whats the rules re ditch removal clearing scrub

st1979

well whats tge story with clearing scrub. I
Have 3 acres that runs along boundary down a bank. It was at one stage a field of its own. Can I clear it. Can I clear the scrub down to the boundary leaving the 'ditch' just it was reduced to 2m thick instead of 40m thick it is presently. Not in reps etc but get sfp

jersey101

st1979 wrote: »

well whats tge story with clearing scrub. I
Have 3 acres that runs along boundary down a bank. It was at one stage a field of its own. Can I clear it. Can I clear the scrub down to the boundary leaving the 'ditch' just it was reduced to 2m thick instead of 40m thick it is presently. Not in reps etc but get sfp

clear away and then claim it. We had ditches here growing out 10 meters into fields, cleaned them off and clained it back as land we were farming. Took abit if work but got there

Conmaicne Mara

As long as you do the clearing outside of the bird nesting season I can't think of anything to stop you clearing scrub.

Capercaille

It's ridiculous that people get financially rewarded (SFP)for destroying a vital habitat like scrub.

jersey101

Capercaille wrote: »

It's ridiculous that people get financially rewarded (SFP)for destroying a vital habitat like scrub.

a habit that for vermin? I wouldnt call that a vital habitat

Conmaicne Mara

Capercaille wrote: »

It's ridiculous that people get financially rewarded (SFP)for destroying a vital habitat like scrub.

Terrible how Farm payments promote Farming instead of dereliction of Farm land alright.

Capercaille

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Terrible how Farm payments promote Farming instead of dereliction of Farm land alright.

REPS paid farmers for wildlife friendly farming on one hand and on the other hand farmers are rewardede by destroying scrub and helping cause declines in birds such as twite, whitethroat.

Conmaicne Mara

Capercaille wrote: »

REPS paid farmers for wildlife friendly farming on one hand and on the other hand farmers are rewardede by destroying scrub and helping cause declines in birds such as twite, whitethroat.

SFP isn't REPS.

Capercaille

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

SFP isn't REPS.

I know

Conmaicne Mara

Capercaille wrote: »

I know

Then you know land must be in eligible condition for SFP, which means no scrub as scrub is ineligible.

jersey101

Capercaille wrote: »

REPS paid farmers for wildlife friendly farming on one hand and on the other hand farmers are rewardede by destroying scrub and helping cause declines in birds such as twite, whitethroat.

so driving around the country you would prefere see fields with ditches over grown and bits of scrub in corners of fields and not being used to its full potential instead of nice green fields full of lush grass and stock thriving??

Capercaille

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Then you know land must be in eligible condition for SFP, which means no scrub as scrub is ineligible.

Yes thus farmers are financially encouraged to destroy a vital habitat. No wonder birds like twite are on a verge of extinction in Ireland.

Curlew

Be sure site is not within SAC(Special Area of Conservation) details of which are viewable on NPWS website.:pac:

Conmaicne Mara

Capercaille wrote: »

Yes thus farmers are financially encouraged to destroy a vital habitat. No wonder birds like twite are on a verge of extinction in Ireland.

Farmers, via the SFP, are being paid to farm. Scrub doesn't contribute to farming in the same league as grassland does, therefore in a farming sense it is verboten.

If you want farmers to farm for the birds, you'll need an environmental scheme orders of magnitude better than AEOS.

Thems the facts.

Capercaille

Curlew wrote: »

Be sure site is not within SAC(Special Area of Conservation) details of which are viewable on NPWS website.:pac:

Unfortunately SAC's designations don't stop habitat destruction, because they are widely ignored.

amacca

Capercaille wrote: »

It's ridiculous that people get financially rewarded (SFP)for destroying a vital habitat like scrub.

Its also ridiculous that they held back my payment because I overclaimed by 0.01 of a hectare (despite the fact it was ok for the last 4 years and I made sure I underclaimed).....a difference btw that results in an overpayment by them to me of around 20cent of a measly 2k in disadvantaged the only thing I could get because theres no sfp for me due to the fact I didn't rent the lad from parents for a nominal value rather than what I actually did which was pay them market rate etc etc...I mean ffs its just one thing after another...household charge, increase prsi, water charge, insurance going up, wages go down, need a trailer license to tow a trailer youve been towing for the last 10 years without incident, new rules on commercial testing, do you have a bait point there a useless time consuming ****wit safety statement here ....pay out here, pay out there..get less here, get less there...and then you want to get rid of some briars/scrub on your land and of course somebody has an issue...

