FRC proposal for revamp of Provincial Championship

Fr Tod Umptious

Interesting proposal here from the FRC on the provincial championship

They propose that the loosers of the 3 Leinster preliminaries and the 1 Ulster preliminary get dropped into the draw for the quarter finals in Connaught and Munster

I'm all for change in the provincial structure but I find this one a bit OTT.
Realigning the provinces into 4 regions of 8 would have made more long term sense if you ask me.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/football/2013/1209/491734-radical-proposals-to-alter-championship-format/

RTE wrote:

The GAA’s Football Review Committee (FRC) has proposed a radical restructuring of the inter-county championship, which would see eight teams and, therefore, four quarter-finals in each province.
The committee, headed by Eugene McGee, proposes that the four preliminary round losers in the Ulster and Leinster Championships be entered in the Munster and Connacht Championships.
Under the current system there is one preliminary game in Ulster and three in Leinster. The losers of these games would be entered into the draw for the quarter-finals of the Munster and Connacht Championships.
The losers of the Ulster Championship preliminary round would move to the Connacht Championship along with one of the Leinster losers.
The other two losers in the Leinster Championship would move to the Munster Championship, giving the province an eight-team football championship.
Connacht would then have a nine-team championship (including London and New York), with, unless New York decide not to compete, the Connacht Championship preliminary round match in Gaelic Park being retained.
It is unclear as to whether the preliminary round losers, if beaten a second time, would be eligible to take part in the qualifiers, although the FRC have proposed that the first round of the qualifiers would still have 16 teams involved.
The FRC has also proposed that the All-Ireland Club Football final be moved from the now traditional date of St Patrick’s Day to a date in December, meaning the club championships would be run off in the calendar year.
The committee also expressed its concerns about counties, such as Donegal, proposing not to schedule the start of their club championships until after the county team has been knocked out of the All-Ireland championship.
The committee also proposes a one-year lowering of the age for the minor grade from under 18 to under 17.

iDave

When this story broke this morning I thought great the FRC are finally proposing a 4x8 province system. With each province getting 4 quarter finals played by 8 teams, then semis etc. Every team plays the same amount of games to reach a provincial final.
Instead Leinster and Ulster are still saddled with preliminary rounds meaning some teams still have to play 4 games to win a province while others play 3. Bit of a cop out and to be honest I think this half way house solution has been created as not to offend the likes of Longford, Wexford, Donegal etc who may of been asked to permanently move to another province.
So anyway if this goes through counties dumped out at preliminary level will complain they now have to play far away to continue to compete while everyone else will complain saying some teams can lose twice and still be in the qualifiers and a third time to get knocked out of the championship completely while provincial winners will be out after one defeat.

yop

Ok, so last year Armagh, Laois, Longford and Carlow all would be added to either Connacht or Munster.
From Londons point of view and I know it was a once off, would they have beaten Armagh and if not then they give up the fact they got to a Connacht final. So IF for example Leitrim, who are a county on tight funds, had to play Armagh, does that mean they have to travel up there or would it always be a case that the Ulster team will travel?
It makes no sense for the Munster/Ulster match up.

What benefit with the minor now becoming U17? So then there is a year where more players can get "lost". Does that mean then that the club level will now be U17 and not U18? Be a big jump for last who are say just gone 18 to make the move to U21, there is a lot of physical change in those years.

Agree about the club thing, get it done and dusted in the calender year.

Just my thoughts!

J Cheever Loophole

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I'm all for change in the provincial structure but I find this one a bit OTT.
Realigning the provinces into 4 regions of 8 would have made more long term sense if you ask me.

You'll forgive me I hope, but this is something that I cannot understand. Once you start tinkering with the make up of provinces, then the provinces themselves cease to exist, i.e. there is no province with eight counties.

Now I understand totally the desire to have change, or indeed equal groups to ensure a level playing field, but why should that be in any way aligned to the notion of provinces, once that break with tradition is made?

The likely argument in response will be that Provincial Championships give lesser teams a chance for their day in the sun, but it surely cannot be beyond the minds of our foremost thinkers to come up with a Championship that takes account of these needs?

Flukey

Looking at this, the terms of reference of this committee must be "Find the stupidest ideas you can possibly think of and then try and put some of them into practice." The provincial championships should be left as they are. Galway and Antrim should be sent packing back to their own provinces in Hurling, and something actually done about those provinces to promote Hurling in them. That experiment has failed miserably, and yet now they want to take the idea to football to an even more ridiculous level.

