Cert of compliance/retention

Kashkai

I'll try to keep this brief.....

We engaged a RIAI registered Architect to design and oversee the build of our house in 2005. Following protracted and heated arguments over his "design statement" v what we wanted, he finally submitted our plans to the Council in late 2005 and we got planning approval in early 2006. Construction took place in 2006 and was finished by years end. During this period, the Architect:
1. Measured the foundations wrong with the result that the house was a metre and a half short and half a metre too narrow. I discovered this after I measured them myself but only after the raft foundation had been poured.

2. Set out the internal walls in the wrong places with the result that some had to be knocked and started again.

3. Charged me €500 for each site visit. However when he was due to check the house construction progress, I sat on site from 7am to 7pm with no sign of him, I rang him and asked how things were progressing. He said he was there that day and all was fine. I said that was funny as I was there and I didn't see him. He said how dare I try to catch him out and he then walked off the project.

The build progressed and I had an engineer check it periodically to see if the workmanship was up to standard.

Lately, we have decided to sell and it was only when the estate agent said we needed a cert of compliance that it dawned on me that we had no such document. We built the house from the cash from the sale of our old house and so didn't need any sign off for a bank loan. So I went to the Council to get a copy of the plans with the intention of getting another Architect to sign off on the build, only to get the shock that what they had on record was not what we had signed off on. The Architect had submitted an earlier plan that we had subsequently asked him to alter (prior to us signing off on what we wanted). So what we built is not what was approved by the Council. Now the differences aren't major but they are significant enough that no Architect could say that the house was built in compliance with the planning.

In summary, the garage on the plans was built as a bedroom and the kitchen has been extended out the back. Our house is rural, doesn't overlook anyone and so no one is effected by the alterations. However I need to get the house signed off to put it up for sale.

So how do I get the paperwork straight, ie engage an architect/technician to seek retention? Any idea how long it would take?

As for the original Architect, when he buggered off, I complained to the RIAI and they didn't want to know. I couldn't get another Architect on board as they said they weren't comfortable signing off on a project that was almost complete at that stage. I have tried to contact the original Architect recently but I understand that he's emigrated long since.

yoloc

OP, a good friend of mine was in a similar position as you only his house was moved halfway across the site (2acre) , very small changes to the house, added another bedroom and made the house smaller. Moved the percolation area and a different enterance. When he was thinking of applting for planning for a large garage, he got maps off the council and noticed it. He went crazy because as it stood, the building wasnt legal. He phoned his engineer but they ended up having a fall out over it. He had to apoint anothrr engineer to submit tge retention and the council never rejected. One thing thou, in the new plans the engineer added that the house had internal insulation boards which it didnt. Dont know why he done this thou.

A year later, same guy applies for same retention only this time he split the site in half and moved the boundry so when he sells, he can keep half. One thing the council added thou was that tge enterance had to be where it was in tge original plans tge first time applying for planning. Something they didnt do with the first retention. Strange that and i always wondered why they would do such a thing. This enterance isnt inside the new boundry so im curious how he would stand now with it all. Probably the planners dont want him building another house there and thats why they did this.

Insaying all that, i have read that a council somewhere in this country made somone knock a house down because they changed it and moved it like you.

If you leave it till after 7 years though, it legally becomes a building because no one has objected to it. I remember reading that somewhere, how true it is, i dont know.

DOCARCH

yoloc wrote: »

If you leave it till after 7 years though, it legally becomes a building because no one has objected to it. I remember reading that somewhere, how true it is, i dont know.

Yes, there is a 7 year rule...but...it does not make anything legal, it just means that the local authority cannot take enforcement proceedings/legal action after 7 years.

@Kashkai...that sounds like a right mess! If the original architect has emigrated, then, that is probably water under the bridge at this stage.

Possibly your only route is to go down the retention route? Maybe get a (good) architect/architectural technician (or even a planning consultant) to review what was built vs. what wa granted to see if there is a possibility that retention may not be required.

Kashkai

Thanks guys. I was fuming when I got a copy of the Councils plans and discovered that my house was "illegal". I had gone to great lengths hiring an expensive RIAI registered Architect to ensure that it was done right. I paid this guy €7,500 for the design and to get the planning sorted, which he messed up. If anyone can pm me with a recommendation of an Arch Tech who can advise/assist me with this, I'd appreciate it as I wanted to put the house on the market in the Spring.

yoloc

7.5k jesus! the cple i know only paid a fraction of that price, infact, take away the 7 and keep the .5 and your in the right ball park figer. I hope you get it all resolved. Keep us informed at the outcome because it will be interesting to hear what happens

Kashkai

Remember that was at the height of the boom when Architects were turning away work or telling you that they would call you back in 6 months. The fee above only covered his work up to the submission of the planning application. He then charged me €500 per site visit......until I wised up and caught him out.

Should I be worried that the Council may refuse the retention application? The house has been built since 2006 and there's been no complaints.

DOCARCH

Kashkai wrote: »

Should I be worried that the Council may refuse the retention application? The house has been built since 2006 and there's been no complaints.

Really depends on differences between what was originally granted and what was actually built. If they are relatively minor issues, I would suggest there should be no real issue with obtaining retention.

