Irish Language Commissioner resigns

Bebo Rocks

I hope the government now take the chance to abolish this office compleaty. what waste of taxpayers money ! http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1204/490903-sean-o-cuirreain/

Godge

Bebo Rocks wrote: »

I hope the government now take the chance to abolish this office compleaty. what waste of taxpayers money ! http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/1204/490903-sean-o-cuirreain/

A big thing is being made of his resignation but from what I can see on the internet, he would have been close to 60 and entitled to retire in the normal course of events so not sure that it is a decision based on the actions of the government.

An Coilean

Godge wrote: »

A big thing is being made of his resignation but from what I can see on the internet, he would have been close to 60 and entitled to retire in the normal course of events so not sure that it is a decision based on the actions of the government.

This is the first time any ombudsman has decided to leave office in protest at government action/inaction, far from a big thing being made of it, the scilence is defening. If any other ombudsman felt the need to take similar action there would be a media circus surrounding it.

He had two years of his appointment by the President remaining and said that his decision to leave office is as a result of his belief that lack of support from the Government means that he feels there is little he can do to advance the rights of Irish speakers in accessing public services.

He has been highly critical of Government Policy for quite some time now and his decision to leave office has come as a shock to many in the language movement.

Godge

An Coilean wrote: »

This is the first time any ombudsman has decided to leave office in protest at government action/inaction, far from a big thing being made of it, the scilence is defening. If any other ombudsman felt the need to take similar action there would be a media circus surrounding it.

He had two years of his appointment by the President remaining and said that his decision to leave office is as a result of his belief that lack of support from the Government means that he feels there is little he can do to advance the rights of Irish speakers in accessing public services.

He has been highly critical of Government Policy for quite some time now and his decision to leave office has come as a shock to many in the language movement.

My point is that the gesture doesn't mean so much if he is about to pick up a generous pension and hefty lump sum, it sounds like sour grapes going out the door.

An Coilean

Godge wrote: »

My point is that the gesture doesn't mean so much if he is about to pick up a generous pension and hefty lump sum, it sounds like sour grapes going out the door.

Having met the man on more than one ocasion, having heard him speak at lenght on his role and the dificulties of his office and having had cause to contact his office in the past, I do not believe for one moment that his decision to step down was an easy one for him personally or that it is mearly a case of 'sour grapes'.

Seán Ó Cuirreáin has the respect of the community he was in office to protect, a respect founded on the professionalism and honesty with which he conducted his affairs, and his resignation on principle, while dificult to accept, is understandable given the circumstances he was faced with and is in keeping with the integrity of the man.

Godge

An Coilean wrote: »

Having met the man on more than one ocasion, having heard him speak at lenght on his role and the dificulties of his office and having had cause to contact his office in the past, I do not believe for one moment that his decision to step down was an easy one for him personally or that it is mearly a case of 'sour grapes'..

Why now? All I am saying it is one thing a man of 52 resigning on principle with no pension and no job to go to, it is another a man retiring on principle to a big lump sum and a generous pension. That is all.

An Coilean wrote: »

Seán Ó Cuirreáin has the respect of the community he was in office to protect, a respect founded on the professionalism and honesty with which he conducted his affairs, and his resignation on principle, while dificult to accept, is understandable given the circumstances he was faced with and is in keeping with the integrity of the man.

Now this is an interesting statement - "the community he was in office to protect". It is the typical defensive insular reaction of Irish language advocates which has done so much to damage the language. Look at his own website. Here are his functions:

http://www.coimisineir.ie/index.php?page=feidhmeanna_an_choimisineara_teanga&tid=9&lang=english

"To monitor compliance by public bodies with the provisions of the Official Languages Act and to take all necessary measures to ensure compliance by public bodies with their duties under the Act.
To conduct investigations on his own initiative, on request from the Minister for Arts. Heritage and Gaeltacht or pursuant to a complaint made to him by any person in cases where public bodies are considered to have failed to fulfil their duties under the Official Languages Act. An Coimisinéir Teanga also has the right to investigate any valid complaint in which it is alleged that the provisions of any other enactments relating to the status or use of Irish have been contravened.
To prepare a report in writing in respect of each investigation.
To provide advice to the public regarding their language rights under the Official Languages Act.
To provide advice to public bodies regarding their language duties under the Act.
To provide an annual report on the work of the Office of An Coimisinéir Teanga to the Minister for Arts. Heritage and Gaeltacht to be laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas.
To submit annual financial accounts by the Office of An Coimisinéir Teanga to the Comptroller and Auditor General and to provide these accounts to the Minister for Arts, Heritage and Gaeltacht to be laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas."


