Court summons - careless driving, dangerous overtaking & 6 more counts.

nobodiez

Hi all,

On 15th June this year, I was turning left, so I used about 15 meters of a bus lane to change to a lane which direct to left. An unmarked car was in front of me. They followed me then. After turning left, I was behind a small micra which was moving very slow, so I overtook through a continous white line, and drove off. The guards followed me & then stopped me 5 minutes later. I was driving a friends car which wasn't taxed. I had my own car's insurance cert on, with which I have a third party extension, so the guards told me I was driving with no insurance, even though I showed them the cert clearly stating that I can driving a different car that's not in my name & have third party coverage. They took my car away on a tow truck & didn't tell me whether I would be getting a fine, only that I have to get it from the impount. I got my car back and that was it. Today, 6 months later I got a summons to court letter including 9 different counts of summons:
1) Careless driving
2) Overtaking dangerously
3) Overtaking on the left lane (I overtook on the right side)
4) Failure to provide insurance cert
5) Failure to provide insurance disc
6) Driving with no insurance
7) Failure to provide a tax disc
8) Driving on the bus lane

Now, I went to the garda station to provide my insurance details again 3 days later, they confirmed it was valid & fine. I went to the garda station & they said just bring proof of insurance & the judge will cancel these charges.

What do I do now? I did provide my insurance cert on the spot, and I had my insurance disc in. Overtaking on the left lane did not happen at all. My friend paid the tax the following month, but has since that sold the car & as far as I know it was exported.
I have to get a solicitor, that much I know. But half of these charges are false & why did I get driving carelessly as well as dangerous overtaking?
Would the judge combine all these charges & give one huge fine, or charge me separately? It's a messed up situation. I'm going to talk to a Garda I know tomorrow, show him these summons see what he says.

Any opinions? Can someone recommend a good solicitor that would deal with traffic offences?

I cannot afford to lose my license, or pay a fine of €1500, not even talking about imprisonment

HELP PLEASE...

nobodiez

This will be a great Christmas present to me...
Court appearance is on the 20th December.

Cd_doe

nobodiez wrote: »

Hi all,

On 15th June this year, I was turning left, so I used about 15 meters of a bus lane to change to a lane which direct to left. An unmarked car was in front of me. They followed me then. After turning left, I was behind a small micra which was moving very slow, so I overtook through a continous white line, and drove off. The guards followed me & then stopped me 5 minutes later. I was driving a friends car which wasn't taxed. I had my own car's insurance cert on, with which I have a third party extension, so the guards told me I was driving with no insurance, even though I showed them the cert clearly stating that I can driving a different car that's not in my name & have third party coverage. They took my car away on a tow truck & didn't tell me whether I would be getting a fine, only that I have to get it from the impount. I got my car back and that was it. Today, 6 months later I got a summons to court letter including 9 different counts of summons:
1) Careless driving
2) Overtaking dangerously
3) Overtaking on the left lane (I overtook on the right side)
4) Failure to provide insurance cert
5) Failure to provide insurance disc
6) Driving with no insurance
7) Failure to provide a tax disc
8) Driving on the bus lane

Now, I went to the garda station to provide my insurance details again 3 days later, they confirmed it was valid & fine. I went to the garda station & they said just bring proof of insurance & the judge will cancel these charges.

What do I do now? I did provide my insurance cert on the spot, and I had my insurance disc in. Overtaking on the left lane did not happen at all. My friend paid the tax the following month, but has since that sold the car & as far as I know it was exported.
I have to get a solicitor, that much I know. But half of these charges are false & why did I get driving carelessly as well as dangerous overtaking?
Would the judge combine all these charges & give one huge fine, or charge me separately? It's a messed up situation. I'm going to talk to a Garda I know tomorrow, show him these summons see what he says.

Any opinions? Can someone recommend a good solicitor that would deal with traffic offences?

I cannot afford to lose my license, or pay a fine of €1500, not even talking about imprisonment

HELP PLEASE...

But you did overtake the unmarked car on the left?
But you did overtake a car on a continuous white line?
But the car wasn't taxed?
But you did drive in a bus lane?

As you said the insurance will be sorted on court?

Get a solicitor.... go into the traffic court one day and Youl see which ones are good. Then you can approach them

Wicklowandy

You contradict yourself in your post regarding your or your friends ownership of the car.

Your third party extension is no use if you own the car.

By the sounds of things you drove badly and continued to do so with the law behind you.

I'd definitely see a solicitor familiar with whatever district court you're summonsed to, and follow every bit of advice they give.

That's the best money you can spend. Good luck:)

nobodiez

Cd_doe wrote: »

But you did overtake the unmarked car on the left?
But you did overtake a car on a continuous white line?
But the car wasn't taxed?
But you did drive in a bus lane?