I'm so pissed off at this stage I'm off to destroy 0.01 of hectare of "bird habitat" anywhere I can find it on my land and the white throated whatever can go <modsnip> itself because that seems to be the attitude of almost every other state body or individual in this country towards me.

If you want to talk about ridiculous, take a look at the way "common sense" or even the slightest sense of decency utterly fails to materialise when it comes to our betters in govt etc - time they realised they work for us and not the other way around I'm also sick of having it proved to me day in day out that everything is protected except seemingly me.....if there was any fairness in this country I would have a lot more time to think about ways to co -exist with protected species....as it is I'm only able to think about how to survive as an individual by defending myself against the next attack/rule/regulation resulting in hands being tied further behind ones back while ones wallet is being relieved of its raison detre.

foxylock

amacca wrote: »

Its also ridiculous that they held back my payment because I overclaimed by 0.01 of a hectare (despite the fact it was ok for the last 4 years and I made sure I underclaimed).....a difference btw that results in an overpayment by them to me of around 20cent of a measly 2k in disadvantaged the only thing I could get because theres no sfp for me due to the fact I didn't rent the lad from parents for a nominal value rather than what I actually did which was pay them market rate etc etc...I mean ffs its just one thing after another...household charge, increase prsi, water charge, insurance going up, wages go down, need a trailer license to tow a trailer youve been towing for the last 10 years without incident, new rules on commercial testing, do you have a bait point there a useless time consuming ****wit safety statement here ....pay out here, pay out there..get less here, get less there...and then you want to get rid of some briars/scrub on your land and of course somebody has an issue...

I'm so pissed off at this stage I'm off to destroy 0.01 of hectare of "bird habitat" anywhere I can find it on my land and the white throated whatever can go <modsnip> itself because that seems to be the attitude of almost every other state body or individual in this country towards me.

If you want to talk about ridiculous, take a look at the way "common sense" or even the slightest sense of decency utterly fails to materialise when it comes to our betters in govt etc - time they realised they work for us and not the other way around I'm also sick of having it proved to me day in day out that everything is protected except seemingly me.....if there was any fairness in this country I would have a lot more time to think about ways to co -exist with protected species....as it is I'm only able to think about how to survive as an individual by defending myself against the next attack/rule/regulation resulting in hands being tied further behind ones back while ones wallet is being relieved of its raison detre.

but but but what about the birds?:D:D:D

amacca

foxylock wrote: »

but but but what about the birds?:D:D:D

I think I have made my feelings about our avian friends quite clear. As far as I'm concerned they can nest in derek mooneys no doubt blue tit over ran scrub infested back garden and drive him more childishly mental than he acts on that radio programme of his.

foxylock

amacca wrote: »

I think I have made my feelings about our avian friends quite clear. As far as I'm concerned they can nest in derek mooneys no doubt blue tit over ran scrub infested back garden and drive him more childishly mental than he acts on that radio programme of his.

Better not let santy's robin hear you!!

amacca

foxylock wrote: »

Better not let santy's robin hear you!!

Don't talk to me about those preening overbearing red breasted smug bastards hopping around my garden like they are cock of the walk.

Think they are better than every other bird because they are so god damned pretty, bah! from hells heart I stab at them!

Conmaicne Mara

foxylock wrote: »

Better not let santy's robin hear you!!

Don't mention the poor Wren what ever you do.

Viewtodiefor

Conmaicne Mara wrote: »

Don't mention the poor Wren what ever you do.

Jesus the auld lad cut the hedge round d house n never saw a wren in ages but their fckin everywhere now ! Def not endangered here anyway !

Farmer

Capercaille wrote: »

It's ridiculous that people get financially rewarded (SFP)for destroying a vital habitat like scrub.

That is strictly not true. As amacca has pointed out above, we are actually penalized for not removing it

It's all about "tick box" administration rather than joined up thinking

foxylock

amacca wrote: »

Don't talk to me about those preening overbearing red breasted smug bastards hopping around my garden like they are cock of the walk.

Think they are better than every other bird because they are so god damned pretty, bah! from hells heart I stab at them!

Careful now you'll look under the tree on christmas morning and find ................. an INSPECTION.:eek:

amacca

foxylock wrote: »

Careful now you'll look under the tree on christmas morning and find ................. an INSPECTION.:eek:

The inspector will have to make a note of the poor boundaries in the top meadow as the neigbours cross bull bears down on him/her.

