Car stolen, keys not touched

Capri

Mate just bought a 06 car on Thursday, parked it outside and on Sunday morning car gone but keys not touched

Any thoughts - seller had one more master key made and once he had address on reg. document just went there and lifted it ?

No repo involved AFIK so....

Who'd make spare immobiliser keys apart from dealer, or would a flatbed just come along and lift it ? ?

grainnewhale

I would be guessing last owner wont be answering the phone.

Stheno

grainnewhale wrote: »

I would be guessing last owner wont be answering the phone.

Same here

DieselPowered

Make and Model if possible? This is a regular thing on some older models.

Capri

grainnewhale wrote: »

I would be guessing last owner wont be answering the phone.

CORR-ECT

06 Avensis

bazz26

I'd put money on it having fake documents and number plates too.

Greenmachine

Did he buy it from the owners home address.

Capri

Greenmachine wrote: »

Did he buy it from the owners home address.

Not sure, I'd have been asking first how long he'd owned it for.

Bought Merc off Romanian before, gave me photocopy of his Irish licence and I had no problem luckily but :rolleyes:

Last car I bought the guy had a yard full of buses and cars but I'd be a lot more wary next time - things are changing a lot in the biz and you can't trust many people these days what with apartments/ foreigners / home grown crooks ... !:(

CiniO

Capri wrote: »

Mate just bought a 06 car on Thursday, parked it outside and on Sunday morning car gone but keys not touched


Who'd make spare immobiliser keys apart from dealer, or would a flatbed just come along and lift it ? ?

Why do you think thief had keys at all?
Most people who steal cars do it without a set of keys.

Capri

CiniO wrote: »

Why do you think thief had keys at all?
Most people who steal cars do it without a set of keys.

Mate said there was no broken glass and with all the immobiliser keys now surely the era of hotwiring is gone ??

CiniO

Capri wrote: »

Mate said there was no broken glass and with all the immobiliser keys now surely the era of hotwiring is gone ??

AFAIK era of hotwiring just got a bit more advanced and is keeping well.

There surely are cars which are very hard to steal without having keys (or in other words it's easier to steal a keys then a car), but most average car we see around, can be stolen without a keys within a minute. And no broken glass either.

RandomAccess

He might have had a tracker in the car. That way he could retrieve it at his convenience with another key. New scam every day on here these days!

But the worst thing is these aren't really new scams at all, it's just they are new to us because I don't think we Irish have really had much experience with proper organised con artists, pick pockets etc in the past so we are a bit trusting and naive. Seems that has not gone unnoticed!

Scary stuff.

mickdw

Say for example that the car had fake plates and log book, the chasis number would appear to be correct as the logbook would be made to match. The history would be clear as the pages would likely be from an identical car.
As long as the seller could pull off the sale without giving away any info add to true identity, address etc, it would be the perfect con. They could just take the car back and be free and clear.
Just goes to show, it is critical to do the normal background checks but also meeting at home address and seeing that this is the logbook address is also critical as is getting to at least see driving licence.

CiniO

It's not only that.
No point for scammer to go that far.

With current logbook arrangements, what's stopping seller to sell the vehicle, take cash, fill in the logbook, and let buyer take the car.
Then straight away ring the guards that car was stolen.
What proof does buyer have that he genuinely bought it? Nothing usually.
And filled in logbook - ends up in the bin, while owner has a replacement which he ordered a year earlier.

One word against each other.

SleeperService

CiniO wrote: »

Why do you think thief had keys at all?
Most people who steal cars do it without a set of keys.

I'm intrigued, apart from jap imports without immobilisers, modern start button bmws, and cars just loaded onto trucks or trailers, what is the way around the immobiliser? PM if you don't wanna publicise it?

eringobragh

SleeperService wrote: »

I'm intrigued, apart from jap imports without immobilisers, modern start button bmws, and cars just loaded onto trucks or trailers, what is the way around the immobiliser? PM if you don't wanna publicise it?

If you've the original key you can get it cloned (depending on car) for €65 - infact I paired a key successuflly with my immobiliser from one I got off alibaba - cost more to get the key cut then the actual key delivered. As it stands I have 4 alarm fobs and 3 chipped keys for my car (It only came with one when I bought it!)

Give new owner 2 keys - hang onto one and drive away - simple...cruel crel world.

