Can you make gains without squats and deadlifts?

Da Optimist

I had a previous thread but people didn't really respond as they probably don't have much information on osteopenia and weight lifting. That is fair enough. I've decided to just keep it simple and ask a very basic question...

Can I build upper body muscle without squatting or deadlifting? These exercises have been omitted from my programme as of today. My new programme looks something like this:

Mon/Wed/Fri/Sat/Sun

Dumbell curl 3x12 reps (8kg)
Tricep dip 3x12 reps (8kg)
Chest press 3x12 (27.5kg)
Seated row 3x12 (35kg)
Shoulder Press 3x12 (15kg)
dead lift 3x12 (15kg)
Barbell squat 3x12 (15kg)
Lat pull down 3x12 (45kg)

Core
Straight leg curl 3x20
Basic Ab Curl 3x20

It's five days a week, which is a lot but in order to make gains I need to be consistant. I've two day's a week running included, so no days off

JohnnyChimpo

That's a seriously imbalanced bro workout you've got there

SeaDaily

Simple answer, yes of course you can.

SeaDaily

Da Optimist wrote: »

Can I build upper body muscle without squatting or deadlifting?

No one can ever build upper body muscle with squats btw. They are THE leg exercise.

Burkatron

Da Optimist wrote: »

I had a previous thread but people didn't really respond as they probably don't have much information on osteopenia and weight lifting. That is fair enough. I've decided to just keep it simple and ask a very basic question...

Can I build upper body muscle without squatting or deadlifting? These exercises have been omitted from my programme as of today. My new programme looks something like this:

Mon/Wed/Fri/Sat/Sun

Dumbell curl 3x12 reps (8kg)
Tricep dip 3x12 reps (8kg)
Chest press 3x12 (27.5kg)
Seated row 3x12 (35kg)
Shoulder Press 3x12 (15kg)
dead lift 3x12 (15kg)
Barbell squat 3x12 (15kg)
Lat pull down 3x12 (45kg)

Core
Straight leg curl 3x20
Basic Ab Curl 3x20

It's five days a week, which is a lot but in order to make gains I need to be consistant. I've two day's a week running included, so no days off

Ofcourse you can! It's not ideal but wont stop you making gains!
You're lack of recovery programmed will blunt your gains, I'd be more concerned with that! You can't squat or deadlift??

So you can't sit down & stand up or pick something off the floor? You should be able to do this with small weight! You want to keep the movement patterns at least! I really don't understand the logic of completely cutting them out!?

Da Optimist

How is it inbalanced?

I know I need to do something about the rest days..

Buckatron- I can't do any exercise which requires me to bend forward at the spine as I am at risk from injury.

SeaDaily

Da Optimist wrote: »

How is it inbalanced?

I know I need to do something about the rest days..

Buckatron- I can't do any exercise which requires me to bend forward at the spine as I am at risk from injury.

Are you doing all the exercises listed everyday?

Da Optimist

JohnnyChimpo wrote: »

That's a seriously imbalanced bro workout you've got there

Burkatron wrote: »

Ofcourse you can! It's not ideal but wont stop you making gains!
You're lack of recovery programmed will blunt your gains, I'd be more concerned with that! You can't squat or deadlift??

So you can't sit down & stand up or pick something off the floor? You should be able to do this with small weight! You want to keep the movement patterns at least! I really don't understand the logic of completely cutting them out!?

SeaDaily wrote: »

Are you doing all the exercises listed everyday?

Five days a week.

SeaDaily

Da Optimist wrote: »

Five days a week.

That doesnt answer my question im afraid.

In my opinion you are overdoing it if you are performing all the exercises you listed every time you go to the gym. I think you should either reduce the number of exercises you do each day and go less often or do a split routine whereby you dont do a full body workout everyday. As it is you are giving no time for any parts of your body to recover.

Burkatron

Da Optimist wrote: »

How is it inbalanced?

I know I need to do something about the rest days..

Buckatron- I can't do any exercise which requires me to bend forward at the spine as I am at risk from injury.

Ah right! If this is coming from a specialist fair enough!

