Hurling Championship Structure

blue note

So we've had a review of the football championship structure, but what do people think of the Hurling structure?

I think it still suffers from the same problem that it has always struggled with - Leinster is comparatively weak and it gives an unfair advantage to the Leinster teams. Galway for example, beat Laois and got an AI quarter final place from it. The problem is that it's not an anomaly. There are only 3 strong teams in Leinster (I'll give Galway the benefit of the doubt for the sake of this argument) so one team every year gets at worst, a potential banana skin in Offaly or Wexford as the only obstacle to get a place in the quarter finals. Compare that to Munster where all 5 teams are strong.

Of course, the problem is that no-one would want to get rid of the Munster Championship. While it would be a shame to see it go, changing to 4 groups (sort of a champions league style that is usually mentioned) could simply be a better structure. There's no reason to think that matches deciding who gets knocked out and who tops groups wouldn't be as hard fought as Provincial Championship matches. And it would be great to mix up who teams play every year. Waterford haven't played Dublin since 1948. That's crazy.

A more contentious suggestion, that would have zero chance of passing, would be to give different rewards to teams coming from Munster and Leinster. Leave the Munster rewards as they are - a semi final and a quarter final place. But put the Leinster champions into the quarter final and the runners up into the qualifiers. At the end of the day the two Munster teams between them will have won 4 difficult games when the Leinster teams have just won 2. Why should they get the same rewards?

iDave

blue note wrote: »

A more contentious suggestion, that would have zero chance of passing, would be to give different rewards to teams coming from Munster and Leinster. Leave the Munster rewards as they are - a semi final and a quarter final place. But put the Leinster champions into the quarter final and the runners up into the qualifiers. At the end of the day the two Munster teams between them will have won 4 difficult games when the Leinster teams have just won 2. Why should they get the same rewards?

Ok and in football we can reverse it and put Kerry or Cork into the football QF instead of the semi. Deal.

blue note

iDave wrote: »

Ok and in football we can reverse it and put Kerry or Cork into the football QF instead of the semi. Deal.

There's already a thread to discuss the football proposals.

Coillte_Bhoy

As i posted in the football proposal thread the provincial councils are too powerful so there isnt a hope in hell of any new structures that arent based around a provincial c'ship of some sort

iDave

blue note wrote: »

There's already a thread to discuss the football proposals.

Oh no we can discuss it here. Your beloved Munster gets set up on a plinth in hurling and you want to screw over the Leinster champions (KK, Dub, Gal most likely) who will be an All Ireland contender in their own right but don't think Munsters football weakness' should be punished.

Edit
Dublin beat KK and Galway to win Leinster this year. Yep a total walk in the park

blue note

iDave wrote: »

Oh no we can discuss it here. Your beloved Munster gets set up on a plinth in hurling and you want to screw over the Leinster champions (KK, Dub, Gal most likely) who will be an All Ireland contender in their own right but don't think Munsters football weakness' should be punished.

I would like to see 4 provinces of 8 in the football championship and as I say, there's already a thread for that.

And I know people would shout anyone down who tries to argue for different rewards for the two provinces as anti-Leinster and such nonsense, but there's a very sensible argument for it. Winning / finishing runners up in the two provinces is simply not the same thing.

deadybai

A champions league style structure has to be the way forward. They could run the provincial championships at a different time then the all Ireland championship or just get rid of it. I know it would be a shame to get rid of the provincials but if we want to move on this has to be done. The teams for the all Ireland championship could be chosen on performances from league finishes. As for the 3rd and 4th placed teams in the groups, they could be place in the christy ring cup (3rd) or the Nicky Rackard cup (4th).

There has to be something done. Its a ridiculous structure the way it is.

blue note

iDave wrote: »

Edit
Dublin beat KK and Galway to win Leinster this year. Yep a total walk in the park

And Galway beat Laois for a quarter final spot.

Compare that to Cork beating the soon to be All Ireland champions. And Limerick beating a Tipp team that had contested 3 of the last 4 All Irelands and a Cork team that beat Kilkenny, Dublin and Clare in the season.

There just aren't as many strong teams in Leinster, there's no way to argue that there is.

blue note

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

As i posted in the football proposal thread the provincial councils are too powerful so there isnt a hope in hell of any new structures that arent based around a provincial c'ship of some sort

This is why it's only a dream for hurling fans. The fear that revenue overall would go down and the provincial councils fear of not getting the money directly.

iDave

blue note wrote: »

And Galway beat Laois for a quarter final spot.