SleeperService

eringobragh wrote: »

If you've the original key you can get it cloned (depending on car) for €65 - infact I paired a key successuflly with my immobiliser from one I got off alibaba - cost more to get the key cut then the actual key delivered. As it stands I have 4 alarm fobs and 3 chipped keys for my car (It only came with one when I bought it!)

Give new owner 2 keys - hang onto one and drive away - simple...cruel crel world.

Indeed, and it is most likely that someone held onto a key in this case and relieved the op of his car. However Cinio's allegation was that it is quite common now to steal cars without keys... Without keys, not "not with the owner's keys"

ironclaw

SleeperService wrote: »

I'm intrigued, apart from jap imports without immobilisers, modern start button bmws, and cars just loaded onto trucks or trailers, what is the way around the immobiliser? PM if you don't wanna publicise it?

As eringobragh said, you can mate a key to a car pretty easily if you know the sequence. Most cars can program a key themselves. I know a few Audi's and VW's can do this provided of course you have access to the car in an unlocked state.

SleeperService

ironclaw wrote: »

As eringobragh said, you can mate a key to a car pretty easily if you know the sequence. Most cars can program a key themselves. I know a few Audi's and VW's can do this provided of course you have access to the car in an unlocked state.

Again, im noticing you are using keys to steal a car without using keys... :-) ??

ironclaw

SleeperService wrote: »

Again, im noticing you are using keys to steal a car without using keys... :-) ??

Well, the point is, if I sold you a car and gave you two sets of keys, I could easily have a third inexpensive one mated to the car as well. People are under the impression is costs €100's to cut a key, when a blank off eBay for €30 will do the exact same job. As such when the car is lifted, and you still have your keys, it would appear the car was taken with no keys. Most people would assume that no one would have three sets of keys for a car.

Going a little more advanced, you could program a blank key off the VIN number if you had access to the relevant databases which I'm sure given the global crisis in IT security, wouldn't be all that hard irregardless of what manufacturers say.

And then, there is always brute force against the system itself. Cryptographically, cars are extremely weak.

bmstuff

ironclaw wrote: »

Well, the point is, if I sold you a car and gave you two sets of keys, I could easily have a third inexpensive one mated to the car as well. People are under the impression is costs €100's to cut a key, when a blank off eBay for €30 will do the exact same job. As such when the car is lifted, and you still have your keys, it would appear the car was taken with no keys. Most people would assume that no one would have three sets of keys for a car.

Going a little more advanced, you could program a blank key off the VIN number if you had access to the relevant databases which I'm sure given the global crisis in IT security, wouldn't be all that hard irregardless of what manufacturers say.

And then, there is always brute force against the system itself. Cryptographically, cars are extremely weak.

Cars use a rolling code since mid nineties, even if you had cracked a code with some computer, your code would be useless at the next start.
People who steal cars do not use Cray computers and tera flops whatever what.
They steal your key, made a spare key somehow, use a programer they buy from the internet to create a duplicate key (see recent bmw flop).

MugMugs

Toyota generally give two sets of keys and a Valet key (grey one)

listermint

bmstuff wrote: »

Cars use a rolling code since mid nineties, even if you had cracked a code with some computer, your code would be useless at the next start.
People who steal cars do not use Cray computers and tera flops whatever what.
They steal your key, made a spare key somehow, use a programer they buy from the internet to create a duplicate key (see recent bmw flop).

So whats to stop someone going up your window taking the VIN down and going to an unscrupulous dealer to get a new get ?

Will that key open just doors ? or does it also start the car?

Renegade Mechanic

listermint wrote: »

So whats to stop someone going up your window taking the VIN down and going to an unscrupulous dealer to get a new get ?

Will that key open just doors ? or does it also start the car?

I know for Renault the car has to be present in order to mate it to the key as that arrives blank. But theres a YouTube video of someone plugging a box into the diagnostic socket of an unlocked Laguna II, and it unlocks the steering, placates the immobiliser and allows the button to be used to start the car. No keys. Pretty bad really..

SleeperService

ironclaw wrote: »

Well, the point is, if I sold you a car and gave you two sets of keys, I could easily have a third inexpensive one mated to the car as well. People are under the impression is costs €100's to cut a key, when a blank off eBay for €30 will do the exact same job. As such when the car is lifted, and you still have your keys, it would appear the car was taken with no keys. Most people would assume that no one would have three sets of keys for a car.

