Calving tips, Tricks & old wives tales!

Mad4simmental

Thought it mite be an interesting topic.
Basically what do you do if a calf is coming back words? Or upside down ? Where can you learn how to do this (ie turn the calf)?
If a calf can't breath how do you get him started if the old water behind the ears doesn't work?
It mite not seem like a big thing but any ideas mite help save a calf for sum one or you!
Any new gadgets out?
Any new medication out?
Thanks

redzerologhlen

Mad4simmental wrote: »

Thought it mite be an interesting topic.
Basically what do you do if a calf is coming back words? Or upside down ? Where can you learn how to do this (ie turn the calf)?
If a calf can't breath how do you get him started if the old water behind the ears doesn't work?
It mite not seem like a big thing but any ideas mite help save a calf for sum one or you!
Any new gadgets out?
Any new medication out?
Thanks

If a calf is coming backwards keep the jack straight and dont lever the jack downwards because you will be putting all the pressure on the calves rib cage in a way it wasnt designed to stand up to. If there is serious pressure on when pulling a calf normally presented I move the ropes up above the knees, It'll save a broken leg.

Bizzum

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=76346787


Here's a good thread on the subject, maybe it could be bumped if there was interest to add to it?

J.O. Farmer

If the calf is coming backwards you are alright until the navel breaks. Once that happens you have to get them out quick before they suffocate.
If you have a calf coming with one foot and you have to push it back to get the other put a twine on the one you have so you don't lose it trying to get the other. This is something I have learned to do with sheep.

Bizzum

If you think, when you handle a cow, that there are twins in her, it's a good idea to get the ropes on both legs of the one calf. Two calves won't come out at the one time:eek:

Zr105

Make sure the jack is running free and doesn't slip! Had an old jack here that was worn right at the wrong point, was pretty much useless, best place for it the skip, we got a new with the notched sides and its a serious yoke, funniest but was i think we were near finished the second season with it before we used it

Plenty of lube if the pull is hard and move the ropes up to the knees when ya can.

Try and have a handy well lit place thats easy to bring the cow to, where you can bail her up to work on her,

Also something this thread has just reminded me of is to go and get a set of the blue and red ropes, supposed to be far far better than the white ones

A list of the projected dates from scanning close to hand can be helpful to have!

J.O. Farmer

Bizzum wrote: »

If you think, when you handle a cow, that there are twins in her, it's a good idea to get the ropes on both legs of the one calf. Two calves won't come out at the one time:eek:

I had a similar problem with a ewe. Had the first lamb out and he was big but I thought she might have a second. I found 2 legs and a head and pulled but the lamb wouldn't come out so I let go and felt again. I got front leg head front leg front leg. It turns out she was having triplets. No bother once I got the right pair of legs

Rho b

In my experience when a calf is coming and delivered backwards a high proportion of cows will throw out their calf bed after calving.

jimini0

Never stand between the mother and new born calf with your back turned to mother. Learned this the hard way

fredweena

Find the easiest calving bull you can or pretend to have a deadly illness when calving time arrives that means you have to stay in bed.




Warning: Neither will actually work.

TITANIUM.

Crossed crubeans / legs and your having a big boy. Decision time!!!

Rho b

TITANIUM. wrote: »

Crossed crubeans / legs and your having a big boy. Decision time!!!

No offence but big/large crubs do not necessary mean a large calf. Ye need to know the genetics of the bull be it natural or AI.

Always have a bottle of Dopram at hand.

Seaba

Handle the cow and if in doubt, call the Vet

Rho b

Seaba wrote: »

Handle the cow and if in doubt, call the Vet

No offence Seaba but most farmers in my opinion know a hell of a lot more when calving compared to some local vets.

Seaba

Rho b wrote: »

No offence Seaba but most farmers in my opinion know a hell of a lot more when calving compared to some local vets.

None taken!
Ya, all depends on the capabilities of the farmer in question and the local VET.
Knowing and accepting your own capabilities is important.

We just have one neighbour, father and son, who lose 5 calves and the odd cow on average every year out of 25 approx cows due to pure stubborness and pride, thinking they know more than the VET.

J.O. Farmer

I think for most farmers calling the vet is generally for a section or because she's put out the calf bed after the calf.

