RIP Nelson Mandela

boomchicawawa

The world has lost one of its best sons. RIP

pedroeibar1

Agreed. But he deserves a much better legacy.RIP

tac foley

I'm in two minds about quite how much I should mourn the death of such a man - much like watching Justin Bieber going over a cliff in my new Ferrari.

I have a few friends from the RSA - driven out by the antics of his followers - who will be getting wrecked tonight in celebration.

tac

Ozymandiaz

A truly great humanitarian and a remarkable leader. The world needs people like Nelson Mandela but very, very rarely manages to get one.

RIP

pedroeibar1

tac foley wrote: »

I'm in two minds about quite how much I should mourn the death of such a man - much like watching my Justin Bieber going over a cliff in my new Ferrari.

I have a few friends from the RSA - driven out by the antics of his followers - who will be getting wrecked tonight in celebration.

tac

I can understand that, but 'TAB'. He was a very good guy who was too easily manipulated IMO. The single biggest mistake was for the ANC not to put an alternative education system in place when the civil disobedience campaign was initiated. That led to a generation of illiterates. The raw greed and corruption in Africa is scary. Poor Mandela was above that and found difficulty in believing that it was happening.

“We spoke and acted as if, given the opportunity for self-government, we would quickly create utopias. Instead injustice, even tyranny, is rampant."
Julius Kambarage Nyerere, as quoted in David Lamb's The Africans, New York 1985. (as I quoted here )

TheHighest92

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Yl_R0BIgAs

RTE were quick off the mark with the short documentary.

However they mention that his name is English, Nelson actually derives from son of Niall

Ipso

TheHighest92 wrote: »

However they mention that his name is English, Nelson actually derives from son of Niall

God they're reaching. I hope the don't spell the surname McDella.

HansHolzel

tac foley wrote: »

I'm in two minds about quite how much I should mourn the death of such a man - much like watching my Justin Bieber going over a cliff in my new Ferrari.

I have a few friends from the RSA - driven out by the antics of his followers - who will be getting wrecked tonight in celebration.

tac

Sick, Blimpish comment

Santa Cruz

HansHolzel wrote: »

Sick, Blimpish comment

Any fair minder observer of South Africal will have to acknowledge that the ANC government and it's supporters have immense problems with corruption by political leaders ,abuse of power, abuse of human rights and violent crime. Who was it killed the striking workers recently in South Africa?

It is all very well praising Mandela but please don't fool yourself that present day South Africa is a Utopian paradise for South Africans.

HansHolzel

That has nothing to do with the apartheid nostalgia reeking from his comment.

Ozymandiaz

This thread is about Nelson Mandela ... not his followers, or the ANC, or the RSA, or anybody's mates.

The RSA might not be a bed of roses for the majority of its people, black or white, but tell me a country that is. It could have been a whole lot worse for a lot of people but it is certainly a better place than it ever once was.

Mandela was a wise man of enormous integrity.

TwoGallants

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Any fair minder observer of South Africal will have to acknowledge that the ANC government and it's supporters have immense problems with corruption by political leaders ,abuse of power, abuse of human rights and violent crime. Who was it killed the striking workers recently in South Africa?

It is all very well praising Mandela but please don't fool yourself that present day South Africa is a Utopian paradise for South Africans.

South Africa is no utopia, but consider the following:

*When apartheid ended, the overwhelming majority of the nation's wealth was in the hands of a small minority of the population.
*This minority had systematically exploited, abused, and discriminated against a huge majority of the population.
*Mandela had to deal with radical black nationalists, communists, and morons who wanted a reverse apartheid system applied against whites.

Its safe to say that the reason South Africa didn't fall into the almost inevitable post colonial quagmire that so defined the rest of Africa was because of Nelson Mandela. Instead of persecuting the people who wreaked havoc on his countrymen, he forgave them. Instead of turfing out the whites and nationalising all of their land, he instituted a very moderate policy of black empowerment (Which has since been somewhat abused, but nothing like the scale of say Zimbabwe)

Compare Zimbabwe (or old Rhodesia) with South Africa. Although the white minority was much smaller, both countries had similar economic systems by the time their respective racist regimes died out. Overall wealth was similar etc. Now Zimbabwe is one of the most impoverished countries in the world. In a country with near universal literacy, a good health system, and a large food exporter, it became a farcical banana republic.