Brown Podzol

amacca wrote: »

Its also ridiculous that they held back my payment because I overclaimed by 0.01 of a hectare (despite the fact it was ok for the last 4 years and I made sure I underclaimed).....a difference btw that results in an overpayment by them to me of around 20cent of a measly 2k in disadvantaged the only thing I could get because theres no sfp for me due to the fact I didn't rent the lad from parents for a nominal value rather than what I actually did which was pay them market rate etc etc...I mean ffs its just one thing after another...household charge, increase prsi, water charge, insurance going up, wages go down, need a trailer license to tow a trailer youve been towing for the last 10 years without incident, new rules on commercial testing, do you have a bait point there a useless time consuming ****wit safety statement here ....pay out here, pay out there..get less here, get less there...and then you want to get rid of some briars/scrub on your land and of course somebody has an issue...



I'm so pissed off at this stage I'm off to destroy 0.01 of hectare of "bird habitat" anywhere I can find it on my land and the white throated whatever can go <modsnip> itself because that seems to be the attitude of almost every other state body or individual in this country towards me.

If you want to talk about ridiculous, take a look at the way "common sense" or even the slightest sense of decency utterly fails to materialise when it comes to our betters in govt etc - time they realised they work for us and not the other way around I'm also sick of having it proved to me day in day out that everything is protected except seemingly me.....if there was any fairness in this country I would have a lot more time to think about ways to co -exist with protected species....as it is I'm only able to think about how to survive as an individual by defending myself against the next attack/rule/regulation resulting in hands being tied further behind ones back while ones wallet is being relieved of its raison detre.

Illegitimi non carborundum. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegitimi_non_carborundum

Nekarsulm

Capercaille wrote: »

Unfortunately SAC's designations don't stop habitat destruction, because they are widely ignored.

objectively, the best thing that could happen this planet, would be for the human race to die out, and quickly. She could heal herself, give it 40 years and most of our towns and cities would be surprisingly well reclaimed by nature. Look at the current state of Chernobyl, wild deer, boar etc. roaming free, and poplars, birch etc. already 20 foot high in the streets.

I reckon you could get the dept.. of Ag. to actively push for this scenario, as long as they themselves were immune and still had the pension...........

HillFarmer

Agree with Capercaille on this one.

Growing up on a dairy farm in the east, in the 80's it was all about taking out ditches building farm roadways etc. A lot of land near my homplace is 100 acre blocks of paddocks, ideal for dairy farming but it does have a big affect on wildlife.

I'm not a hippy by any means but I do feel we are causing damage. I thought the Reps and to a lesser extent AEOS was a fantastic idea but it looks as if these schemes are now going to be a thing of the past.

Sure we need to be productive but at what cost?

Often hear of Dad's tales of the corncrake butI've never heard a corncrake and by the looks of it might never.
I think the curlew etc are also under threat.

Farmer

Of course the current SPF fascination with nothing but grass IS ridiculous for many reasons

It flies totally in the face of previous policies, REPS, AEOS, SAC, in that it encourages (I would say 'forces') the opposite to what these tried to achieve

It gives an unfair advantage to the man you mentioned with 100 acre fields who only has to run a hedge cutter around his land (and please note, I don't begrudge him this), while another person struggles with slippy slopes,wet land, rushes, maybe bare rock, heather, scrub, etc. just to please the SFP people

It flies in the face of reality -
-the reality that green grass cannot grow everywhere and never will, that land comes with stones and rock, wet hollows and rushes,
-the reality that some areas with native trees, rivers and the occasional bit of scrub just need to be left alone,
-the reality that the planet is warming and burning scrub or digging it up (more diesel) and allowing it decompose surely generates more CO2 than the patch is worth
-the reality that habitats and species are dying due to agricultural intensity and that we need this bio diversity to survive

Did I mention the parks and wildlife crew, the government may as well lay them all off and re-hire them as SPF inspectors to make sure we ARE all burning our scrub. While we're at it, we may as well cut the branches off all trees and leave them like telegraph poles to minimize their footprint as seen by the almighty satellite

Then there's the whole turf cutting saga. That would be fine - and I certainly appreciate the merit of it - if those of us with heather covered mountain were not being forced to now do the opposite, i.e keep it grazed, as close to grass as possible,no rushes. I wonder if the occasional birch or mountain ash shoot is now also classifies as scrub

Now I'm not advocating that places should be let run wild. Of course a farm should be kept as efficient and tidy as practical, but applying the same standards across all farms in Europe is not on

J.O. Farmer

I love amacca's rant about the birds. I agree that the whole thing is gone mad. Has anyone been told by the satellite that their field is bigger than they thought. I don't know any but maybe they can make up for the scrub the rest of us need to remove to get the fields which haven't changed in size back to the size we all thought they were.

