Gun Substitution?

dc99

Hi,
I've had a look at the threads here, but cant seem to find the complete answer. If someone already covered my question in detail, please send a link.

I'm thinking of changing my pistol for a different make (both rim fire .22's).

I had no difficulty in getting the licence for my present gun, even though I hear of other people having trouble (not sure if this is just delays or refusals).

I'm thinking of changing to a Sig x-five, which seems to be quite popular and readily licenceable (in .22 calibre otherwise they wouldn't be selling).

My question is, is it simply filling out the substitution section in the FCA1 form (I think) and its a done deal. or can the Super decide he doesn't like the new one and refuses?
The added question is I would already have put in a termination of ownership - or a transfer of ownership to a RFD or even a another person (I'm guseeing it will be an TFD as it takes fo long to get an licence for the new owner it is easier to transfer to a RFD). OR is it all done at the same time?

What can I do, if I'm told I can't have the Sig in place of the present one? can I just cancel everything or will I have to apply for a new licence for the one I was supposed to be selling (aand transfered to the RFD)?

Also on the substitution, do I need to fill in everything - all sections? I have quite a generous allowance for rounds and don't want to loose any of it.

Or am I worrying about nothing???

rgd.

bravestar

dc99 wrote: »

Hi,
I've had a look at the threads here, but cant seem to find the complete answer. If someone already covered my question in detail, please send a link.

I'm thinking of changing my pistol for a different make (both rim fire .22's).

I had no difficulty in getting the licence for my present gun, even though I hear of other people having trouble (not sure if this is just delays or refusals).

I'm thinking of changing to a Sig x-five, which seems to be quite popular and readily licenceable (in .22 calibre otherwise they wouldn't be selling).

My question is, is it simply filling out the substitution section in the FCA1 form (I think) and its a done deal. or can the Super decide he doesn't like the new one and refuses?
The added question is I would already have put in a termination of ownership - or a transfer of ownership to a RFD or even a another person (I'm guseeing it will be an TFD as it takes fo long to get an licence for the new owner it is easier to transfer to a RFD). OR is it all done at the same time?

What can I do, if I'm told I can't have the Sig in place of the present one? can I just cancel everything or will I have to apply for a new licence for the one I was supposed to be selling (aand transfered to the RFD)?

Also on the substitution, do I need to fill in everything - all sections? I have quite a generous allowance for rounds and don't want to loose any of it.

Or am I worrying about nothing???

rgd.

Just give it a shot (no pun intended). You have nothing to lose. The only possible issue with the p226 x5 series is that they are readily convertible back to their original 9mm or 40s&w version as they don't start life as a dedicated rimfire.

That being said, there are plenty of then licenced out there.

dc99

Hi,

I may do that - give it a go, but my question is really what if it doesn't work and I've already signed over my current gun, or is that all done on the same form and if the sub doesn't go through then the original licensed gun remains on the licence?

Cass

dc99 wrote: »

My question is, is it simply filling out the substitution section in the FCA1 form (I think) and its a done deal. or can the Super decide he doesn't like the new one and refuses?

Simple answer - yes.

Long answer not really. The Super can refuse any license and leave you to go to court to get it. However the fact you already own/possess a pistol license shows you have good reason, and the SIG has a reputation of being a target pistol. IOW in my experience i've seen SIG (my own included) licensed much easier than other models of pistol regardless of caliber (such as Glock, etc).

So realistically he should have no reason to refuse once the reasons for having the gun are the same.

The added question is I would already have put in a termination of ownership - or a transfer of ownership to a RFD or even a another person (I'm guseeing it will be an TFD as it takes fo long to get an licence for the new owner it is easier to transfer to a RFD). OR is it all done at the same time?

The easiest, and safest bet is to leave your current pistol in an RFDs. For trade, storage or sale until your new one comes through. It's easier than trying to sell to someone, and time the licenses to coincide, and the Super will prefer all deals are done through an RFD.

What can I do, if I'm told I can't have the Sig in place of the present one? can I just cancel everything or will I have to apply for a new licence for the one I was supposed to be selling (aand transfered to the RFD)?