One man was responsible for that - Robert Mugabe.

South Africa had Mandela.

History will judge him just as fondly as the hyperbolic obituaries have.

HansHolzel

Pilger seems disappointed Mandela didn't do a Mugabe on it...

http://johnpilger.com/articles/mandelas-greatness-may-be-secured-but-not-his-legacy

tac foley

TwoGallants wrote: »

South Africa had Mandela.

...and F W de Klerk.

tac

jonniebgood1

tac foley wrote: »

...and F W de Klerk.

tac

Wow.
de klerk was the end of a line of apartheid leaders. I.e. he was part of the problem in apartheid years.

tac foley

De Klerk is best known for brokering the end of apartheid, South Africa's racial segregation policy, and supporting the transformation of South Africa into a multi-racial democracy by entering into the negotiations that resulted in all citizens, including the country's black majority, having equal voting and other rights. He won the Félix Houphouët-Boigny Peace Prize in 1991, the Prince of Asturias Award in 1992 and the Nobel Peace Prize in 1993 along with Nelson Mandela for his role in the ending of apartheid.

Without his full support, the convicted terrorist Mr Mandela would have been p*ssing up a rope.

tac

Fratton Fred

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Wow.
de klerk was the end of a line of apartheid leaders. I.e. he was part of the problem in apartheid years.

FW De Klerk came to power pretty much on the anti apartheid ticket iirc. His election to president was seen as the beginning of the end to apartheid.

HansHolzel

tac foley wrote: »

the convicted terrorist Mr Mandela

tac

Apartheid nostalgia should have no place on Boards.

robp

HansHolzel wrote: »

Apartheid nostalgia should have no place on Boards.

Just because people reject violence as means to obtain reform does not mean they deny the need for reform in the first place.

HansHolzel

The poster flagged a celebratory binge by his mates on the news of Mandela's death and referred to him as a "convicted terrorist" - convicted by a KKK court, basically - so I'll hold off on giving him the benefit of the doubt if you don't mind.

robp

HansHolzel wrote: »

The poster flagged a celebratory binge by his mates on the news of Mandela's death and referred to him as a "convicted terrorist" - convicted by a KKK court, basically - so I'll hold off on giving him the benefit of the doubt if you don't mind.

Well you need not resort to relying on the US watch list. The matter is did he or did he not support violence.You can't just dismiss criticism as apartheid nostalgia. Being a terrorist is a pretty objective thing. I would praise Mandela myself, as a leader with civilian blood on his hands ultimately he walked away from violence and indeed left wing extremism.

HansHolzel

robp wrote: »

Being a terrorist is a pretty objective thing.

Yeah, it's the one with the small bomb.

Plus you ignored the issue of getting drunk to celebrate the man's death, which the poster was basically cheering.

boomchicawawa

I have found many instances were one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. For example, there were many who came to power in Israel in 1948 whom the British would have labelled 'terrorists', there is a grave commemorating a young man in my local cemetery, who was in the British army and shot dead there in the 1940's. We also have members of our Dail (Collins, Adams, Sands, etc etc )over the years accused of the same thing by the British and indeed Irish governments of the day to name but two.

In relation to Mandela, the word 'terrorist' doesn't spring to mind at all. When a majority is treated so shamefully like second class citizens in their own land, its tantamount to a crime against humanity IMO, and desperate people resort to desperate measures unfortunately. But I would however, always advocate the ballot box over the gun.

tac foley

...or the 'flaming necklace', the preferred method invented by Winnie Mandela to pursuade recalcitrant supporters.

tac

robp

boomchicawawa wrote: »

I have found many instances were one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. For example, there were many who came to power in Israel in 1948 whom the British would have labelled 'terrorists', there is a grave commemorating a young man in my local cemetery, who was in the British army and shot dead there in the 1940's. We also have members of our Dail (Collins, Adams, Sands, etc etc )over the years accused of the same thing by the British and indeed Irish governments of the day to name but two.