Boaty

Capercaille wrote: »

Yes thus farmers are financially encouraged to destroy a vital habitat. No wonder birds like twite are on a verge of extinction in Ireland.

Are they protected?

Birdnuts

Boaty wrote: »

Are they protected?

All birds are protected under Irish and EU law, apart from certain crow/pigeon species and game birds during the hunting season.

Capercaille

Boaty wrote: »

Are they protected?

Not allowed to shoot them. 50-100 pairs left in country. Only found now in any significant breeding numbers in northwest Mayo and west Donegal. Formerly found in most coastal Counties. In 2011 large areas of scrub in Erris head were destroyed with Twite nesting areas.

Bizzum

Birdnuts wrote: »

All birds are protected under Irish and EU law, apart from certain crow/pigeon species and game birds during the hunting season.

Even the humble Crow and Pigeon are protected, excepting under derogation, which allows control in certain limited circumstances!
To add to the above debate I think the Countryside Bird Survey is worth a read, though 16 pages long. The picture it paints ain't all doom & gloom, some species in trouble, many holding their own and some expanding.

http://www.birdwatchireland.ie/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=id14qzCG/NM=&tabid=114

Birdnuts

Bizzum wrote: »

Even the humble Crow and Pigeon are protected, excepting under derogation, which allows control in certain limited circumstances!
To add to the above debate I think the Countryside Bird Survey is worth a read, though 16 pages long. The picture it paints ain't all doom & gloom, some species in trouble, many holding their own and some expanding.

http://www.birdwatchireland.ie/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=id14qzCG/NM=&tabid=114
[/QUOTE]

Yes - I should have clarified the fact that all birds are protected, but a few crow/pigeon species can be controlled under the derogation if causing damage.

Your second point is worth making too since some birds are doing well, particularly woodland species that have benefited from the spread of forestry. The record cold winter of 2010 also knocked back the populations of smaller birds and some like the stonechat still haven't recovered.

Bizzum

Birdnuts wrote: »

Your second point is worth making too since some birds are doing well, particularly woodland species that have benefited from the spread of forestry. The record cold winter of 2010 also knocked back the populations of smaller birds and some like the stonechat still haven't recovered.

I'm interested to note the Kestrel is under pressure, though I see them about. The Buzzard on the other hand is exploding in numbers. There seems to be plenty of room in the ecosystem for a decent scavenger!

Farmer

Capercaille wrote: »

Not allowed to shoot them. 50-100 pairs left in country. Only found now in any significant breeding numbers in northwest Mayo and west Donegal. Formerly found in most coastal Counties. In 2011 large areas of scrub in Erris head were destroyed with Twite nesting areas.

From our new friends in NPWS
http://www.npws.ie/publications/irishwildlifemanuals/IWM%2052.pdf

1.3.1 Nesting biology
Twite nests are generally found in bracken Pteridium aquilinum and ling heather Calluna vulgaris, usually
less than 50cm above the ground (McGhie et al., 1994). Nests have also been recorded in a wide variety of
other habitats including rushes Juncus spp., stonewalls, thistles Cirisium spp. (Brown et al., 1995),
coniferous plantations (Wilkinson & Wilson, 2010) and cliff ledges with or without vegetation

Not so sure we should keep the thistles but it's all the stuff that we're supposed to pull out under SFP. Somebody needs to get talkin' up there. Is it Hogan and Coveney? Maybe that's asking for too much

Birdnuts

Bizzum wrote: »

I'm interested to note the Kestrel is under pressure, though I see them about. The Buzzard on the other hand is exploding in numbers. There seems to be plenty of room in the ecosystem for a decent scavenger!

Yes - I think like the Barn Owl which is also declining, the Kestrel also suffers from secondary poisoning after consuming contaminated mice/rats which is a great pity as both are the farmers friends when it comes to controlling vermin. Buzzards are increasing but that's from extinction so raw percentages can be misleading. Same with the return of the GS Woodpecker which has also rapidly increased in % terms after returning only a few years ago.

Birdnuts

Farmer wrote: »

. Somebody needs to get talkin' up there. Is it Hogan and Coveney? Maybe that's asking for too much

Well the latter is certainly no friend of the smaller farmer on poorer land going on his actions so far in terms of gutting Pillar 2 funding etc. so I reckon it would be a waste of time even engaging someone with his outlook which is unashamedly pro-big agribusiness at the expense of most smaller primary producers