As to trying to complete the club competitions in the calendar year, another mad idea. All year we hear about troubles completing the championships, and this idea has the potential to squeeze it even further. It could allow more time, but knowing the way the GAA organise things at times, they'll end up making it worse. Then there is the All-Ireland Club Finals. St. Patrick's Day has proved to be quite successful as the day for the finals, yet some genius wants to move that to December. People who come up with ideas like that should be in a strait jacket and locked in a padded room.

Tom Joad

The GAA were never going to tinker with the provinces for football - not in a million years!!

But in saying that of all the ideas I've heard this is not the worst idea and will go someway to balancing the provincial system without getting rid off the provinces. Haven't had a chance to read the proposals in detail but would assume that for this to work there should be no seeding in any provincial championship and the draws are open - could make for a very interesting championship.

The club championship idea is a sensible one too. Would like there to be stricter rules about a defined season for county championships and leagues - i.e a defined close season.

Not sure about the rationale of reducing the minor age level so will hold my thoughts on this until I hear the rationale of the FRC.

Prop Joe

Thought it would make more sense to move minor to u-19,guys in 1st year in college....

There needs to be a strict closed season for intercounty

All competitions should be completed in the Calendar year

There needs to be a tweak in the format of the All Ireland but this proposal by the Frc is not the answer

sid waddell

Flukey wrote: »

The provincial championships should be left as they are. Galway and Antrim should be sent packing back to their own provinces in Hurling, and something actually done about those provinces to promote Hurling in them. That experiment has failed miserably, and yet now they want to take the idea to football to an even more ridiculous level.

On the contrary, it's clearly been quite a successful development, given that the competitiveness of the Leinster Championship has improved significantly and is now pretty much on a par with Munster.

premierstone

Flukey wrote: »

Looking at this, the terms of reference of this committee must be "Find the stupidest ideas you can possibly think of and then try and put some of them into practice." The provincial championships should be left as they are. Galway and Antrim should be sent packing back to their own provinces in Hurling, and something actually done about those provinces to promote Hurling in them. That experiment has failed miserably, and yet now they want to take the idea to football to an even more ridiculous level.

How exactly has it failed miserably?? The only redicilous thing about it is that they are not moved there at all grades and only for Senior intercounty.

iDave

Haven't Galway been in about 4 Leinster finals and won 1 of them. Not bad. Not sure what miracles were expected in Antrim.

keeponhurling

What are the advantages of moving away from the provincial system in football?

Flukey

Come on lads, anyone that has been looking in on this board has seen us debate this before, and my opinions on it. But to go through it for the umpteenth time, it has achieved nothing for Galway. Prior to it they used to do things like play teams like Offaly and Laois and Kilkenny etc. After they started, they began to play teams like Offaly and Laois and Kilkenny etc. They even beat Kilkenny, just like they did in 2001 and 2005, before making the move. So, nothing changed. They are doing nothing different now than they were doing before the experiment. They were stopped playing teams that they were not playing and allowed to play teams that they were already playing. No change.

The bigger failure is what has been done in Connacht: Nothing. At least in Ulster they have a championship. After moving Galway out, the logical thing to do was to have a Connacht Championship with the other 4 counties, and possibly New York and London, like in football. Did that happen? No. The rest of Connacht was always the problem, not Galway. In any year, Galway were always listed as among the favourites to win the All-Ireland, so they had no problems, yet they, not the other Connacht counties, were deemed to be a problem. Moving Galway completely ignored the real problem and it has done nothing for Galway that they were not already doing. It may have given them another trophy to aim for, but they are far more interested in Liam than Bob. Sure, they won Bob last year and reached the All-Ireland final, but they've reached the final and toppled other big teams before this experiment. They got to the final last year because they were good enough to do so, as they were in 2005 and 2001, and not because they were playing Leinster teams. They were doing that anyway.

Even for Antrim, they are not doing much different to what they were doing beforehand. They are playing the same teams as they were. They are still a bit short of the standard needed to challenge for silverware, and playing the teams they were already playing hasn't done much to change that. A bit like in Connacht, it is the other Ulster counties that need the help. Nothing has been done for them. Maybe something like giving the winners a place in the championship might be an idea instead of flatly excluding them. Beyond the trophy, there is no benefit to the Ulster champions. Making the hunt for Liam an exclusive club is not right. The other counties should at least have the option to choose to do so or not. The real weak counties won't but the likes of Down for example, should at least have that option open to them. Things have been made tougher on the weaker counties and they have been more marginalised by these changes. So like I said, they have failed; as much as by what has not been done as by what has been done.

sid waddell

The aim of including Galway and Antrim was to improve the Leinster Championship. It has clearly done this.