In relation to Mandela, the word 'terrorist' doesn't spring to mind at all. When a majority is treated so shamefully like second class citizens in their own land, its tantamount to a crime against humanity IMO, and desperate people resort to desperate measures unfortunately. But I would however, always advocate the ballot box over the gun.

In the Middle East the same would be said about Al Qaida. In modern day terms the founding fathers of the US would be considered terrorists. I am not trying to say these founding fathers were wrong but a spade should be called a spade. We should de-sentimentalise these terms and honestly analyse these periods as right or wrong. Its no good wrapping them up in blind patriotic terms.

jonniebgood1

tac foley wrote: »

De Klerk is best known for brokering the end of apartheid, South Africa's racial segregation policy, and supporting the transformation of South Africa into a multi-racial democracy by entering into the negotiations that resulted in all citizens, including the country's black majority, having equal voting and other rights. He won the Félix Houphouët-Boigny Peace Prize in 1991, the Prince of Asturias Award in 1992 and the Nobel Peace Prize in 1993 along with Nelson Mandela for his role in the ending of apartheid.

Without his full support, the convicted terrorist Mr Mandela would have been p*ssing up a rope.

tac

Just to clarify, is this a tacit nod of approval towards apartheid?
I am asking as I don't want to assume it incorrectly as that would be unfair but at this juncture you should clarify.

Regarding sharing of nobel prizes I do not see what that proves.

Your final point is ridiculous. de Klerk and his cronies were what kept apartheid going for so long.

jonniebgood1

Fratton Fred wrote: »

FW De Klerk came to power pretty much on the anti apartheid ticket iirc. His election to president was seen as the beginning of the end to apartheid.

Naw- De Klerk held several powerful cabinet roles through the 70's and 80's strongly supporting racial segregation in universities in his role in education. Apartheid was ending whoever was in charge largely due to sanctions and international pressure.

HansHolzel

If anyone really wants an independent view of the present South Africa, google articles by Rian Malan. You won't always agree with him but he's independent, fearless and can spot bullsh*t a mile off. Plus he did write My Traitor's Heart.

tac foley

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Just to clarify, is this a tacit nod of approval towards apartheid? Your final point is ridiculous. de Klerk and his cronies were what kept apartheid going for so long.

You are very much mistaken. I almost got married to a black girl, and I grew up in a multi-cultural and multi-coloured society. Making accusations like this do you no favours. As a Jew I am particularly and personally well-informed about racial prejudice and its practices, and apartheid is as abhorrent to me as it is to you.

It is generally agreed among those who dish out the Nobel Peace prizes to those deemed worthy to receive them that Mr de Klerk was instrumental in bringing about the political will in RSA that ended apartheid.

You are telling me that they were all wrong or misled?

tac

jonniebgood1

tac foley wrote: »

You are very much mistaken. I almost got married to a black girl, and I grew up in a multi-cultural and multi-coloured society. Making accusations like this do you no favours. As a Jew I am particularly and personally well-informed about racial prejudice and its practices, and apartheid is as abhorrent to me as it is to you.

It is generally agreed among those who dish out the Nobel Peace prizes to those deemed worthy to receive them that Mr de Klerk was instrumental in bringing about the political will in RSA that ended apartheid.

You are telling me that they were all wrong or misled?

tac

Obama got a nobel prize at the same time as his troops were in non American territory. That says enough about that 'prize''.

Asking you to clarify is not a mistake nor an accusation. It was a means to avoiding a mistake. You're to quick to jump the gun on this as my question was based on your own lack of clarity.

Coles

tac foley wrote: »

As a Jew I am particularly and personally well-informed about racial prejudice and its practices, and apartheid is as abhorrent to me as it is to you.

I don't understand your point. Being a Jew might make you well informed about racial prejudice and it's practices, but it certainly doesn't follow that Apartheid would be abhorrent to you. Apartheid is still quite obviously the social policy in place in Israel, for example.