J.O. Farmer

Seaba wrote: »

None taken!
Ya, all depends on the capabilities of the farmer in question and the local VET.
Knowing and accepting your own capabilities is important.

We just have one neighbour, father and son, who lose 5 calves and the odd cow on average every year out of 25 approx cows due to pure stubborness and pride, thinking they know more than the VET.

That's just stupidity to lose 20% but they are going wrong somewhere if that many get into that sort of bother. My previous post overlapped with Seaba.

jersey101

First cow i ever calved was backwards. Was too young to realize it was the wrong way. Ye can learn as much on your own without being told by an elder

Seaba

A few lads here mentioned turning a cow on her back if the calf is stuck at the hips etc.
Just wondering what the mechanics of that would be?
Ropes on front and back legs? You'd need a bit of man power doing it to stop her from rolling back again/over?
Never tried it but someday might have too - any tips when doing this?

jimmy G M

Seaba wrote: »

A few lads here mentioned turning a cow on her back if the calf is stuck at the hips etc.
Just wondering what the mechanics of that would be?
Ropes on front and back legs? You'd need a bit of man power doing it to stop her from rolling back again/over?
Never tried it but someday might have too - any tips when doing this?

Never did this with a cow but have done it with ewes on a number of occasions and it works. Seems to open things up a bit more.

J.O. Farmer

jimmy G M wrote: »

Never did this with a cow but have done it with ewes on a number of occasions and it works. Seems to open things up a bit more.

With ewes it helps stop them from pressing if you have to try and get the lamb lined up or put back a lamb bed or prolapse.

TITANIUM.

Rho b wrote: »

No offence but big/large crubs do not necessary mean a large calf. Ye need to know the genetics of the bull be it natural or AI.

Always have a bottle of Dopram at hand.

Read my initial post my friend. I never mentioned large crubeans. If there crossed however it's a sign of a big calf. Just something handy tp look out for.

TITANIUM.

Seaba wrote: »

A few lads here mentioned turning a cow on her back if the calf is stuck at the hips etc.
Just wondering what the mechanics of that would be?
Ropes on front and back legs? You'd need a bit of man power doing it to stop her from rolling back again/over?
Never tried it but someday might have too - any tips when doing this?

Ya I've done it in a pinch.
You need at least two lads really.
Keep one man on the rope and turn her right over. As shr goes over the lad on the rope gives it the beans. The hips disengage and out he pops.

freedominacup

Rho b wrote: »

No offence Seaba but most farmers in my opinion know a hell of a lot more when calving compared to some local vets.

You must have some crap vets in your locality so because at best we are mid-wives, the vets are the consultants, no vet is ever called to a handy calving, their only experience is of difficult ones. The only question I'd have about a vet is their method/cleanliness if a section is needed. We had to get a vet from a different practice here twice for sections and his method was excellent. Maybe it was sheer luck, I doubt it, but the 2 cows he did went back in calf our usual vet wouldn't be hitting 50% over the years.

I shudder at some of the horror stories recounted here on various calving threads, too many guys have far too much experience of difficult calvings IMO. The jack should be something used only sparingly, 5 minutes with a jack is the equivalent of two big hardy bucks pulling on ropes for an hour, remember that the next time you take it out.

reilig

The one thing that wasn't mentioned so far is time! A lot of people go Gung Ho with the ropes and jack as soon as a cow starts to calve. This is wrong and risks the life of the calf. A cow should be given several hours after she appears sick. It is perfectly safe to allow the cow to push for up to 3 hours after the first waters break - if the water shows no sign of blood. Even when the tips of the feet appear, it's better all round if you leave the cow to do the work for a long time to see if she can push the calf out herself. The calf is quite safe once he is attached to the cord.

If you look at your stock bull or at the ai bulls that you use and examine their ICBF calving figures, on average 9 out of every 10 calvings in this country should be unassisted. If they are not then you need to examine your methods and practices.

What's your figure?

jersey101

If a cow hasnt cleaned a day after calving give her a bottle of calcium. Usually sorts out any of it here

Mad4simmental

redzerologhlen wrote: »

If a calf is coming backwards keep the jack straight and dont lever the jack downwards because you will be putting all the pressure on the calves rib cage in a way it wasnt designed to stand up to. If there is serious pressure on when pulling a calf normally presented I move the ropes up above the knees, It'll save a broken leg.