You need to look elsewhere for the reasons why weak counties are weak and ways of addressing that, which are all long-term and nothing to do with Galway and Antrim playing in Leinster.

Throwing Galway and Antrim out of Leinster will not benefit those counties, will not benefit the Leinster Championship and the championship in general and will not benefit weaker counties. It won't benefit anybody. But it would certainly make things worse and more disjointed.

munchkin_utd

There's details that the journalists in rte have missed which are quite important, so I'd advise others to read the actual report
http://www.gaa.ie/content/documents/publications/FRC%20Part%202.pdf

- the teams which play the Ulster/ Leinster preliminary round will be determined by league position, so will be div 4 or 3 teams. This means the losers who end up in a game against say London will be as competitive as the games they would have against existing div 4 outfits in Connacht, I.e. Leitrim.
- not having strong teams entering the neighboring competition will mean a low chance of an outsider winning it so should be fairly acceptable to congress and to the host provinces
- having weaker teams play the preliminary round gives them a guaranteed 3 games, I.e, a prelim, then a provincial quarter even if they loose, and a qualifier game should they loose again. And with the gap between games tightened you might have less buggering off to New York (which may be banned anyhow if I heard correctly)
- timing! They are doing exactly what I proposed in a much ignored post here earlier in the year, i.e. Tightening up provincial schedules as opposed to scrapping the provincials altogether and coming in with a brand new format which many here get very excited about but wouldn't have a hope of ever getting past congress. Currently ulster quarter finals take 4 weeks then a fortnight gap before a semi is played. The provincial semis then are run off over a number of weeks. This is insane so the frc are proposing that all quarters are run off over 2 consecutive weekends and all provincial semis also over 2 weekends.
- this has the positive knock on effect on that the qualifiers can start earlier and are then less congested which is really the main problem with the championship as it stands.

Overall this is making more sense than it seems at first glance!

Grats

The proposal re club championships makes sense. Both football and hurling should be completed before Christmas. That way all clubs from the different provinces would be on equal footing. Currently both the Leinster and Munster champions have to peak to win their provincial championship, then endure a long break over Christmas and then try to peak again in Jan/Feb.

I agree with the post that ALL Galway and Antrim teams should enter the Leinster championships.

keeponhurling

And maybe Kerry could enter the Leinster championship as well

CrabRevolution

Flukey wrote: »

Come on lads, anyone that has been looking in on this board has seen us debate this before, and my opinions on it. But to go through it for the umpteenth time, it has achieved nothing for Galway. Prior to it they used to do things like play teams like Offaly and Laois and Kilkenny etc. After they started, they began to play teams like Offaly and Laois and Kilkenny etc. They even beat Kilkenny, just like they did in 2001 and 2005, before making the move. So, nothing changed. They are doing nothing different now than they were doing before the experiment. They were stopped playing teams that they were not playing and allowed to play teams that they were already playing. No change.

The bigger failure is what has been done in Connacht: Nothing. At least in Ulster they have a championship. After moving Galway out, the logical thing to do was to have a Connacht Championship with the other 4 counties, and possibly New York and London, like in football. Did that happen? No. The rest of Connacht was always the problem, not Galway. In any year, Galway were always listed as among the favourites to win the All-Ireland, so they had no problems, yet they, not the other Connacht counties, were deemed to be a problem. Moving Galway completely ignored the real problem and it has done nothing for Galway that they were not already doing. It may have given them another trophy to aim for, but they are far more interested in Liam than Bob. Sure, they won Bob last year and reached the All-Ireland final, but they've reached the final and toppled other big teams before this experiment. They got to the final last year because they were good enough to do so, as they were in 2005 and 2001, and not because they were playing Leinster teams. They were doing that anyway.