It is also worth remembering that Israel was South Africa's principle source for weapons to prop up the Apartheid regime, including the development of Nuclear Weapons and other weapons of mass destruction.

Years after the collapse of Apartheid it is interesting to note that Israel are snubbing the Mandela funeral by sending no dignitaries. Link

Being Jewish clearly doesn't naturally make Apartheid abhorrent, does it?

tac foley

I do not now, and never have, supported any form of racial segregation or colour bar. The fact that I was looking forward to spending the rest of my life with a black girl should have been your answer. It never happened because her extended family objected to her marrying a Jew, and she gave in to their wishes.

Just what part of 'apartheid is as abhorrent to me as it is to you' is not clear?

Are you putting me on trial for being less than hysterically grief-stricken because a a former terrorist-become-statesman [aged 95] has died?

tac

Fratton Fred

Coles wrote: »

I don't understand your point. Being a Jew might make you well informed about racial prejudice and it's practices, but it certainly doesn't follow that Apartheid would be abhorrent to you. Apartheid is still quite obviously the social policy in place in Israel, for example.

It is also worth remembering that Israel was South Africa's principle source for weapons to prop up the Apartheid regime, including the development of Nuclear Weapons and other weapons of mass destruction.

Years after the collapse of Apartheid it is interesting to note that Israel are snubbing the Mandela funeral by sending no dignitaries. Link

Being Jewish clearly doesn't naturally make Apartheid abhorrent, does it?

And being Jewish does not make someone Israeli

tac foley

Fratton Fred wrote: »

And being Jewish does not make someone Israeli

Sorry, Fred, but it does. ALL Jews have a right to residence and Israeli nationality by default. I did my aliyah when I left school, but, after almost for years of hydroponics, tomatoes and soft fruit, came back to UK and joined the Army.

However, this is not MY story, but that of the late Mr Mandela, to whom our thoughts and prayers, one way or another, should be directed today.

So, if we can now return to him, and ignore the sentiments of a no-account Jew for whom he was just another terrorist-turned statesman, rather like Messrs McGuiness and Adams, I'd be very grateful.

tac

HansHolzel

tac foley wrote: »

ALL Jews have a right to residence and Israeli nationality by default.

You have no right to steal someone else's land, as they've been doing since 1948.

That's why Israel has assumed the deeply-unpopular-country mantle of the old South Africa.

The Palestinians gassed no Jews.

Coles

tac foley wrote: »

Just what part of 'apartheid is as abhorrent to me as it is to you' is not clear?

But that's not what you said. You said 'AS A JEW, apartheid is as abhorrent to me as it is to you'. I merely pointed out that being Jewish does not necessarily make you 'abhorrent to apartheid', and indeed in the case of the State of Israel the exact opposite was true.

Are you putting me on trial for being less than hysterically grief-stricken because a a former terrorist-become-statesman [aged 95] has died?

tac

I haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about now. Perhaps you are dealing with issues that shouldn't be part of this thread.

Coles

Fratton Fred wrote: »

And being Jewish does not make someone Israeli

lt actually does, but you seem to have missed the point entirely.

Fratton Fred

Coles wrote: »

lt actually does, but you seem to have missed the point entirely.

No, being Jewish gives someone the right to be Israeli.

Coles

Fratton Fred wrote: »

No, being Jewish gives someone the right to be Israeli.

Still missing the point.

Fratton Fred

Coles wrote: »

Still missing the point.

Nope, just being pedantic.

barney4001

I see the Lord Mayor of Lisburn Co Antrim refused to open a book of condolences for Mr Mandela, perhaps she might have been better trying to walk in his footsteps

Santa Cruz

HansHolzel wrote: »

You have no right to steal someone else's land, as they've been doing since 1948.

That's why Israel has assumed the deeply-unpopular-country mantle of the old South Africa.

The Palestinians gassed no Jews.

The usual ignorance of the factors which led to the creation of the State of Israel.