But if you can sit down & stand up without a problem & bend over to pick some stuff off the ground I would be training those movement patterns to keep them easy! Ab crunches & leg raises will cause flexion of the spine so if that's the case they should be out aswell!??

I'd cut the weights down to 3 days! Recovery is as important as training, that's where the magic happens! If you don't want 2 complete days of rest hit a low intensity cardio session keeping your heart rate between 120-130 for 20-45 minutes! Active recovery is extremely effective! Are you allowed to sprint??

JJayoo

Da Optimist can your Osteopenia improve? can your bone density improve over time or is it something you will have to live with? and are you taking any supplements to help with bone density?

Da Optimist

SeaDaily wrote: »

That doesnt answer my question im afraid.

In my opinion you are overdoing it if you are performing all the exercises you listed every time you go to the gym. I think you should either reduce the number of exercises you do each day and go less often or do a split routine whereby you dont do a full body workout everyday. As it is you are giving no time for any parts of your body to recover.

Yes I was doing all exercises listed. The instructor just told me to do five days. I will bring it down to three.

Burkatron wrote: »

Ah right! If this is coming from a specialist fair enough!

But if you can sit down & stand up without a problem & bend over to pick some stuff off the ground I would be training those movement patterns to keep them easy! Ab crunches & leg raises will cause flexion of the spine so if that's the case they should be out aswell!??

I'd cut the weights down to 3 days! Recovery is as important as training, that's where the magic happens! If you don't want 2 complete days of rest hit a low intensity cardio session keeping your heart rate between 120-130 for 20-45 minutes! Active recovery is extremely effective! Are you allowed to sprint??

I've no problems sitting down or standing up. I am currently springing, it's not an issue. I've done ab crunches and leg raises without any problem but they are out too. Although it's only my body weight involved in them, so it shouldn't make a difference. I ususally run 3 times weekly at a speed of 12-14 on the threadmill for 35 mins at a time.

JJayoo wrote: »

Da Optimist can your Osteopenia improve? can your bone density improve over time or is it something you will have to live with? and are you taking any supplements to help with bone density?

Yes it will improve if I do the appropriate exercise and take the supplements. I currently am.

JJayoo

Do you take Vitamin K2? My aunt has osteoporosis and has found good results with K2. If you search Pub Med you will see countless studies on the use of K2 to improve bone density.

Da Optimist

I'll look it up. Thanks Jjayoo.

Filibuster

You should add calf raises, leg curls, and leg extensions which can all be done seated.

You could also try dumbbell squats, stepups, and lunges. The weight would be held at your side rather then weighted on your spine like using a barbell.

Sangre

Da Optimist wrote: »

Yes I was doing all exercises listed. The instructor just told me to do five days. I will bring it down to three.

The problem isn't training five days a week, its doing the same exercises five days a week. Your muscles can't repair and grow at an optimal level if they are constantly being stressed.

Your workout is very imbalanced. Can you do any back exercsies where you don't bend e.g. pull-up, row?

papu

split squats are great , should be do-able since you aren't loading the spine.

Strengthening your core will be a good way to protect your back in the long run , maybe taking up something like pilates?

ThunbergsAreGo

Interesting thread in the a similar boat with a quad/vmo injury at present so going all upper body

Mellor

Da Optimist wrote: »

Buckatron- I can't do any exercise which requires me to bend forward at the spine as I am at risk from injury.

You aren't actually supposed to bend your lower spine when squatting or dead lifting. The movement comes from the hips.
Obviously in not suggesting you disregard medical advice but if the aim is improved bone/joint health then it might be worth considering if improving mobility could reduce the risk of injury.

Frank Bullitt

SeaDaily wrote: »

No one can ever build upper body muscle with squats btw. They are THE leg exercise.

Squats are far more than a leg exercise, they build the entire body.

SeaDaily

Gintonious wrote: »

Squats are far more than a leg exercise, they build the entire body.

Op was suggesting that squats are an upper body exercise which they aren't. Squats do not work the chest, shoulders or arms. If you think they do then you are doing them wrong.