Even for Antrim, they are not doing much different to what they were doing beforehand. They are playing the same teams as they were. They are still a bit short of the standard needed to challenge for silverware, and playing the teams they were already playing hasn't done much to change that. A bit like in Connacht, it is the other Ulster counties that need the help. Nothing has been done for them. Maybe something like giving the winners a place in the championship might be an idea instead of flatly excluding them. Beyond the trophy, there is no benefit to the Ulster champions. Making the hunt for Liam an exclusive club is not right. The other counties should at least have the option to choose to do so or not. The real weak counties won't but the likes of Down for example, should at least have that option open to them. Things have been made tougher on the weaker counties and they have been more marginalised by these changes. So like I said, they have failed; as much as by what has not been done as by what has been done.

Totally disagree with the idea that giving the Ulster champions a spot in Liam MacCarthy will improve them. They do this in the minor and U21 and the results dont indicate in any way that it drives teams to improve.

The Ulster champions did play in the All Ireland series on and off throughout the years, in 1943 Antrim beat Kilkenny and Galway, then in 1989 they beat Offaly. These results stand out amongst many trouncings though

The Ulster minor hurling champions have played in 73 all ireland quarter/semi finals and lost all bar one of them-that win coming in 1940. This year Antrim beat Wexford in the U21, but that was the first time in 50 attempts that the Ulster champions have won a game in the All Ireland series.

So in 123 cracks at the All Ireland series in minor and U21, Ulster teams (well, both were Antrim) at these levels have produced 2 wins. Being in the All Ireland series hasnt improved them one bit.

Coillte_Bhoy

yop wrote: »

Ok, so last year Armagh, Laois, Longford and Carlow all would be added to either Connacht or Munster.
From Londons point of view and I know it was a once off, would they have beaten Armagh and if not then they give up the fact they got to a Connacht final. So IF for example Leitrim, who are a county on tight funds, had to play Armagh, does that mean they have to travel up there or would it always be a case that the Ulster team will travel?

Just my thoughts!

There isn't much of a difference in the distances between Carrick, and Galway (119km), Armagh and(126km) Castlebar (90km). There might be many reasons to oppose this idea but i dont think cost is one of them

J Cheever Loophole wrote: »

You'll forgive me I hope, but this is something that I cannot understand. Once you start tinkering with the make up of provinces, then the provinces themselves cease to exist, i.e. there is no province with eight counties.

Now I understand totally the desire to have change, or indeed equal groups to ensure a level playing field, but why should that be in any way aligned to the notion of provinces, once that break with tradition is made?

The likely argument in response will be that Provincial Championships give lesser teams a chance for their day in the sun, but it surely cannot be beyond the minds of our foremost thinkers to come up with a Championship that takes account of these needs?

The provincial councils are powerful bodies and if the provincial c'ships were scrapped their raison d'etre would largely cease to exist so the c'ship will be based on the provincial model for some time to come yet

Xenophile

In regard to football all I can say as I do not know about other counties that Tipperary would welcome a couple of new teams in Munster. As most of you already know the weaker counties in Munster have indicated that they are not prepared to play in the 2015 Championship if Kerry and Cork are seeded. I must say that I agree with the stance they have adopted.

Must give credit to Eugene Magee for coming up with some new ideas. He is a passionate football man and he deserves credit whether you agree or disagree with his proposals.

Tom Joad

Xenophile wrote: »

In regard to football all I can say as I do not know about other counties that Tipperary would welcome a couple of new teams in Munster. As most of you already know the weaker counties in Munster have indicated that they are not prepared to play in the 2015 Championship if Kerry and Cork are seeded. I must say that I agree with the stance they have adopted.

Must give credit to Eugene Magee for coming up with some new ideas. He is a passionate football man and he deserves credit whether you agree or disagree with his proposals.

Agree with you on both counts. McGee is also a very shrewd and pragmatic man - he knew this was the most progressive solution that the provincial councils would swallow.

keeponhurling

So instead if 5 trophies to compete for and 5 finals to be played, there would only be one ?

"Provincials" wouldn't be worth anything if they are just random groups of counties

J Cheever Loophole

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

The provincial councils are powerful bodies and if the provincial c'ships were scrapped their raison d'etre would largely cease to exist so the c'ship will be based on the provincial model for some time to come yet

Agree with you 100%. That of course does not make the proposal right.

