did or not is another story.

Am I required to go to court in this case? Will I need to pay for a lawyer? I may need to go back and make a statement which is fine but I was hoping the driver could be cautioned. I was thinking of writing to Dublin bus and making a complaint instead. Any thoughts?

Why do you cycle if the lanes provided are so bad? Surely its only a matter of time before something happens. Could you have not slowed down as you approached the storm drain so that you wouldn't have to encroach on the driving lane.

techdiver

lucky333 wrote: »

it was your carelessness that you moved out that you could have been in an accident, so lucky to be alive,. You moved out to avoid imperfections on the road, I'd say you were right on the line, it would take a split second for a cyclist to move out and longer for a bus to move or even see you.?

quozl wrote: »

To be clear, if I am mistaken in my reading of it and the cyclist did swerve out just before the bus arrived then I would consider the cyclist to be largely to blame.

Once again, the bus driver needs to leave 1.5 meters space between himself and the cyclist to comply with safe passing procedure. The cyclist swerving to avoid road obstacles would be the reason for this. There are countless advertisements by the road safety authority on this specific case in hand.

http://vimeo.com/62534997

The 1.5 meter rule is dealt with specifically from 22 seconds onwards.

Chips Lovell

hungry hippo 4 wrote: »

Why do you cycle if the lanes provided are so bad? Surely its only a matter of time before something happens. Could you have not slowed down as you approached the storm drain so that you wouldn't have to encroach on the driving lane.

He's allowed in the driving lane.

droidus

hungry hippo 4 wrote: »

Why do you cycle if the lanes provided are so bad? Surely its only a matter of time before something happens. Could you have not slowed down as you approached the storm drain so that you wouldn't have to encroach on the driving lane.

He has every right to be outside the lane (not that he was). It is the drivers responsibility to ensure he has enough space to overtake safely. It really is that simple.

hungry hippo 4

techdiver wrote: »

Once again, the bus driver needs to leave 1.5 meters space between himself and the cyclist to comply with safe passing procedure. The cyclist swerving to avoid road obstacles would be the reason for this. There are countless advertisements by the road safety authority on this specific case in hand.

http://vimeo.com/62534997

The 1.5 meter rule is dealt with specifically from 22 seconds onwards.

So you would be happy to let the driver lose his job because you insist on using poor roads and making a nuisance of yourself.

monument

hungry hippo 4 wrote: »

Why do you cycle if the lanes provided are so bad?

For most people it's because cycling is still worth it. Could you imagine how good cycling could be for everbody if conditions were better?!

Chips Lovell

hungry hippo 4 wrote: »

So you would be happy to let the driver lose his job because you insist on using poor roads and making a nuisance of yourself.

OK. Now you're trolling. Knock it off.

hungry hippo 4

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

He's allowed in the driving lane.

Lets face it, you should not have any right to be cycling on the road. Small unpredictable and slow. Every single day we see cyclists break the law but you all seem to know every rule ever written.

droidus

hungry hippo 4 wrote: »

So you would be happy to let the driver lose his job because you insist on using poor roads and making a nuisance of yourself.

Eh, yeah. In the real world, people are responsible for their own actions. If a professional driver does something dangerous on the road he needs to be made aware of his mistake and treated appropriately before something worse happens and your repeated childish attempts to blame the victim are not helpful.

hungry hippo 4

monument wrote: »

For most people it's because cycling is still worth it. Could you imagine how good cycling could be for everbody if conditions were better?!

Hang on. I am not trolling. The conditions are crap I agree. Ive been to other European cities and they have fantastic systems in place. But we don't here. So every time you insist on travelling you endanger yourself and others...

droidus

Dublin is a relatively safe city for cycling. It is perfectly possible to travel without incident on a bike as long as motorists and other road users show some basic care and consideration in their driving. The problem is with people who are ignorant of the rights of other road users, or assholes who think cyclists have no right to use the road.

Chips Lovell

Hungry Hippo banned for trolling

techdiver

hungry hippo 4 wrote: »

So you would be happy to let the driver lose his job because you insist on using poor roads and making a nuisance of yourself.

How is using the road correctly "making a nuisance of yourself"? :rolleyes:

You started by claiming it's the cyclists fault. Now that I've proven you wrong with evidence, you jump to emotive nonsense about drivers loosing their jobs and calling cyclists a nuisance for using the road.

What's your next argument?

quozl

techdiver wrote: »

Once again, the bus driver needs to leave 1.5 meters space between himself and the cyclist to comply with safe passing procedure.