Interesting about moving the ropes up to the knees, would you think the navel would brake quicker with the calf coming backwards? Would you be better to try turn the calf or keep her lit the way she is coming ?

Mad4simmental

Bizzum wrote: »

If you think, when you handle a cow, that there are twins in her, it's a good idea to get the ropes on both legs of the one calf. Two calves won't come out at the one time:eek:

Good tip thanks !

Mad4simmental

Zr105 wrote: »

Make sure the jack is running free and doesn't slip! Had an old jack here that was worn right at the wrong point, was pretty much useless, best place for it the skip, we got a new with the notched sides and its a serious yoke, funniest but was i think we were near finished the second season with it before we used it

Plenty of lube if the pull is hard and move the ropes up to the knees when ya can.

Try and have a handy well lit place thats easy to bring the cow to, where you can bail her up to work on her,

Also something this thread has just reminded me of is to go and get a set of the blue and red ropes, supposed to be far far better than the white ones

A list of the projected dates from scanning close to hand can be helpful to have!

I have herd of the blue red ropes being better. Did you ever see or use the calving socks? Basically what the name is a white net type of sock that goes up to the knee and tightens as you pull on it. I've often wondered are they any good.

Mad4simmental

TITANIUM. wrote: »

Crossed crubeans / legs and your having a big boy. Decision time!!!

Notting worse, I mean big calf can be good, but when you have that vet or no vet moment can be scary, especially if you are by your own!!

Zr105

Mad4simmental wrote: »

I have herd of the blue red ropes being better. Did you ever see or use the calving socks? Basically what the name is a white net type of sock that goes up to the knee and tightens as you pull on it. I've often wondered are they any good.

Cant say i have, i assume its something along the lines of the yoke some esb crews have to slip over the end of the wire when pulling it through ducting?

The biggest thing i see with the blue an red is youl never question yourself as to which rope is which side if you let the slip.


But i have to agree with relig above, no need to jump in with the jack! Give her time, if its not coming after a while handle her, it could just be a leg turned back and needs to be straightened then give her more time but keep an eye to make sure she's trying

Mad4simmental

Rho b wrote: »

No offence but big/large crubs do not necessary mean a large calf. Ye need to know the genetics of the bull be it natural or AI.

Always have a bottle of Dopram at hand.

Say you have a calf that has a hart beat but is not breathing atall after trying to clear airways and splash water on them ect is Dopram any good to give him? Or is it more for a calf that is breathing but having a hard time trying to? Thanks

Mad4simmental

reilig wrote: »

The one thing that wasn't mentioned so far is time! A lot of people go Gung Ho with the ropes and jack as soon as a cow starts to calve. This is wrong and risks the life of the calf. A cow should be given several hours after she appears sick. It is perfectly safe to allow the cow to push for up to 3 hours after the first waters break - if the water shows no sign of blood. Even when the tips of the feet appear, it's better all round if you leave the cow to do the work for a long time to see if she can push the calf out herself. The calf is quite safe once he is attached to the cord.

If you look at your stock bull or at the ai bulls that you use and examine their ICBF calving figures, on average 9 out of every 10 calvings in this country should be unassisted. If they are not then you need to examine your methods and practices.

What's your figure?

Fully agree, you shouldn't have that much hardship all the time, people say so & so hade very bad luck this year, but my view is you make your own luck. It dosnt take that much time to make sure your bull or ai straws should be easy calving. At the end of the day everyone everyone looses one now and agen it's just the way it is, but if people don't do there homework and at least try to put the odds in there favour in my opinion that's just madness.

TITANIUM.

freedominacup wrote: »

You must have some crap vets in your locality so because at best we are mid-wives, the vets are the consultants, no vet is ever called to a handy calving, their only experience is of difficult ones. The only question I'd have about a vet is their method/cleanliness if a section is needed. We had to get a vet from a different practice here twice for sections and his method was excellent. Maybe it was sheer luck, I doubt it, but the 2 cows he did went back in calf our usual vet wouldn't be hitting 50% over the years.

I shudder at some of the horror stories recounted here on various calving threads, too many guys have far too much experience of difficult calvings IMO. The jack should be something used only sparingly, 5 minutes with a jack is the equivalent of two big hardy bucks pulling on ropes for an hour, remember that the next time you take it out.