Fr Tod Umptious

munchkin_utd wrote: »

There's details that the journalists in rte have missed which are quite important, so I'd advise others to read the actual report
http://www.gaa.ie/content/documents/publications/FRC%20Part%202.pdf

- the teams which play the Ulster/ Leinster preliminary round will be determined by league position, so will be div 4 or 3 teams. This means the losers who end up in a game against say London will be as competitive as the games they would have against existing div 4 outfits in Connacht, I.e. Leitrim.
- not having strong teams entering the neighboring competition will mean a low chance of an outsider winning it so should be fairly acceptable to congress and to the host provinces
- having weaker teams play the preliminary round gives them a guaranteed 3 games, I.e, a prelim, then a provincial quarter even if they loose, and a qualifier game should they loose again. And with the gap between games tightened you might have less buggering off to New York (which may be banned anyhow if I heard correctly)
- timing! They are doing exactly what I proposed in a much ignored post here earlier in the year, i.e. Tightening up provincial schedules as opposed to scrapping the provincials altogether and coming in with a brand new format which many here get very excited about but wouldn't have a hope of ever getting past congress. Currently ulster quarter finals take 4 weeks then a fortnight gap before a semi is played. The provincial semis then are run off over a number of weeks. This is insane so the frc are proposing that all quarters are run off over 2 consecutive weekends and all provincial semis also over 2 weekends.
- this has the positive knock on effect on that the qualifiers can start earlier and are then less congested which is really the main problem with the championship as it stands.

Overall this is making more sense than it seems at first glance!

I have always thought that the next structural change to the championship should be the evening out of the provincial setup to allow for 4 groups of 8
And that structure should be geographical first and foremost so that the 'provinces' are not drastically changed and the for the most part existing rivalries can be maintained.

I thinks that this is a setp in the right direction towards eventually adopting the above setup, so I would be willing to support it and see how it works

I am not sure how the counties involved in the setup suggested will take to the idea of playing in two different provincial championships in the same season

To be honest I doubt it will pass congress.

Coillte_Bhoy

keeponhurling wrote: »

And maybe Kerry could enter the Leinster championship as well

jaysus you're hilarious.

keeponhurling wrote: »

So instead if 5 trophies to compete for and 5 finals to be played, there would only be one ?

"Provincials" wouldn't be worth anything if they are just random groups of counties

You obviously havent read the proposal, tey are far from random groups.

J Cheever Loophole wrote: »

Agree with you 100%. That of course does not make the proposal right.

Maybe not but it's as radical a change as has any chance of getting passed.

iDave

The more I think about it the more I'm coming round to this idea. I would prefer proper 4x8 but its not going to happen. No county will accept being told to permanently switch province so perhaps this pragmatic solution is the best way to go. At this stage I think any reform is better than no reform given the mess the provincial structures are.

My main concern though would be if Wicklow were drawn with Carlow for a Leinster preliminary the winners will know in advance who they will play. So if the winners are drawn to play Dublin in Leinster QF and losers drawn to play Waterford in Munster QF you could see strategic defeats. Perhaps weakened teams being played so they get Waterford instead of Dublin. If Munster isn't seeded then you could get Tipp or Clare in a semi also. Not much incentive to win your preliminary is there?

iDave

the timing proposals also make a lot of sense. Get the Prelims done in a weekend and the QFs over 2. May and June are all over the place at the moment with the provinces dragging out the earlier rounds.
Anything to help the club situation too.

yop

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

There isn't much of a difference in the distances between Carrick, and Galway (119km), Armagh and(126km) Castlebar (90km). There might be many reasons to oppose this idea but i dont think cost is one of them

Had a gander there on AA, from Carrick to Salthill its 123km.
Carrick to Armagh is 166km.
Thats over 80km round trip, which is still an hour extra in fairness. If its Belfast its even further again.
How many would travel from Galway to Belfast for a 1st/2nd round match.
For fans on tight budgets it would be a no no.

blue note

I'd like to see a re-jig of the provinces, but a straightforward one of 4 provinces of 8.

Coillte_Bhoy

yop wrote: »

Had a gander there on AA, from Carrick to Salthill its 123km.
Carrick to Armagh is 166km.
Thats over 80km round trip, which is still an hour extra in fairness. If its Belfast its even further again.
How many would travel from Galway to Belfast for a 1st/2nd round match.
For fans on tight budgets it would be a no no.

Ok i must have got my figures wrong. Either way i dont think it will be a factor.

rebel girl 15

The thing with changing the minor to under 17 is that it avoids lads that are doing their Leaving Certificate, they are under enough stress at that time. The proposals would be that under 21 would probably drop to under 20 to cater for the minor change.