As above if granted the new one the old should already be in the RFDs. So just fill out an FCA1 tick substitution.

Also on the substitution, do I need to fill in everything - all sections? I have quite a generous allowance for rounds and don't want to loose any of it.

As for how much to fill out you need only fill out certain sections however recently i've found filling out the entire thing to much better as the Super cannot return the form seeking new information.

Lastly make sure you tick substitution on the FCA1 as it's a straight sub. IOW no fee.

Or am I worrying about nothing???

rgd.

Yes and no.

The system is so varying that even if it is a straight forward sub it can be refused. However hopefully common sense, and a fair application of the law prevails, and everything works out for you.

Cass

dc99 wrote: »

.......... what if it doesn't work and I've already signed over my current gun.........

This is why you should store in an RFd until your new one is passed.

.......... or is that all done on the same form .........

You apply for the new one on an FCA1 ticking the sub box, and the person buying your old pistol applies on an FCA1 ticking "New Application". Both of you do this through an RFD.

.......and if the sub doesn't go through then the original licensed gun remains on the licence?

If the sub does not go through your current license stays valid. So if you have it sold already the other person may not be able to license it as you are still licensed on it or you may need to cancel your license using an FCA2. If you decide to go ahead with sale.


This is why i suggest you apply before the person you have lined up to buy your one. Then decide whether to sell your old gun based on how your application goes.

dc99

Thanks Cass, its a little bit clearer. I do understand that we are working under a system that is not an exact science :-).

I agree that things are a little (a lot) smother going through an RFD (pardon my spelling glitch in original saying TFD - I think).

It is not a systems designed to be straight forward.

Also on top of this I will have to wait for at least 6 weeks having got the go ahead for the gun to get an import licence from Dublin and then for the vendor or wholesaler in Europe (Germany presumably) to get an export licence - then shipping time.

From what you say - am I correct in thinking that I do not need to terminate the current licence, Just leave it (my current gun) in with an RFD during the substitution (meaning it my original gun) is still licensed to me until I get the approval replacement licence for the 'new' sig?
THEN fill out a transfer to RFD to officially have it in storage as it is now not licensed to anyone, and NOT in my possession when I know the new (sig) has been approved). (I hope this is making sense as I write it down...).

Meaning the gun is still mine and still licensed to me UNTIL the sub is approved and transferred to new gun and technically not licensed (the original gun) because the Sub has occurred (But as it in with the RFD, unofficially first, I will not be braking any law as it is not in my possession? ).

Then once the licence is covering the Sig the RFD can get the importation done....?
I hope I'm not being thick with this as I need to understand thee sequence for the procedure.

Again the section on number of rounds, can I leave this blank and not mention the number I have on my licence already, or as you say should I really fill everything as a new licence, just make sure that substitution is ticked and details for replacement is completed alone with old gun details?

I have re-read this post and hope that some of the pieces I have in are making sense....lol

I presume that the RFD will be well able to advise me as well.
Thanks

Cass

When you do a substitution you are transferring your current license from the gun you have onto another. If successful your old firearm is no longer licensed and your new one is. Hence the reason the Gardaí prefer an RFD be involved.

After the sub, the old gun remains your property until you sell it. If you use it as a trade in then the RFD is now the owner. If you have not used it for a trade it is your property just you cannot take it from the RFDs as you have no license. It remains in his possession until you or another person licenses it.

Once the sub is done your license/ability to possess the old gun remains in tact for 14 days. This allows for a change of mind even after the sub/license is granted. So if you were granted the sub, but did not pay the fee the sub is revoked and the license for your old pistol remains valid.

I hope this makes sense. Might not be as clear as i could be.


Two pieces off advice as i've done this myself some years ago.

• DO NOT pay the full amount up front. If you do get a receipt stating a refund, minus any charges, is available if the license/sub is not granted. No point in having a brand new gun in an RFDs that you cannot license.
• Get a serial number, apply for the import now, and have the RFD getting the gun for you while you await the license. I done this, but can understand why you or some may not. If the dealer wants all the money up front before ordering in the gun with no promise/guarantee of a refund it the license is refused then you are left with a gun coming in you cannot own/possess.