There is nothing about protecting a particular community. Nor should there be. The role should be about promoting the use of the language.

MadPat

An Coilean wrote: »

his resignation on principle, while dificult to accept, is understandable given the circumstances he was faced with and is in keeping with the integrity of the man.

He was faced with the fact that we're primarily an English-speaking nation and that his mission was Quixotic & impractical. It's understandable that any intelligent person would walk away from such a role.

We now have a golden opportunity to introduce common-sense and fairness into our relationship with the Irish language.

RandomName2

Fair enough he wanted to resign out of principle (taking it at face value) - but noone should be appointed to replace him. The position was just a consequence of Celtic Tiger fecklessness.

MadPat

RandomName2 wrote: »

The position was just a consequence of Celtic Tiger fecklessness.

Another Fianna Fail Folly.

Wasn't that office due to be moved to Portalington and merged with the Data Protection Commission?

HansHolzel

Coinnigh greim ar bhur gcapaill, lads.

On 12 March 2013, Gaelport.com reported the following case. It can be found in a link just under its report of the Language Commissioner's resignation but here is the direct link.

http://www.gaelport.com/nuacht?NewsItemID=9465

To summarize, the case involved a young man stopped in Dublin by An Garda Síochána over a traffic offence that didn't involve drink, speed or an accident. When he tried to conduct his business through Irish - his constitutional right - he was arrested, handcuffed and detained in a police station until an Irish-speaking officer could be found to deal with him.

I doubt this was reported on by any English language media organ.

MadPat

HansHolzel wrote: »

I doubt this was reported on by any English language media organ.

Indeed, only RTE, the Irish Examiner, The Journal and the Irish Independent and the Irish Times covered this story.

HansHolzel

I'm glad for two reasons:

(1) I underestimated their interest

(2) you read them all.

Is laoch thú ;-)

Cookie_Monster

HansHolzel wrote: »

To summarize, the case involved a young man stopped in Dublin by An Garda Síochána over a traffic offence that didn't involve drink, speed or an accident. When he tried to conduct his business through Irish - his constitutional right - he was arrested, handcuffed and detained in a police station until an Irish-speaking officer could be found to deal with him.

I doubt this was reported on by any English language media organ.

what's wrong with that? you have no idea what he was stopped for or how serious it was, should they just have let him go?

Iwasfrozen

Perfect opportunity to abolish the office. One can only hope the government shows initiative on this issue.

MadPat

HansHolzel wrote: »

.

Is laoch thú ;-)

Ironic: The driver used Irish to frustrate the Gardai and you use Irish to try and insult me. Both of you abuse the language.

HansHolzel

MadPat wrote: »

Ironic: The driver used Irish to frustrate the Gardai ...

Insult you? Not even when you don't know the meaning of irony.

View

HansHolzel wrote: »

When he tried to conduct his business through Irish - his constitutional right -

Out of curiousity, which article of the constitution states you have a right to conduct your business through Irish? Particularly in a part of the state that clearly is not Irish speaking and hasn't been for decades if not centuries?

Also, is there an article that gives English speakers the right to conduct their business, not with the Garda Siochana, but with the correct officially-translated-into-English named version of our policing service? I ask because no doubt English speakers can then hang around while the Gardaí rebrand themselves into English every time someone requests it...

expectationlost

Gavan Reilly @gavreilly
...poetically, his resignation announcement was delayed 45 mins because the translation facility in the Oireachtas committee wasn't working https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/408281898717163520

Iwasfrozen

expectationlost wrote: »

Gavan Reilly @gavreilly
...poetically, his resignation announcement was delayed 45 mins because the translation facility in the Oireachtas committee wasn't working https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/408281898717163520

FFS could he not have resigned in English? :rolleyes:

Dannyboy83

I've never really understood why people use Irish in these threads when the OP has written in English.

Iwasfrozen

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I've never really understood why people use Irish in these threads when the OP has written in English.

They're showing how more Irish they are than you.

HansHolzel

No, more educated

Iwasfrozen

HansHolzel wrote: »

No, more educated

How do you know how educated I am?

Bebo Rocks

Do irish speaking people who don't speak English exist ?

creedp

HansHolzel wrote: »

No, more educated

Is it only those who speak Irish as a second language that are more educated or could you describe those who speak any second language in the same category?

I've nothing against Irish and think people who have an interest in speaking it and keeping it alive should be supported but the whole Irish language juggernaut has gone a little out of control in recent years so maybe this guy has just realised he won't achieve his lofty ambitions and has cut his losses and taken the pension.