Apparently a jack gives the same pulling power a seven strong men. Quare pressure.

Mad4simmental

jersey101 wrote: »

First cow i ever calved was backwards. Was too young to realize it was the wrong way. Ye can learn as much on your own without being told by an elder

Very true!

Mad4simmental

jersey101 wrote: »

If a cow hasnt cleaned a day after calving give her a bottle of calcium. Usually sorts out any of it here

Thanks never knew that! I know it happens now and agen but is there a reason for this happening? Say you had a cow that done it two yoars in a row would there be sum problem or defincey with her?

TITANIUM.

reilig wrote: »

If you look at your stock bull or at the ai bulls that you use and examine their ICBF calving figures, on average 9 out of every 10 calvings in this country should be unassisted. If they are not then you need to examine your methods and practices.

What's your figure?

I think that cow management has a massive bearing on things.
Cows should be on a restricted diet 6weeks out. Tightening as the time approaches. Not enough lads do it.

jersey101

Mad4simmental wrote: »

Thanks never knew that! I know it happens now and agen but is there a reason for this happening? Say you had a cow that done it two yoars in a row would there be sum problem or defincey with her?

irs more than likely just a touch of milk fever, a cow doesnt have to be flat out on her side to have it. Should do a blood test on a few cows to see if they are lacking in anything. Would be a good idea

Nekarsulm

I would say, that if you have one of those old jacks comprising of a round bar with a knurled surface (like a Volkswagen Beetle jack, if anyone here is old enough to remember), then the best thing to do is drive across it with the tractor, and buy one with the machined "teeth" up each side of a square alloy shaft.

onyerbikepat

reilig wrote: »

The one thing that wasn't mentioned so far is time! A lot of people go Gung Ho with the ropes and jack as soon as a cow starts to calve. This is wrong and risks the life of the calf. A cow should be given several hours after she appears sick.

Good advice. I generally go with a time from when the blister or waterbag bursts. I allow 2 hours for a mature cow and 3 hours for a heifer, before I go near them. That's if everything seems fine, with legs coming out etc.
I find the calving camera great as I can just watch her from afar and just keep an eye on the time then.

Rho b

Mad4simmental wrote: »

Say you have a calf that has a hart beat but is not breathing atall after trying to clear airways and splash water on them ect is Dopram any good to give him? Or is it more for a calf that is breathing but having a hard time trying to? Thanks

The only times we have ever had to use it is when a calf is still flat out after trying to get it going.

Bizzum

In relation to giving a cow time when calving, I'd be happy enough to give a cow plenty of time as long as there's some progress. If there's no progress I like to have look and see why.

freedominacup

Rho b wrote: »

No offence but big/large crubs do not necessary mean a large calf. Ye need to know the genetics of the bull be it natural or AI.

Always have a bottle of Dopram at hand.

Is the Dopram some sort of a dopamine product?

jersey101

Does anyone use that stuff in a bottle that you drench a cow with if she gas milk fever?? There was a good few advertisements for a few yrs ago but nothing since

Rho b

freedominacup wrote: »

Is the Dopram some sort of a dopamine product?

Iam not sure what is in it. Get it from the vet. It stimulates their breathing reflex.

Muckit

I came across these newspaper clippings from a while back.

May be of some help to someone

Muckit

...and here's the second page

49801

An old ketchup bottle or washing liquid bottle full of water is good to have on hand when jacking calves to squirt in their ears. Much handier then messing with a bucket of water.

J.O. Farmer

Thanks Muckit some good advice there.

C0N0R

Mad4simmental wrote: »

Thanks never knew that! I know it happens now and agen but is there a reason for this happening? Say you had a cow that done it two yoars in a row would there be sum problem or defincey with her?

Off the top of my head I can't remember but a lot of retained membranes can be down to a deficiency in selenium/B12. We would give all cows a shot a few weeks before calving and seems to help.

jersey101

49801 wrote: »

An old ketchup bottle or washing liquid bottle full of water is good to have on hand when jacking calves to squirt in their ears. Much handier then messing with a bucket of water.

very good idea that is. I had to run the length of 20ac field getting a bucket of water in the autumn for a calf