If bigger issues, then it may be worth talking to a planning consultant.

An explanation to the planners of how the differences came about (by pre-planning meeting/discussion) would not go amiss...they maybe more sympathetic (planners are human too! ).

The 7 year rule may also work in your favour (depending on when the work/house was completed?)...if it is over 7 years since completion, then, there is not much point in refusing retention (as there is not much they can do about it).

rodzer

Kashkai, I came across a very similar situation recently.
A chap came to me looking for a cert of compliance with planning permission. His original engineer has emigrated.
Basically the engineer told him he could change around the layout of the house as long as the outside stayed the same.
Guess what?
The complete internal arrangement of the rooms was altered and every elevation had changed also. The house wasnt even in the same location as the planning permission drawings.
I had to apply for retention for him. We got the retention even though my client said it was almost definitely going to be objected to by certain neighbours.
So there should be no need to worry.
Best of luck with it.
rodzer
Edit. I can't believe that fee either, crikey.

newbie2013

Kashkai wrote: »

Remember that was at the height of the boom when Architects were turning away work or telling you that they would call you back in 6 months. The fee above only covered his work up to the submission of the planning application. He then charged me €500 per site visit......until I wised up and caught him out.

Should I be worried that the Council may refuse the retention application? The house has been built since 2006 and there's been no complaints.

500 per site visit, what you building a hotel lol. When mines called, i think his was a 60 or 70 euro call out fee. 500 sounds crazey even in the boom years. I dont even think any engineer was on 500 a day whe he tallied up his wages at end of theweek in the boom (thats engineers looking over one off houses)

DOCARCH

newbie2013 wrote: »

I dont even think any engineer was on 500 a day whe he tallied up his wages at end of theweek in the boom (thats engineers looking over one off houses)

...well...this will I know drag the thread off topic, but if you worked it out, E 500 a day, after you pay your tax, overheads, pi insurance, VAT, etc., etc, probably works out at around a salary of E60K a year...not really excessive.

In relation to the OP and the E 500 per site visit vs. the engineer charging E 60 or E 70...I suppose it all depends on what a site visit is/what it means?

This sounds like it would not apply to the OP, but I have done site visits that in total may take up the entire day (and what I mean by that is maybe 10 hours!).

Get up and have breakfast...travel to site, inspect, meet the builder, go through any issues with the builder, meet the clients, go through any issues with the clients, travel back, write up site meeting minutes notes, prepare a couple of sketch details, answer builders/clients queries, follow up with suppliers...dinner and bed! Note breakfast and dinner time not included in the 10 hours!

So...it all depends.

newbie2013

DOCARCH wrote: »

...well...this will I know drag the thread off topic, but if you worked it out, E 500 a day, after you pay your tax, overheads, pi insurance, VAT, etc., etc, probably works out at around a salary of E60K a year...not really excessive.

In relation to the OP and the E 500 per site visit vs. the engineer charging E 60 or E 70...I suppose it all depends on what a site visit is/what it means?

This sounds like it would not apply to the OP, but I have done site visits that in total may take up the entire day (and what I mean by that is maybe 10 hours!).

Get up and have breakfast...travel to site, inspect, meet the builder, go through any issues with the builder, meet the clients, go through any issues with the clients, travel back, write up site meeting minutes notes, prepare a couple of sketch details, answer builders/clients queries, follow up with suppliers...dinner and bed! Note breakfast and dinner time not included in the 10 hours!

So...it all depends.

Would you charge 500 per visit though

newbie2013

DOCARCH wrote: »

...well...this will I know drag the thread off topic, but if you worked it out, E 500 a day, after you pay your tax, overheads, pi insurance, VAT, etc., etc, probably works out at around a salary of E60K a year...not really excessive.

In relation to the OP and the E 500 per site visit vs. the engineer charging E 60 or E 70...I suppose it all depends on what a site visit is/what it means?

This sounds like it would not apply to the OP, but I have done site visits that in total may take up the entire day (and what I mean by that is maybe 10 hours!).

Get up and have breakfast...travel to site, inspect, meet the builder, go through any issues with the builder, meet the clients, go through any issues with the clients, travel back, write up site meeting minutes notes, prepare a couple of sketch details, answer builders/clients queries, follow up with suppliers...dinner and bed! Note breakfast and dinner time not included in the 10 hours!

So...it all depends.

I project managed my own build and engineer called out to check the work, prob why my fees were so low but 500 still sounds silly money to me.

DOCARCH

newbie2013 wrote: »

Would you charge 500 per visit though

No comment! I am no monkey!!!

4Sticks

DOCARCH wrote: »

No comment! I am no monkey!!!

Well I'm a rhino .

Thick skinned and liable to charge anything.

€500 be cheap for me . :cool:

Kashkai

Ok guys. I rang 8 Architects at the time, five of whom were too busy to take on my project. Of the other three, the guy I hired was the cheapest. My house is 2,800 sq ft btw. Considering how he fcuked up the planning, I was well and truly ripped off.

yoloc

I think when you apply for rentention, youll pay per the sq ft. It used to be a one off fee but not no more.

mickdw

Shouldn't be an issue with getting retention.
Your will be looking at a significant sum for someone to draw up everything, submit etc and then certify.