Next thing we need to do is stop to horrendous waste associated with publishing dual language Govt publication. Better to estimate likely demand (which is pretty small at present) and print sufficient Irish language versions to meet this demand. Imagine the financial savings and just as important the environmental savings associated with this most immenently sensible approach. One thing I can't abide is unnecessary waste especially if its done to simply placate a voiciferous interest group with no objective benefits.

Hotblack Desiato

Godge wrote: »

A big thing is being made of his resignation but from what I can see on the internet, he would have been close to 60 and entitled to retire in the normal course of events so not sure that it is a decision based on the actions of the government.

This generation of recent and soon-to-be-retirees really annoy me with their sense of entitlement.

Many people in their 40s currently have no idea when they'll be retiring. Well, they've a pretty good idea they'll be fecked out of their job at 65, but don't know when they'll get a pension. Or even if.

This goes for the public sector as well as private. I've no idea when I'll be allowed to retire, but it sure won't be 58.

As usual, one rule for the fat cats, well-connected, and, yes, the Irish lobby - and another rule for the people who pay their wages.

Hotblack Desiato

I wish this government had had the guts to abolish the Official Languages Act when they took office. It's your standard FF formula, pander to a vested interest about something very important to them to win votes, while hoping that the people paying for it won't be bothered enough about it to object.

While their wages being cut in the name of efficiency, public servants are being forced to implement a policy they know is a pointless waste of money. Especially when it comes to translating websites and being forced to provide web services in Irish. Nobody uses them.

FF didn't care about waste of public money, but we can't afford not to care now.
'Jobs' 'created' in carrying out pointless translations that nobody will read are not a benefit to the Irish language, the taxpayer, or anyone, apart from those carrying out the make-work. These 'jobs' are a worthless burden on the taxpayer, and so was the stunt of making Irish an official EU language. It is the modern day equivalent of the pointless labours of Sisyphus, rolling the heavy stone up the hill only for it to fall again to the benefit of no-one.

Godge

HansHolzel wrote: »

No, more educated

Or more ignorant, backward and lost in tradition.

It all depends on your point of view.

Godge

HansHolzel wrote: »

Coinnigh greim ar bhur gcapaill, lads.

On 12 March 2013, Gaelport.com reported the following case. It can be found in a link just under its report of the Language Commissioner's resignation but here is the direct link.

http://www.gaelport.com/nuacht?NewsItemID=9465

To summarize, the case involved a young man stopped in Dublin by An Garda Síochána over a traffic offence that didn't involve drink, speed or an accident. When he tried to conduct his business through Irish - his constitutional right - he was arrested, handcuffed and detained in a police station until an Irish-speaking officer could be found to deal with him.

I doubt this was reported on by any English language media organ.

I would say the Guards knew well what he was at. Trying to be smart in order to avoid being arrested.

The rest of your post is rubbish.

There is no constitutional right to conduct business through Irish - look it up yourself. It is not referenced anywhere in Articles 40-44 which are the ones referring to personal rights. Instead it is mentioned in Article 8 as follows:

"Provision may, however, be made by law for the exclusive use of either of the said languages for any one or more official purposes, either throughout the State or in any part thereof"

Now the Official Languages Act provides for when a citizen can have his dealings in Irish with the State. By corollary, it can be argued that if it is not in the OLA there is no right to be dealt with in Irish. So show me the part of the OLA that says a person has the right to talk to a guard in Irish.

h2005

HansHolzel wrote: »

No, more educated

Now you`re just being a bit of a amadan!

doctorjohn

Bebo Rocks wrote: »

Do irish speaking people who don't speak English exist ?

Yes they do.
Not a hell of a lot , but at least 20 people in my practice have no English.
At least 100 function very poorly in english.
The majority, over 1100, function better in Irish than english , and use irish as their only language, apart from when non irish speakers visit , and they fake fluency in english.
And I mind them every day.
I've had to learn Irish (not my first language) to be able to consult with them.
John
ps I'm not spoiling for an internet row, just saying it as it is.
pps I don't care if I'm not believed. I'm just stateing my reality as a blow in GP to a gaeltacht area.
pps - In my area , Irish is the only language the toddlers (the under 2s) hear

Iwasfrozen

doctorjohn wrote: »

Yes they do.
Not a hell of a lot , but at least 20 people in my practice have no English.
At least 100 function very poorly in english.
The majority, over 1100, function better in Irish than english , and use irish as their only language, apart from when non irish speakers visit , and they fake fluency in english.
And I mind them every day.
I've had to learn Irish (not my first language) to be able to consult with them.
John

These two sentences don't seem to fit together. If they have English why have you had to learn Irish?

doctorjohn wrote: »

pps - In my area , Irish is the only language the toddlers (the under 2s) hear

That'll change.