The proposed changes are the only ones that would be swallowed by the provincial councils and by the general population as it still keeps a provincial competition. A 4 x 8 competition was never going to work, counties would never be happy competing permanently in a different province, so this is probably the only solution that goes someway to keeping everyone happy!

Coillte_Bhoy

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

The thing with changing the minor to under 17 is that it avoids lads that are doing their Leaving Certificate, they are under enough stress at that time. The proposals would be that under 21 would probably drop to under 20 to cater for the minor change.

The proposed changes are the only ones that would be swallowed by the provincial councils and by the general population as it still keeps a provincial competition. A 4 x 8 competition was never going to work, counties would never be happy competing permanently in a different province, so this is probably the only solution that goes someway to keeping everyone happy!

If they were going to go with 4x8, they could scarp the provinces and go with 4 conferences, North,. South, East and West. Use these as the basis for all underage competitions also

iDave

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

If they were going to go with 4x8, they could scarp the provinces and go with 4 conferences, North,. South, East and West. Use these as the basis for all underage competitions also

Provincial councils wont agree to it and counties told to move will kick up a fuss

Fr Tod Umptious

iDave wrote: »

Provincial councils wont agree to it and counties told to move will kick up a fuss

I really don't see why they would

Why would Clare football prefer to play in Munster than Connaught ?
Why would Wexford prefer Leinster than Munster ?
etc etc

The provincial councils will have the exactly the same roles and responsibilities if they are organising 4 separate divisions/conferences/regions as they currently have today running 4 separate provinces

Provinces are just a throw back to some ancient division of the island that the GAA then used back in the 1800s to organise their association.
People have to stop thinking in 'provinces'

iDave

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I really don't see why they would

Why would Clare football prefer to play in Munster than Connaught ?
Why would Wexford prefer Leinster than Munster ?
etc etc

The provincial councils will have the exactly the same roles and responsibilities if they are organising 4 separate divisions/conferences/regions as they currently have today running 4 separate provinces

Provinces are just a throw back to some ancient division of the island that the GAA then used back in the 1800s to organise their association.
People have to stop thinking in 'provinces'

Donegal, Fermanagh, Cavan, Longford, Westmeath, Laois, Offaly, Carlow and Wexford would be the counties most likely to be in the firing line for any re-designation. Perhaps posters from this selection could respond and let us know how they feel about being moved to a different province/conference permanently.
I actually agree largely to what your saying but my feeling is a lot of people wont be too happy to move.
Its unlikely Clare will move to Connacht. Why move a county from a province already low on numbers to another one. Robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Fr Tod Umptious

iDave wrote: »

Donegal, Fermanagh, Cavan, Longford, Westmeath, Laois, Offaly, Carlow and Wexford would be the counties most likely to be in the firing line for any re-designation. Perhaps posters from this selection could respond and let us know how they feel about being moved to a different province/conference permanently.
I actually agree largely to what your saying but my feeling is a lot of people wont be too happy to move.
Its unlikely Clare will move to Connacht. Why move a county from a province already low on numbers to another one. Robbing Peter to pay Paul.

North
Donegal, Derry, Antrim,Armagh, Tyrone, Monaghan, Fergamagh, Down
East
Louth, Cavan, Offaly, Meath, Dublin, Kildare, Laois, Wicklow
South
Wexford, Waterford, Cork, Kerry, Tipp, Carlow, Limerick, Clare/London
West
Clare\London, Galway, Mayo, Roscommon, Sligo, Leitrim, Longford, Westmeath

Something like that

TheHighest92

if any of the ulster teams have to move i think it should be cavan, the area only came into ulster in 1584 and the place has a connacht vibe about it in my opinion, of course things get complicated with this due to northern parts of louth being historically in ulster

seligehgit

Tom Joad wrote: »

The GAA were never going to tinker with the provinces for football - not in a million years!!

You hit the nail on the head Tom,the provincial championships are sacrosanct.Really like the proposals,very innovative.Eugene McGee is one of the great thinkers within the GAA.
The Munster and Connaught Championships are likely to become more competitive if the losers of the preliminary ties(based on league positions) in Leinster and Ulster enter their provinces.
Changing the minors grade from under 18s to under 17s is very sensible considering the age profile of leaving certificate students.
Finishing the club championship in the calendar year is reasonable but I'd miss the St. Patrick's day finals,so engrained in the mindset.