EdenHazard

Gintonious wrote: »

Squats are far more than a leg exercise, they build the entire body.

broscience 101

Thephantomsmask

Hansen S, Kvorning T, Kjaer M, Sjøgaard G. The
effect of short-term strength training on human
skeletal muscle: The importance of
physiologically elevated hormone levels. Scand J
Med Sci Sports. 2001 Dec;11(6):347-54. PubMed
PMID: 11782267. google found the abstract:
The effect of strength training and endogenously
elevated hormone levels (plasma testosterone,
growth hormone (GH) and cortisol) was studied in
16 young untrained males, divided into an arm
only training group, A, and a leg plus arm training group, LA, in order to increase circulating levels of
anabolic hormones. Both groups performed the
same one-sided arm training for 9 weeks, twice a
week. Group A trained only one arm (AT), the
contralateral arm serving as control (AC), whereas
group LA additionally trained their legs following the training of the one arm (LAT), with the
contralateral arm serving as control (LAC). In spite
of the attempt to match the two groups, the initial
isometric arm strength was 20-25% lower for
group LA compared to group A (significant for the
arm to be trained). Isometric strength increased significantly in LAT and LAC by 37% and 10%,
respectively, while the 9% and 2% increases in
AT and AC, respectively, remained insignificant.
Isokinetic strength increased at one out of three
velocities tested for the trained arm relative to the
untrained arm in both group A and group LA (P<0.05). Functional strength increased
significantly by 20% in LAT, 18% in LAC, 19% in
AT, and 17% in AC. Hormonal responses were
monitored during the first and last training
sessions. Resting hormone levels remained
unchanged for both groups. However, during the first training session plasma testosterone as well
as plasma cortisol increased significantly in group
LA but not in group A. Plasma GH rose in all
exercise tests, except during the last test in group
LA, but was significantly higher in group LA than
in group A in the first training session. In conclusion, a larger relative increase in isometric
strength was found in the group having the highest
hormonal response. However, due to the initial
difference in isometric strength caution must be
taken with the interpretation of this finding, which
may only indicate a possible link between anabolic hormones and muscle strength with
training.

Theresalwaysone

That abstract doesnt really confirm or deny anything.

You'll make gains in whatever you train and with calories.

If you want bigger arms. Train arms.
If you want a better DL. Then DL.
If you want a better bench. Bench.

If anything can be taken from that study it would be that training more muscle fiber means a better response overall. It doesnt necessarily have to be legs.

I think the 'obession' with advising people to squat for 'overall body gains' is a culmination of a few things.

Trainers noticing huge leg training deprivation in clients and dangling this carrot as a motivator.

Squats being awesome in general.

You 'look' better when you have decent legs.

Your overall performance will increase with bigger basic barbell strength.

I also think that the researchers chose arms and legs in this because they are completely seperate. If they used calf raises and bench press as opposed to arms and legs Id wager the study results with proportinality to muscle fiber worked would be similar but no one ever says "Bench Press for bigger calves".

Thephantomsmask

Sorry on the mobile so just threw that up in response to the broscience comment. No, I agree it doesn't have to be legs specifically but as the biggest muscle groups they are going to have the biggest bang for their buck in terms of GH stimulation. Obviously train arms = bigger arms regardless as you said. Perhaps recruiting more muscles fibres would get the same results but quicker? Certainly I've found myself and seen it mentioned a few times in the daily achievement thread that even if I haven't trained a specific lift in a while (in my case bench press due to focussing on oly lifting) that it has gone up when I go back to it.

Sangre

Thephantomsmask wrote: »

Sorry on the mobile so just threw that up in response to the broscience comment. No, I agree it doesn't have to be legs specifically but as the biggest muscle groups they are going to have the biggest bang for their buck in terms of GH stimulation. Obviously train arms = bigger arms regardless as you said. Perhaps recruiting more muscles fibres would get the same results but quicker? Certainly I've found myself and seen it mentioned a few times in the daily achievement thread that even if I haven't trained a specific lift in a while (in my case bench press due to focussing on oly lifting) that it has gone up when I go back to it.

I am not disagreeing with you in general but that can be due to other matters not just "muscle stimulation" e.g. increased mass moves mass better.