MadPat

HansHolzel wrote: »

Insult you? Not even when you don't know the meaning of irony.

The irony is that you claim to be 'more educated', yet use Irish for the wrong reasons. That you claim to be 'more educated', yet, apparently did not bother to check your facts before claiming that the English language media had ignored a story that had in fact receieved widespread coverage.

RandomName2

doctorjohn wrote: »

Yes they do.
Not a hell of a lot , but at least 20 people in my practice have no English.
At least 100 function very poorly in english.

I'm sceptical. If they have access to the internet, radio, television, or travel outside of the Gaelteacht they would have exposure almost exclusively to English. Also, didn't they attend some sort of formal education. Are they illiterate? If it is the case that they generally haven't properly learned the main language of the state, or how to read/write, then the state has failed these people.

doctorjohn wrote: »

pps - In my area , Irish is the only language the toddlers (the under 2s) hear

If that is the case, then their toddlers are receiving a huge disservice.

Incidentally, do you believe, as was the preoccupation of the Language Commissioner, that you should have had to be fluent in Irish to be able to act as a GP?

HansHolzel

MadPat wrote: »

...apparently did not bother to check your facts before claiming that the English language media had ignored a story...

I did NOT claim that. I expressed "doubt" about it.

Try reading the English first before commenting on Irish.

Dannyboy83

HansHolzel wrote: »

No, more educated

But it only seems to be considered more educated in Ireland by a small group of other Irish speakers as far as I can understand.

Outside of Ireland, it's generally considered ill-mannered.

If I met with a group of Lithuanian friends, and I cannot speak Lithuanian, and another individual cannot speak Russian, but we are all capable of speaking English, it would be considered uncouth for someone to insist on speaking Lithuanian, or for me to insist on speaking Russian and either party would be openly admonished for it.

HansHolzel

But you're not Lithuanian, you're Irish. (This is like Monty Python now.)

Dannyboy83

HansHolzel wrote: »

But you're not Lithuanian, you're Irish. (This is like Monty Python now.)

How is nationality relevant?

I have spoken German to a Spanish bus driver because that was the shared language.
Nationality has no bearing - why do you feel it has? Can you elaborate?

HansHolzel

Look, all messing aside, I do agree it's rude for Irish speakers to exclude a non-Irish-speaking Irish person but it's really the Irish haters that I'm here to have a bit of crack with.

Robbo

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

what's wrong with that? you have no idea what he was stopped for or how serious it was, should they just have let him go?

Here's the report (relevant pages 39-42). The report notes that the driver was stopped under Section 53 of the Road Traffic Act, Dangerous Driving. We'll have to assume that he means the principle, 1963 Act here as it's the most likely but the man's use of (both) language(s) is so amazingly imprecise and his investigation so shallow in facts that he uses the blanket term of "Road Traffic Acts 1963-2011" to describe legislation that's updated by Statute almost every year. A little vagueness really does save a lot of explanation even when your job description involves tilting at improperly phrased roadsigns.

It should be clarified that the issue did not involve an accident or any allegations concerning speeding or driving under the influence of alcohol.

Whilst at pains to point out what he wasn't stopped for, the report neglects to mention what he did do to warrant being pulled over on suspicion of a Section 53 offence. A more cynical man might believe that were the nature of the driving disclosed, the driver might be seen as a less sympathic character than one under the jackboot of the monolingual oppressor.

So we have a man pulled over for one of the more serious Road Traffic offences (but it's OK, he wasn't a drunk speed merchant) who "was taking a principled stand on a matter that was of importance to him". I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that wasn't so much the importance of his statutory (not Constitutional, the Commisioner is clear on this) right to conduct his affairs through Irish rather the importance of avoiding a substantial number of penalty points.