Compare that to Cork beating the soon to be All Ireland champions. And Limerick beating a Tipp team that had contested 3 of the last 4 All Irelands and a Cork team that beat Kilkenny, Dublin and Clare in the season.

There just aren't as many strong teams in Leinster, there's no way to argue that there is.

The Leinster champions consistently are All Ireland contenders/winners. I don't need to tell you about Kilkennys progress after winning Leinster. Galway after winning Leinster beat what Munster put in front of them in the Semi and went to a replay in the final losing to the Leinster runner-up that season. This year Dublin were good for a final appearance only for an unlucky goal late on.
Maybe rejig the Leinster championship such as no bye to the semi for the defending champion but ever year the Leinster champion shows itself worthy of an automatic semi place.

Coillte_Bhoy

blue note wrote: »

This is why it's only a dream for hurling fans. The fear that revenue overall would go down and the provincial councils fear of not getting the money directly.

Absolutely, another reason nothing much will change

blue note

iDave wrote: »

The Leinster champions consistently are All Ireland contenders/winners. I don't need to tell you about Kilkennys progress after winning Leinster. Galway after winning Leinster beat what Munster put in front of them in the Semi and went to a replay in the final losing to the Leinster runner-up that season. This year Dublin were good for a final appearance only for an unlucky goal late on.
Maybe rejig the Leinster championship such as no bye to the semi for the defending champion but ever year the Leinster champion shows itself worthy of an automatic semi place.

You mean Kilkenny have been consistent All Ireland contenders / winners. In the last 7 AI finals all 5 Munster teams have made an appearance (not been "good for a final appearance only for an unlucky goal late on"). Go back a year further and 3 of the 5 teams have won an All Ireland.

At the end of the day, there's 3 strong teams in the province. Dublin have to beat Wexford for a place in the AI quarter finals next year. That's not right and we shouldn't keep it that way just so that we don't offend people about the Leinster Championship.

Realt Dearg Sec

Ok, how about if you beat Kilkenny and Galway to win Leinster you get a semi, but if you beat laois you don't. Then by the same token, I'd you beat someone good like Clare or cork in Munster you earn a quarter for making the final but if you only beat a soft, handy, flaky inconsistent team that ranks itself as a contender but isn't, like Waterford, then your Munster final appearance is worth less than the Leinster win that involved being two good teams? I mean, that would seem consistent with your logic.

blue note

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Absolutely, another reason nothing much will change

It might not. You could have home and away games in the group stages which boost attendances and 4 quarter finals instead of the current 2.

iDave

blue note wrote: »

Dublin have to beat Wexford for a place in the AI quarter finals next year. .

The same Wexford who took them to a replay this year?

blue note

iDave wrote: »

The same Wexford who took them to a replay this year?

That wasn't because Wexford were particularly strong.

iDave

blue note wrote: »

That wasn't because Wexford were particularly strong.

So what your saying is even weak teams like Wexford still have a chance of causing an upset against the eventual champions. Jaze this Leinster SHC seems fecking great.

deadybai

this isnt a thread of which province is stronger. Im from Leinster myself and its clearly obvious that the Munster championship is more competitive, theres no point in arguing about it.

anyways, a champions league style structure is the way to go. Anyone else have any ideas?

blue note

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Ok, how about if you beat Kilkenny and Galway to win Leinster you get a semi, but if you beat laois you don't. Then by the same token, I'd you beat someone good like Clare or cork in Munster you earn a quarter for making the final but if you only beat a soft, handy, flaky inconsistent team that ranks itself as a contender but isn't, like Waterford, then your Munster final appearance is worth less than the Leinster win that involved being two good teams? I mean, that would seem consistent with your logic.

You can pretend all you like that there's a weak team in Munster, but there isn't. There are 3 strong teams in Leinster and that's giving Galway the benefit of the doubt who were terrible this year and Dublin the benefit of the doubt who were terrible the year before. There are 5 in Munster.

The luck of the draw will play a part in deciding how easy / hard your path is each year. But the draw should be fair and currently it's not.

iDave

blue note wrote: »

You can pretend all you like that there's a weak team in Munster, but there isn't. There are 3 strong teams in Leinster and that's giving Galway the benefit of the doubt who were terrible this year and Dublin the benefit of the doubt who were terrible the year before. There are 5 in Munster.

The luck of the draw will play a part in deciding how easy / hard your path is each year. But the draw should be fair and currently it's not.

Limerick went over decade without winning Munster, haven't one AI since 73. Clare went....what was it 80 years without an AI. Prior to 95 when was their last Munster? Waterford haven't won an AI since the TV was invented. That just leaves Cork and Tipp who are consisntent. Oh yes Tipp, how many AIs compared to KK in the last 20 years? Cork currently going through a barren phase of their own. Can we dispense with this Munster hurling mythology please.