Frank Bullitt

EdenHazard wrote: »

broscience 101

Got my best gains all over when I put more emphasis on squatting, no "broscience" there mate.

http://fitness.mercola.com/sites/fitness/archive/2012/05/25/darin-steen-demonstrates-the-perfect-squat.aspx

Number 1 on that list.

SeaDaily

Gintonious wrote: »

Got my best gains all over when I put more emphasis on squatting, no "broscience" there mate.

http://fitness.mercola.com/sites/fitness/archive/2012/05/25/darin-steen-demonstrates-the-perfect-squat.aspx

Number 1 on that list.

That is literally the definition of broscience. Basing advice on your perceived success with a particular exercise or routine. Just because you got your "best gains" when you put emphasis on squats does not mean it will work for others. Also you cannot infer that squats were the sole reason for the change. Perhaps when you placed an emphasis on squats you also placed a greater emphasis on your diet and starting taking working out more seriously. There are too many other factors at play here, so when you say "look i did squats and got bigger so you should do them too" it is nothing but broscience.

The link you provided is also totally based on total broscience. The references they provide do not back up their claims.

shampooman

If you want to build muscle then put tension on the muscle. For example if you want a bigger bicep when curling focus on the negative (lowering the barbell to start position) try to aim for a 4 second negative. When the barbell is in start position contract triceps and lift the weight and squeeze. Put emphasis on the bicep and make it do the work. It's all about putting the targeted muscle under tension. Bicep just an example every muscle group can be targeted and can be put under tension. Believe it or not when building muscle you don't need to use a heavy weight - the muscle has no clue what you are lifting it just needs to be worked right. Also obviously eating right and sleep are just as important

If you want to gain strength then ignore the above paragraph. I gained muscle through time under tension approach and yup looked grand but there was no real strength behind it. These days I focus on deadlifts, squats, front squats, overhead squats, military press, thrusters, pull ups etc As a result from focusing on strength ( and conditioning ) I have gotten a lot stronger and continued to build muscle. Squats and deadlifts are in my opinion vital exercises when in comes to strength work. Also I agree with Gintonious that if you do squats within your program then you will see greater results all round ( not just lower body ) Remember hip joint below knee joint

Anyways in my opinion OP you should listen to your doctor, if he/she has ruled out a certain exercise then do not do it. You need to rest and you should also focus on your lower body too. Body weight exercises can be a great place to start to get you strong and yes also to build muscle.

In these sorts of topics everyone has an opinion and what works for one person may not work for another. At the very least your doing something and that's a great start As you gain more experience you will change your views and most likely alter your program in a big way - we have all been there. Have fun, train hard, eat well and get plenty rest!

Frank Bullitt

SeaDaily wrote: »

That is literally the definition of broscience. Basing advice on your perceived success with a particular exercise or routine. Just because you got your "best gains" when you put emphasis on squats does not mean it will work for others. Also you cannot infer that squats were the sole reason for the change. Perhaps when you placed an emphasis on squats you also placed a greater emphasis on your diet and starting taking working out more seriously. There are too many other factors at play here, so when you say "look i did squats and got bigger so you should do them too" it is nothing but broscience.

The link you provided is also totally based on total broscience. The references they provide do not back up their claims.

Hit a nerve, have I?

Anyway, to the OP, plenty of bang for your buck exercises will get you upper body muscle. Don't fret!

Theresalwaysone

Gintonious wrote: »

Hit a nerve, have I?

Anyway, to the OP, plenty of bang for your buck exercises will get you upper body muscle. Don't fret!

He is right tbh. There could be so many other reasons that you saw better overall gains that narrowing it down to just squatting is ridiculous.

SeaDaily

Gintonious wrote: »

Hit a nerve, have I?

No, I was just responding to your post. Good way to avoid actually backing up your previous post by trying to change the topic.

flaghead

Do 10 mins of research first before you make a crap routine that you follow 5 days a week lol

If you want some gains: Go on bodybuilding.com and have a look through beginners routines...

You could follow this, just ignore the exercises which you cannot do.
http://www.simplyshredded.com/mega-feature-layne-norton-training-series-full-powerhypertrophy-routine-updated-2011.html

Or google bro split and follow that program.