Investigation launched: 29 June 2011
Report issued: 3 August 2012

I'd say they had the boys in the crime lab working in shifts for this one.

madel

doctorjohn wrote: »

Yes they do.
Not a hell of a lot , but at least 20 people in my practice have no English.
At least 100 function very poorly in english.
The majority, over 1100, function better in Irish than english , and use irish as their only language, apart from when non irish speakers visit , and they fake fluency in english.
And I mind them every day.
I've had to learn Irish (not my first language) to be able to consult with them.
John
ps I'm not spoiling for an internet row, just saying it as it is.
pps I don't care if I'm not believed. I'm just stateing my reality as a blow in GP to a gaeltacht area.
pps - In my area , Irish is the only language the toddlers (the under 2s) hear

To be fair, we haven't many areas left where this is the case, you're looking at either Gaoth Dobhair or Connemara Theas from Spiddal Westwards to Carna. I've spent time in Conemara and I'd agree with that description. I have all the time in the world for the Gaeltacht where the language is still the primary medium of social interaction. As for Irish learners outside of the Gaeltacht, I'm not as fond of them because alot of them have become very zealous in their pursuit of rights that don't promote informal interactions through Irish in their communities. Really what's need is a drastic overhaul of state policy in regards to Irish which differentiates between learner efforts outside the Gaeltacht where it is learned mostly as a second language and policy in the Gaeltacht where it is transmitted between generations in the home and is the language of the community. Many older people who speak Irish are close to monglot but they do understand english but can be very very uncomfortable speaking it. It's actually amazing to come across them still. When they were growing up, there was little movement into the Gaeltacht and english was of no use within the community.

HansHolzel

Robbo wrote: »

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that wasn't so much the importance of his statutory (not Constitutional, the Commisioner is clear on this) right to conduct his affairs through Irish...

Somebody (maybe even the Commissioner) might want to have a look again at Bunreacht na hÉireann

Article 8

1. The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.

nuac

MadPat wrote: »

Ironic: The driver used Irish to frustrate the Gardai and you use Irish to try and insult me. Both of you abuse the language.

He was entitled to use Irish when speaking to a Garda.

If this was in Dublin it should not have been too hard to find an Irish speaking Garda. Thousands of Gardai within a short distance.

Arrest and handcuffs seem OTT

Iwasfrozen

HansHolzel wrote: »

Somebody (maybe even the Commissioner) might want to have a look again at Bunreacht na hÉireann

Article 8

1. The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.

While you're looking, what's article 8.3? I've forgotten.

nuac wrote: »

He was entitled to use Irish when speaking to a Garda.

If this was in Dublin it should not have been too hard to find an Irish speaking Garda. Thousands of Gardai within a short distance.

Arrest and handcuffs seem OTT

The Guards were given a slap on the wrist. What's the problem?

HansHolzel

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

While you're looking, what's article 8.3? I've forgotten.

It prevents Irish haters getting mocked in Irish on Boards.

Godge

HansHolzel wrote: »

Somebody (maybe even the Commissioner) might want to have a look again at Bunreacht na hÉireann

Article 8

1. The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.

I have already explained the limitations of Article 8 in full to you but maybe you missed it. Personal rights are in a separate section of the Constitution.

Godge wrote: »

I would say the Guards knew well what he was at. Trying to be smart in order to avoid being arrested.

The rest of your post is rubbish.

There is no constitutional right to conduct business through Irish - look it up yourself. It is not referenced anywhere in Articles 40-44 which are the ones referring to personal rights. Instead it is mentioned in Article 8 as follows:

"Provision may, however, be made by law for the exclusive use of either of the said languages for any one or more official purposes, either throughout the State or in any part thereof"

Now the Official Languages Act provides for when a citizen can have his dealings in Irish with the State. By corollary, it can be argued that if it is not in the OLA there is no right to be dealt with in Irish. So show me the part of the OLA that says a person has the right to talk to a guard in Irish.

HansHolzel

Letter of the law and spirit of the law

e.g.

say a mute person tries sign language on a garda, does he/she earn arrest, cuffing and detention until a garda with sign language skills can be found??

There should be no legal presumption that an Irish speaker is a messer and/or a subversive. That smacks of colonialist thinking.

Chips Lovell

I assume this guy could speak English and chose not to in order to annoy the cops. If that's the case, a proper analogy would be someone who can speak but insists on using sign language.

HansHolzel

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I assume ...

yeah, that was my point

Dannyboy83

nuac wrote: »

He was entitled to use Irish when speaking to a Garda.

If this was in Dublin it should not have been too hard to find an Irish speaking Garda. Thousands of Gardai within a short distance.

Arrest and handcuffs seem OTT

I don't know the full details of the story, but I assume the person was handcuffed for a public order offence?

If it is demonstrated that the individual has a working knowledge of English, would they not be guilty of a public order offence under Section 8 - specifically, "Failure to comply with the direction of a member of An Garda Siochana" ?

Iwasfrozen

HansHolzel wrote: »

It prevents Irish haters getting mocked in Irish on Boards.

No that's not the one. Go on look again it's just two paragraphs below the one you quoted. Article 8.3