Going a little more advanced, you could program a blank key off the VIN number if you had access to the relevant databases which I'm sure given the global crisis in IT security, wouldn't be all that hard irregardless of what manufacturers say.

And then, there is always brute force against the system itself. Cryptographically, cars are extremely weak.

Indeed, and at the risk of repeating myself, it is most likely that someone held onto a key in this case and relieved the OP of his car.

But it was Cinio's "no keys needed" situation that intrigued me. I thought it was only certain BMWs were vulnerable, it now lookslike renaults are also vulnerable, is it the case that any modern start button car is vulnerable to being duped by a particular piece of electronics connected via OBD socket

SleeperService

bmstuff wrote: »

Cars use a rolling code since mid nineties, even if you had cracked a code with some computer, your code would be useless at the next start.
People who steal cars do not use Cray computers and tera flops whatever what.
They steal your key, made a spare key somehow, use a programer they buy from the internet to create a duplicate key (see recent bmw flop).

One code generation module used by VW has been cracked, modelled whatever you wanna call it.
But yeah, I agree that in general code grabbing and prediction are not common or practical compared to duplicate keys or robbing owners keys.

Capri

CiniO wrote: »

It's not only that.
No point for scammer to go that far.

With current logbook arrangements, what's stopping seller to sell the vehicle, take cash, fill in the logbook, and let buyer take the car.
Then straight away ring the guards that car was stolen.
What proof does buyer have that he genuinely bought it? Nothing usually.
And filled in logbook - ends up in the bin, while owner has a replacement which he ordered a year earlier.

One word against each other.

I actually emailed the DoE re the new system of filling in the reg. doc. but having no proof of ownership when your driving it home.(In the old days there was the RF2 Change of Ownership form' and after that a tear of 'reciept' section of the reg. document - then there was no reciept, just good faith :mad: ) They came back with usually civil service waffle of 'the system provides the replacement papers within 7 days' and 'if the seller is unscrupulous then the Gardai should be informed' - fat lot of good when your money and car are gone !! :mad::mad:

CiniO

SleeperService wrote: »

But it was Cinio's "no keys needed" situation that intrigued me.

Immobiliesier is usually in the ecu. Why not take ECU out, and plug in your own, without a requirement for code from key?

grainnewhale

CiniO wrote: »

Immobiliesier is usually in the ecu. Why not take ECU out, and plug in your own, without a requirement for code from key?

not always though and it may be linked to other units in the car that would also have to be changed.

Wheelnut

Why does almost everyone on this thread quote the previous post in full before adding their own post?

... and why does almost everyone on this thread think that the OP had his car stolen? Read the first word in post 1.

I think I know what's going to happen next. (you're going for the "quote" button already, aren't you?)

ardle1

Wheelnut wrote: »

Why does almost everyone on this thread quote the previous post in full before adding their own post?

... and why does almost everyone on this thread think that the OP had his car stolen? Read the first word in post 1.

I think I know what's going to happen next. (you're going for the "quote" button already, aren't you?)

You is so observant innit, you is A cop innit:cool: and you is psychic.

wotzgoingon

Wheelnut wrote: »

Read the first word in post 1.

I'm just waiting for a mate!

RandomAccess

Wheelnut wrote: »

Why does almost everyone on this thread quote the previous post in full before adding their own post?

... and why does almost everyone on this thread think that the OP had his car stolen? Read the first word in post 1.

I think I know what's going to happen next. (you're going for the "quote" button already, aren't you?)

If you insist :P

galwaytt

Wheelnut wrote: »

Why does almost everyone on this thread quote the previous post in full before adding their own post?

... and why does almost everyone on this thread think that the OP had his car stolen? Read the first word in post 1.

I think I know what's going to happen next. (you're going for the "quote" button already, aren't you?)

Be rude not to, really. ..

galwaytt

RandomAccess wrote: »

If you insist :P

That's worth a quote in itself. ..

SleeperService

grainnewhale wrote: »

not always though and it may be linked to other units in the car that would also have to be changed.

Depends on the car I suppose, "coding" various sensors and modules to a modern car seems to be such an earner for dealers/specialists - imagine the electronic mutiny that would occur amongst other modules if a different ecu was plugged in. Could work in some cases, depend on the car. Would also need a physical key to match the ignition barrel (or hot wiring) for cars that use a mechanical ignition.