Coillte_Bhoy

iDave wrote: »

Provincial councils wont agree to it and counties told to move will kick up a fuss

Well that was kind of my point, creating 4 'conferences' or whatever you want to call them keeps the basic provincial type structures in place so they can retain their power, committees, expenses etc

keeponhurling

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Why would Clare football prefer to play in Munster than connacht ？

'

Because we are located in Munster. We won it before and would like to win it again.
We border Tipp and Limerick and are across the estuary from Kerry.

Fail to see how games v mayo/Leitrim /Galway is any better than Limerick/Kerry /tipp etc.

I'm failing to see the advantages of switching to another system

Tom Joad

TheHighest92 wrote: »

if any of the ulster teams have to move i think it should be cavan, the area only came into ulster in 1584 and the place has a connacht vibe about it in my opinion, of course things get complicated with this due to northern parts of louth being historically in ulster

WTF???? I'm outraged - absolutely outraged - not really sure which part outrages me more but rest assured I'm outraged Explain the Connacht vibe though?? See how many more posters you can outrage!!

On a more serious note the provincial systems are one of the sacred cows that people won't tolerate being tinkered with. On Cavan in Connacht - think we would have more success than in Ulster on recent history but its a moot argument.

ProudDUB

I too am in favour of 4 regional provinces with 8 counties per province. However, I can see why counties being told to move permanently would be ticked off. So to get around that, how about the lowest ranked Ulster county and the 4 lowest ranked Leinster counties at the end of the league, have to move to either Munster or Connaught for that years AI champo only. Or if you didn't want to make it be the worst performing teams (which would probably impact the same counties year in and year out) you could have the criteria be something more random, such as the Ulster/Leinster counties who scores the least goals in the league has to move. Then the following year, it happens all over again. You get your even 4 x 8 match ups in four geographical provinces, but who has to "move" gets rotated every year. That seems fairer to me, than making a few counties switch provinces for good.

Rockfish

ProudDUB wrote: »

I too am in favour of 4 regional provinces with 8 counties per province. However, I can see why counties being told to move permanently would be ticked off. So to get around that, how about the lowest ranked Ulster county and the 4 lowest ranked Leinster counties at the end of the league, have to move to either Munster or Connaught for that years AI champo only. Or if you didn't want to make it be the worst performing teams (which would probably impact the same counties year in and year out) you could have the criteria be something more random, such as the Ulster/Leinster counties who scores the least goals in the league has to move. Then the following year, it happens all over again. You get your even 4 x 8 match ups in four geographical provinces, but who has to "move" gets rotated every year. That seems fairer to me, than making a few counties switch provinces for good.

There is no proposal to move counties permanently. Will change every year and will only be Div 3 or 4 teams so not a million miles from your idea

TheHighest92

Tom Joad wrote: »

WTF???? I'm outraged - absolutely outraged - not really sure which part outrages me more but rest assured I'm outraged Explain the Connacht vibe though?? See how many more posters you can outrage!!

On a more serious note the provincial systems are one of the sacred cows that people won't tolerate being tinkered with. On Cavan in Connacht - think we would have more success than in Ulster on recent history but its a moot argument.

most people would thank me on this site if i said there homeland didn't have an ulster vibe. i'm not sure what i mean, it's just when i hear the accent i just can never view the people as fellow ulstermen, too much of a southern influence i suppose

Fr Tod Umptious

Tom Joad wrote: »

The GAA were never going to tinker with the provinces for football - not in a million years!! .

Under this proposal four teams will play in two different provincial championships in a single year.
That four teams may be completely different the next year
If that is not tinkering I don’t know what it is.

Fr Tod Umptious

keeponhurling wrote: »

Because we are located in Munster. We won it before and would like to win it again.
We border Tipp and Limerick and are across the estuary from Kerry.

Fail to see how games v mayo/Leitrim /Galway is any better than Limerick/Kerry /tipp etc.