The 1.5 meter rule is dealt with specifically from 22 seconds onwards.

There is sadly no such law. There should be but there isn't.

Doctor Bob

hungry hippo 4 wrote: »

Why do you cycle if the lanes provided are so bad?

I was going to cycle, but the cycle lanes were crap, so I thought I'd walk, but the footpaths are too narrow and the pedestrian crossings take too long to go green, so I thought I'd drive, but the roads are full already, so I thought I'd take the bus, but the timetable didn't suit and it cost too much, so I thought I'd fly, but there was nowhere to land my helicopter in town, so I thought I'd swim, but the river didn't go anywhere near my destination, so I decided to stay at home and rant on the internet.

techdiver

quozl wrote: »

There is sadly no such law. There should be but there isn't.

True, but it is the recommended distance by the RSA and surely as with passing out a car, if you do not allow a safe passing distance when passing any other vehicle whether it be car or bike that results in collision your are in the wrong.

nomdeboardie

hungry hippo 4 wrote: »

So you would be happy to let the driver lose his job because you insist on using poor roads and making a nuisance of yourself.

:pac::pac::pac:
Quote of the week?

Personally, I prefer to use good roads, but have found precious few so far, with little interconnection


Gaah, just fed a troll, I'm so ashamed

lucky333

Seriously, you were in your lane, bus was in his lane, cars in the lane next to him, he can't move out of his lane. So he could have slowed down and the wind wouldn't have been such a problem- but as you moved out to avoid bumps on the road then who's to say you didn't move out just as he was passing you?
So if you take it to court anyway, what do you want? You don't want him to lose his job, yeah do you think DB will hold a party for him after the court case? Are you going to stand in court and give your story and say now I don't want anything done here I just want the driver to understand what happened? Well that's grand lets all go home now!!
I do feel for you, it does seem like you got a nasty shock, but I think your blowing this out of proportion. I think you would feel different in a few days when you calm down.

droidus

Its like banging your head against a brick wall.

This is very very simple. Caps to make it as clear as possible.

IF THERE IS NO ROOM TO OVERTAKE SAFELY THAN YOU SHOULD NOT OVERTAKE. THE LANE MARKINGS ARE IRRELEVANT.

If a driver feels he must overtake without leaving resonable space he must slow down to a crawl to allow him time to react if something happens.

Again OP, please ignore the trolls. This happens nearly every time there is a similar discussion.

BeerFear

OP ur the one who said you moved out. He didn't hit you thank god. I don't see what the problem is. Sooner cyclists are taken off the city roads the better. Just take it with a pinch of Salt and stay further in in the future. If brought to court it's hos word against and the bus driver will win. Dublin bus also will not doing anything about it maybe have a chat with him is all. Calling the gaurds was completely unecesary. I'd love to see what exactly happened

droidus

Time to lock thread maybe?

mackeminexile

<snip> Basic fact is that the bus should not have attempted an overtake with no room on the far side and no safe room (1.5 metres minimum) on the inside. That's it. Dangerous driving.

CramCycle

lucky333 wrote: »

You don't want him to lose his job, yeah do you think DB will hold a party for him after the court case?

If he can't drive a bus with due care and attention after training not only for his license but also to the internal standards that DB would have ran him through, then yes, I want him to not be a bus driver anymore.

BeerFear wrote: »

Sooner cyclists are taken off the city roads the better.

MOD VOICE: Dear person, please do not post in this thread again. Any issues please PM me, do not discuss in thread.

CramCycle

MOD VOICE: The OP clearly is investigating the validity and purpose of pushing for criminal charges and asking for advice, there is no indication that a civil case is being considered, so please leave it out of the conversation, joking or otherwise. Please PM to discuss. I have already deleted a few posts in regards to this.

beauf

Seaswimmer wrote: »

As outlined before "take the lane". If you were further out in the bus lane, the bus (or any other vehicle) cant pass you without moving out into the traffic lane. If you are close to the kerb the temptation is for traffic to "skim" past you because they percieve there is adequate room.

You didnt say where exactly on Rock Road this happened but my advice would be to cycle just on or slightly to the right of the broken white line of the cycle lane thus giving no chance to a following vehicle to overtake dangerously.

As other have said take the lane.

Maybe ask Dublin Bus, if they tell their drivers on that route, to be especially aware space is tight and the surface poor on the road. Not to squeeze past cyclists, and be aware why cyclist "take the lane"