The process, while the same, for an RFD to import is much quicker/easier for him than you. Let him deal with it and organise all necessary imports, etc. When i imported my last one he had it within 3 weeks.


Above all make sure you are getting a good deal. I've said this a couple of times, but please do not get caught as some have paying for a gun, then stuck as the license is refused, and then out the money because the dealer will not refund based on a refusal.

dc99

Cass wrote: »

When you do a substitution you are transferring your current license from the gun you have onto another. If successful your old firearm is no longer licensed and your new one is. Hence the reason the Gardaí prefer an RFD be involved.

After the sub, the old gun remains your property until you sell it. If you use it as a trade in then the RFD is now the owner. If you have not used it for a trade it is your property just you cannot take it from the RFDs as you have no license. It remains in his possession until you or another person licenses it.

Once the sub is done your license/ability to possess the old gun remains in tact for 14 days. This allows for a change of mind even after the sub/license is granted. So if you were granted the sub, but did not pay the fee the sub is revoked and the license for your old pistol remains valid.

I hope this makes sense. Might not be as clear as i could be.

Ah, this is exactly what I was wondering! 14 days that is.

Cass wrote: »

Two pieces off advice as i've done this myself some years ago.

• DO NOT pay the full amount up front. If you do get a receipt stating a refund, minus any charges, is available if the license/sub is not granted. No point in having a brand new gun in an RFDs that you cannot license.
• Get a serial number, apply for the import now, and have the RFD getting the gun for you while you await the license. I done this, but can understand why you or some may not. If the dealer wants all the money up front before ordering in the gun with no promise/guarantee of a refund it the license is refused then you are left with a gun coming in you cannot own/possess.

I thought there had to bean end user with a paid for licence? My last RFD said they couldn't get an import licence from the Dept Of J? even needed the recipt for the paid for licence..?

Cass wrote: »

The process, while the same, for an RFD to import is much quicker/easier for him than you. Let him deal with it and organise all necessary imports, etc. When i imported my last one he had it within 3 weeks.

Above all make sure you are getting a good deal. I've said this a couple of times, but please do not get caught as some have paying for a gun, then stuck as the license is refused, and then out the money because the dealer will not refund based on a refusal.

[/QUOTE]

Very good advice, I did pay a deposit previously, and understood the need. I would have not done so if all the money was up front. I think it depends on the RFD....But then if the gun (pistol) can't be imported till a licence is assigned to it then there should be no need to pay all up front.....(I think it is different for a rifle or other shooter, it seems to be pistols that have this quirk).

Anyway, thanks again for the goods info.

Cass

dc99 wrote: »

I thought there had to be an end user with a paid for licence? My last RFD said they couldn't get an import licence from the Dept Of J? even needed the recipt for the paid for licence..?

No RFD needs a person with a license (or without) to import firearms. If they did they there would only be sold firearms or traded guns in their shops.

An RFD can import a gun for the purpose of selling. Most will tell you they cannot as they don't want to be lumbered with a gun that the person no longer wants or cannot get a license for. That is why the very few that do import will ask for money up front. That way if you get refused they still have the sale, and then they store the gun for you to sell as second hand (even though it's brand new).

Others will tell you they cannot get import licenses or cannot do it until you have a license because they either cannot be arsed or they want no risk to themselves for the reasons outlined above.

dc99

I always thought that was a bit strange when I purchased last.

its a pain.

Cheers

cw67irl

What part of the Country are you in? I have an X5, It was a sub from my first pistol a few months into the licence, Had no problems at all but have been told some lads attempted to get them and Supers refused them, There are a couple of lads on here that have them so might be able to give an indication of Supers Opinions.

I had the same worry when i bought it but the sub went through in a couple of days!

It might be easier to get since its a sub and might not be scrutinised like a new app, No gurantees on that though!!

dc99

Hi,

Sorry for delay in reply, only saw the question today.

I'm in the south west.

Rgds.