Prop Joe

Play Leinster & Munster as normal - 2 Winners progress to AI QF (Limerick & Dublin)

Then as qualifiers 6 groups of 3 (open draw) play each other once top team progress to QF (If provincial winner progress's they get bye to AI Semi)


Group 1

London
Clare
Dublin

Group 2

Carlow
Cork
Kilkenny

Group 3

W'Meath
Waterford
Christy Ring Winners

Group 4

Laois
Tipp
Christy Ring Runners Up

Group 5

Antrim
Limerick
Offaly

Group 6

Down (Last years CR Winners)
Galway
Wexford


QF's

Limerick v Limerick - Bye
Dublin v Waterford
Cork v Galway
Clare v Tipp


Semi's

Limerick v Galway
Clare v Dublin

blue note

iDave wrote: »

Limerick went over decade without winning Munster, haven't one AI since 73. Clare went....what was it 80 years without an AI. Prior to 95 when was their last Munster? Waterford haven't won an AI since the TV was invented. That just leaves Cork and Tipp who are consisntent. Oh yes Tipp, how many AIs compared to KK in the last 20 years? Cork currently going through a barren phase of their own. Can we dispense with this Munster hurling mythology please.

What's your point? They're all strong now. Dublin haven't won an AI since 1938. That won't matter in 2014.

iDave

blue note wrote: »

What's your point? They're all strong now. Dublin haven't won an AI since 1938. That won't matter in 2014.

The point I'm making at any given time there never more 2-3 or genuine top class teams in either province. Now I'll kindly offer you any assistance required in dismounting from your high horse.

blue note

Prop Joe wrote: »

Play Leinster & Munster as normal - 2 Winners progress to AI QF (Limerick & Dublin)

Then as qualifiers 6 groups of 3 (open draw) play each other once top team progress to QF (If provincial winner progress's they get bye to AI Semi)

I'd abandon the provincials altogether. 4 groups. Ideally there's be a home and away, but there are probably too many teams for that. Winners into the quarter finals and all the 2nd and 3rd place teams into an open draw to have one more game to get into the quarters.

It would also be a much more structured championship. It would be easier to organise club championships around.

Quixoticelixer

Present structure is straightforward and works very well. No need to change it.

Coillte_Bhoy

blue note wrote: »

It might not. You could have home and away games in the group stages which boost attendances and 4 quarter finals instead of the current 2.

Oh well if you go down that route of having loads more games then yeah it may balance out

Quixoticelixer

blue note wrote: »

I'd abandon the provincials altogether. 4 groups. Ideally there's be a home and away, but there are probably too many teams for that. Winners into the quarter finals and all the 2nd and 3rd place teams into an open draw to have one more game to get into the quarters.

It would also be a much more structured championship. It would be easier to organise club championships around.

So groups of 4 with 3 teams qualifying from each group? Group stages would be very boring, top two would most likely destroy the bottom two in all groups, too many games with nothing really at stake. Home and away? Even worse. Bloated, too many games. Teams playing each other for the sake of it. At least with the present structure there is something at stake in every game.

It would not be easier to organise club championships around. More games for county teams will only ever decrease the already small window available to play club championships.

Pointless to suggest abandoning the provincial championships, that is never going to happen.

MUFC91CS

Quixoticelixer wrote: »

Present structure is straightforward and works very well. No need to change it.

Agreed

randd1

The best structure should be one of the championship structures the Hurling Review Committee came up with a few years back to counteract the lack of games.

Munster
5 team round robin league, two home/two away game.
Top two teams into Munster final, and AIQF's
Other three sides into QF playoffs.

Leinster
10 teams, two groups of 5, round robin league, two home/two away game.
Top two of each group into SF's, with winners of both into Leinster final and AIQF. Losers into QF playoffs.
Third of each group into QF playoffs.
Fourth from each group play for a place in the QF playoffs.

It would have worked out that the automatic places for the QF's would be:
Munster champions, Leinster Champions, Munster runners up, Leinster runners up.

The playoffs for the QF's would have been:
Pot 1 - 3rd placed in Munster, 4th placed in Munster, Leinster SF1 losers, Leinster SF2 losers.
Pot 2 - 5th placed in Munster, 3rd of Leinster Group A, 3rd of Leinster Group B, winner of Leinster playoff.

The winners of the QF playoffs would be into the QF's, with the QF's being open draw (provincial champions would not have faced their provincial finalists, or the other provincial champions).