As you said the insurance will be sorted on court?

Get a solicitor.... go into the traffic court one day and Youl see which ones are good. Then you can approach them

You are correct, but overtaking would happen If I changed to the bus lane, and came to the lane that the unmarked car was in. I proceeded to go to the left lane to turn left, I did not come back to the lane where they were.

nobodiez

Sorry being not clear - the car was not mine, I was only driving it. It was in my friends name, so I could drive the car legally. Thanks for the advice...

Wicklowandy wrote: »

You contradict yourself in your post regarding your or your friends ownership of the car.

Your third party extension is no use if you own the car.

By the sounds of things you drove badly and continued to do so with the law behind you.

I'd definitely see a solicitor familiar with whatever district court you're summonsed to, and follow every bit of advice they give.

That's the best money you can spend. Good luck:)

Wicklowandy

But you had no reason to be in the bus lane except for driving carelessly.

And when they saw you doing that, they followed you and saw more bad driving. Not great, especially if you've no tax / minimal from their POV insurance.

Wicklowandy

If it was their car, how come you recovered it?

Cd_doe

nobodiez wrote: »

Sorry being not clear - the car was not mine, I was only driving it. It was in my friends name, so I could drive the car legally. Thanks for the advice...

Is your friend who owns the car also insured in it?
if not its highly unlikely that your policy covers you to drive it...

Wicklowandy

I think it is "your" car and put in your friends name for an extension. And I'd say the guard knew it too;)

nobodiez

I fully accept driving in the bus lane & the fine for it.
I always see people doing it, say if there's a lot of traffic ahead of you, and you want to turn left where there is no traffic.
Of course it is illegal. That's not the main issue I'm having though...

nobodiez

Wicklowandy wrote: »

I think it is "your" car and put in your friends name for an extension. And I'd say the guard knew it too;)

I know what you mean, there are people who do abuse the system that way, I'm not one of them but either way. He wasn't using it, so I drove it for a week. I got the car back because I lost it

Wicklowandy

You need to see a solicitor. This could end with a ban if you don't tread carefully. I hope you were reasonable with the guard involved:)

Wicklowandy

What did you have to present to recover your car?

nobodiez

Yeah I will see a solicitor definitely. I was being reasonable/nice to the guard, but she seemed to be very angry at me. It happened 6 months ago. I was talking to some gardai who work with her, and they say that she's very hard, no one can reason with her...

nobodiez

Wicklowandy wrote: »

What did you have to present to recover your car?

Actually one of the Gardai that I know got some form stamped & he gave me the document, so I got it back for free I only had to show the stamped form he gave me.

Wicklowandy

Cd_doe wrote: »

Is your friend who owns the car also insured in it?
if not its highly unlikely that your policy covers you to drive it...

Not true, policy specific condition. Check your policy document to be sure.

Cd_doe

Wicklowandy wrote: »

Not true, policy specific condition. Check your policy document to be sure.

Extremely unlikely... not impossible.

Unless he has garage insurance... but I'd imagine he would know if he has this without having to check

Wicklowandy

nobodiez wrote: »

Actually one of the Gardai that I know got some form stamped & he gave me the document, so I got it back for free I only had to show the stamped form he gave me.

You're a lucky person. Someone advised going to the courts to recruit a solicitor, and it's good advice.

If you haven't been before, it might be useful to go and see similar cases in action, the penalties handed out and how the judge interacts with the different local solicitors. Then you'll know which one to hire.

If you don't mind me asking, what cars on your policy and what were you driving?

Wicklowandy

Cd_doe wrote: »

Extremely unlikely... not impossible.

Unless he has garage insurance... but I'd imagine he would know if he has this without having to check

Have had it with last 3 insurers, but as I said, check your documents as it's policy specific.

nobodiez

Wicklowandy wrote: »

You're a lucky person. Someone advised going to the courts to recruit a solicitor, and it's good advice.

If you haven't been before, it might be useful to go and see similar cases in action, the penalties handed out and how the judge interacts with the different local solicitors. Then you'll know which one to hire.

If you don't mind me asking, what cars on your policy and what were you driving?

It was a 03 E270 cdi mercedes, and I have a 03 corolla on my policy. Either way I will produce the relevant document. That's a great idea about going to see similar cases. Not sure how to find out when they are in action though...

Cd_doe

Wicklowandy wrote: »

Have had it with last 3 insurers, but as I said, check your documents as it's policy specific.

That you could be insured to drive any car?
without having garage insurance and paying roughly 3 or 4 times more than a single vehicle policy?

Any policy I have seen stated that the car most not be owned by you, the vehicle must be covered by another policy and you must have it with the permission of the owner.