I'm failing to see the advantages of switching to another system

Leitrim borders three Ulster, one Leinster and one Connaught county, and it's in Connaught

As I said earlier people need to stop thinking in terms of theses pre Norman kingdoms and think about the future of the Championship

ballsymchugh

iDave wrote: »

Donegal, Fermanagh, Cavan, Longford, Westmeath, Laois, Offaly, Carlow and Wexford would be the counties most likely to be in the firing line for any re-designation. Perhaps posters from this selection could respond and let us know how they feel about being moved to a different province/conference permanently.
I actually agree largely to what your saying but my feeling is a lot of people wont be too happy to move.
Its unlikely Clare will move to Connacht. Why move a county from a province already low on numbers to another one. Robbing Peter to pay Paul.

i'm from longford, as is Eugene Magee. he's been championing the 4 areas of 8 for a few years now, and i think this kinda sounds like a climbdown to keep the provincial councils happy.

i'm all for it. longford aren't going to win a leinster senior title for a very long time. underage is going strong but can't just get over the last hurdle (2 leinster u21 finals in the past few years was excellent progress)

as one previous poster mentioned, the provinces are an unnecessary pain in the arse drawn up from ancient times. it may be romantic but it's non functional. four areas of 8 would make the season more compact without teams waiting from the end of may to the middle of july for their first qualifier match.

munchkin_utd

TheHighest92 wrote: »

if any of the ulster teams have to move i think it should be cavan, the area only came into ulster in 1584 and the place has a connacht vibe about it in my opinion, of course things get complicated with this due to northern parts of louth being historically in ulster

and
Cavan are the record winners of the Anglo Celt Cup with over double the number of titles as the next best.
Should be the last team to be ejected out of Ulster to be honest.

And just for the record, there arent 32 counties in the all Ireland football but 33, Kilkenny not entering currently and adding in New York and London.
Unless you have an EXACT 32 teams you do not have your 4x8 groups.
And if you dont then you will need a preliminary round of some sort.
And if you accept that, which is kindof undeniable, then you are only arguing about what sort of a preliminary you are going to have to make the 4x8.
Schedulewise your compactness of a pure 4x8 (through abolisheing provinces) is unachievable as the preliminary stage needs to be ran no matter what.

jj72

Grats wrote: »

The proposal re club championships makes sense. Both football and hurling should be completed before Christmas. That way all clubs from the different provinces would be on equal footing. Currently both the Leinster and Munster champions have to peak to win their provincial championship, then endure a long break over Christmas and then try to peak again in Jan/Feb.

I agree with the post that ALL Galway and Antrim teams should enter the Leinster championships.

How does that differ from Connaught and Ulster?

iDave

ballsymchugh wrote: »

i'm from longford, as is Eugene Magee. he's been championing the 4 areas of 8 for a few years now, and i think this kinda sounds like a climbdown to keep the provincial councils happy.

i'm all for it. longford aren't going to win a leinster senior title for a very long time. underage is going strong but can't just get over the last hurdle (2 leinster u21 finals in the past few years was excellent progress)

as one previous poster mentioned, the provinces are an unnecessary pain in the arse drawn up from ancient times. it may be romantic but it's non functional. four areas of 8 would make the season more compact without teams waiting from the end of may to the middle of july for their first qualifier match.

It is a climb-down, actually I referred to it as a cop out in my first post but you could argue he's just taking the pragmatic approach. Yes the provinces are ancient but realistically they aren't going anywhere. The councils are too powerful and much of the fan base want to keep them. With these proposals a county like Longford has the best of both worlds. Enter into the Leinster preliminary like you usually tend to do, if lose you might get a stab at Connacht then.
Actually my main fear is that many counties many try to engineer a defeat in the preliminaries to avoid Dublin, Meath, Kildare, Tyrone, Donegal etc so they can get an easier provincial QF against Waterford, Clare, Sligo, Leitrim etc. That's a real possibility and would be farcical

ArmaniJeanss

munchkin_utd wrote: »

And just for the record, there arent 32 counties in the all Ireland football but 33, Kilkenny not entering currently and adding in New York and London.
Unless you have an EXACT 32 teams you do not have your 4x8 groups.
And if you dont then you will need a preliminary round of some sort.
And if you accept that, which is kindof undeniable, then you are only arguing about what sort of a preliminary you are going to have to make the 4x8.
Schedulewise your compactness of a pure 4x8 (through abolisheing provinces) is unachievable as the preliminary stage needs to be ran no matter what.

This is bizarre logic - you appear to think that because 8-8-8-9 would need one prelim game that this so destroys its appeal that instead we should stick with the 7-6-9-11 format that we have at the moment?

Tom Joad

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Under this proposal four teams will play in two different provincial championships in a single year.
That four teams may be completely different the next year
If that is not tinkering I don’t know what it is.

Yes but the crucial point is that it leaves the provincial championship structures more or less intact - thus keeping the purists on the provincial councils appeased to a large extent. McGee knows that any more and they would have thrown the whole thing out without considering it.