It was a great proposal, it was based on the premise of the league staying as a 6 group league, but the year would have had gaps for club games.

Of course the proposal was immediately shot down.

keeponhurling

They introduced group stages a few years back and there was no interest from the public so it was scrapped

PTH2009

next year some of the big boys will be out of the championship on june 28th

We could see something like Waterford vs Galway in the first round of the qulifers.

deadybai

randd1 wrote: »

The best structure should be one of the championship structures the Hurling Review Committee came up with a few years back to counteract the lack of games.

Munster
5 team round robin league, two home/two away game.
Top two teams into Munster final, and AIQF's
Other three sides into QF playoffs.

Leinster
10 teams, two groups of 5, round robin league, two home/two away game.
Top two of each group into SF's, with winners of both into Leinster final and AIQF. Losers into QF playoffs.
Third of each group into QF playoffs.
Fourth from each group play for a place in the QF playoffs.

It would have worked out that the automatic places for the QF's would be:
Munster champions, Leinster Champions, Munster runners up, Leinster runners up.

The playoffs for the QF's would have been:
Pot 1 - 3rd placed in Munster, 4th placed in Munster, Leinster SF1 losers, Leinster SF2 losers.
Pot 2 - 5th placed in Munster, 3rd of Leinster Group A, 3rd of Leinster Group B, winner of Leinster playoff.

The winners of the QF playoffs would be into the QF's, with the QF's being open draw (provincial champions would not have faced their provincial finalists, or the other provincial champions).


It was a great proposal, it was based on the premise of the league staying as a 6 group league, but the year would have had gaps for club games.

Of course the proposal was immediately shot down.

yeah thats definitely a good proposal. Is there anything even being considered for hurling at the moment?

Quixoticelixer

deadybai wrote: »

yeah thats definitely a good proposal. Is there anything even being considered for hurling at the moment?

Nope. Apart from the championship being scaled back down to 12 teams there will be no change in the present double knockout format as it works very well.

randd1

I stuck this up on another forum, just wondering what people think:

I know these threads have been done to death every year, and its probably a bit boring at this stage to rehash this thing again, but bear with me.

Watching the Cork/Wexford game tonight, and seeing the scores from the other games, I can't help but get the feeling that unless some counties get more games in the summer, they won't improve to the point where they'll be competitive. Wexford and Laois are the prime examples, both have improved a bit, and now both are gone for another year. Fair enough, that's knockout, but is it stunting hurling overall? I think it is.

And I think the answer is a small change to the Championship structure, and a separate Shield competition for those side knocked out early, guaranteeing at least one more game every summer. The championship structure would be changed to remove the second round of qualifiers, and add two more AI quarter finals spots including the Provincial Champions.

If were to apply it for next year, it would look something like this:

Qualifier Group - 4 Teams - Round Robin. Top two go through to Provincial Championships.

After the Qualifier group, the Provincial Championships will either have 5/6 teams in Munster and 6/7 teams in Leinster (depending on whether Kerry get through or not).

There will be four Provincial QF losers combined from Munster and Leinster either way after the first round of matches. These would make up the first Qualifier group.
The four losers of the Provincial SF's would make up the second qualifier group.

Open draw, with teams from group one playing teams from group 2, with teams playing who have played each other kept apart. The four winners go through to the quarter finals.

The Provincial finalists would go into the quarter finals as well. However, as a reward for winning their province, the Provincial Champions get a home QF, as there should be some other substantial reward besides a provincial title if entering into AI Championship at the same stage as everyone else.

AI quarter finals are open draw regardless of having faced each other before, except for Provincial Champions can't face the team they beat in their provincial final (though the Leinster Champions could face the Munster runners up, and vice versa).

The Shield Competition would then start after the AI quarter finals are completed. The four teams knocked out in the Qualifiers would then face the four losing AI quarter finalists. Straight knockout over three weeks, games finish on the day (one v one penalties come in handy there).

Think that would be a fair and more open championship all round, and a chance for the teams knocked out of the Championship to pick up silverware and have more games to develop.

ArmaniJeanss

randd1 wrote: »

I stuck this up on another forum, just wondering what people think:

I don't think there is any appetite among fans/players/management/broadcasters for any sort of shield competition. So whilst it'd theoretically give everyone a third game of the summer I'd expect it to be diminished squads in empty stadia with no sense of occasion or media interest, so not really a third game in any true sense.

Your small changes to the main structure are fine enough I suppose, no worse really than what we have at the moment. Though the GAA wouldnt approve of the idea of guaranteed home ties for doing XXX, they like having the right to decide on all venues themselves, make double headers if needed etc.