So could you insure a little fiesta(that u don't even drive) as your primary vehicle on your policy and instead drive a 2.5 litre turbo rocket which is in your wife's name and not insured by anybody?

Edit: not saying your wrong, I just didn't think it was possible

Wicklowandy

Ring your local court office, and they'll tell you. The 20th is a Friday so if it's weekly you've a couple more days to go watch and recruit from.

I know it's a pain taking two days off work and paying for a solicitor especially this close to Christmas. But (approx) €2-300 and a couple of days off work is a small price to protect your licence and minimise your fines.

Again, good luck:)

veetwin

I think your story has a few issues.

You say you were driving your friends car which was untaxed. Then you say that you got your car back? Presumably either you or your friend taxed it in order to get it back? In any event you are going to have to answer the no tax displayed summons.

Also you say you had your insurance disc in? Presumably this disc related to another vehicle and not your friends? I'd imagine the guards would take a fairly dim view of this and in any case you would have to answer the no insurance displayed summons.

The overtaking on the left summons probably relates to the traffic you overtook in the bus lane.

Crossing a continuous white line is always going to attract attention and a careless driving summons may issue if the guard witnesses it. Similar story for a summons for dangerous overtaking if the guard can prove it.

The question also arises whether or not you were insured particularly if the car in question was not covered by another insurance policy. You need to check this with your insurer.

I don't know where you came up with the idea that half these charges were false. I'd say contact a good road traffic solicitor.

challengemaster

Cd_doe wrote: »

Extremely unlikely... not impossible.

Unless he has garage insurance... but I'd imagine he would know if he has this without having to check

It's actually the opposite - most companies will cover you if the owner of the vehicle doesn't have their own insurance.

As for the OP..

1) Careless driving - Decision of the gardaí to make that call. Based on everything they saw, I'd say they're right too
2) Overtaking dangerously - Continuous white line
3) Overtaking on the left lane - Passing vehicles in the bus lane, doesn't matter if you never returned to the same lane, you still passed them aka. overtaking.
4) Failure to provide insurance cert - dealt with
5) Failure to provide insurance disc - This is actually true too, as the insurance disc was not for your friends car, but for your own, hence not valid for the vehicle you were driving.
6) Driving with no insurance - dealt with
7) Failure to provide a tax disc - Also true
8) Driving on the bus lane - Also true

So the only ones you've any chance of getting dismissed are the insurance ones, and the rest aren't false like you claim.

Wicklowandy

My last 3 insurers (AXA, Zurich and Quinn) had it on my policy, and I've never requested anything like it. I can drive any other private motor vehicle as long as it's not owned by me or my spouse. No requirement for the vehicle to be insured by anyone else:)

nobodiez

Wicklowandy wrote: »

Ring your local court office, and they'll tell you. The 20th is a Friday so if it's weekly you've a couple more days to go watch and recruit from.

I know it's a pain taking two days off work and paying for a solicitor especially this close to Christmas. But (approx) €2-300 and a couple of days off work is a small price to protect your licence and minimise your fines.

Again, good luck:)

Thanks for your help mate, I appreciated that. I will definitely do that

Cd_doe

Wicklowandy wrote: »

My last 3 insurers (AXA, Zurich and Quinn) had it on my policy, and I've never requested anything like it. I can drive any other private motor vehicle as long as it's not owned by me or my spouse. No requirement for the vehicle to be insured by anyone else:)

That handy. Must look for that myself...
might buy a 93 alto for 200 euro and insure that

nobodiez

What do you make of all this though, will I get separate fines for all the offences, or one big fine?

challengemaster wrote: »

It's actually the opposite - most companies will cover you if the owner of the vehicle doesn't have their own insurance.

As for the OP..

1) Careless driving - Decision of the gardaí to make that call. Based on everything they saw, I'd say they're right too
2) Overtaking dangerously - Continuous white line
3) Overtaking on the left lane - Passing vehicles in the bus lane, doesn't matter if you never returned to the same lane, you still passed them aka. overtaking.
4) Failure to provide insurance cert - dealt with
5) Failure to provide insurance disc - This is actually true too, as the insurance disc was not for your friends car, but for your own, hence not valid for the vehicle you were driving.
6) Driving with no insurance - dealt with
7) Failure to provide a tax disc - Also true
8) Driving on the bus lane - Also true

So the only ones you've any chance of getting dismissed are the insurance ones, and the rest aren't false like you claim.

nobodiez

I have another question. The reason for towing my car away was:
No valid insurance.
I did provide an insurance cert which shows a third party extension.
BUT the Gardai said that this was not valid, since it was a different reg - therefore they were wrong, because in fact it was a valid insurance policy. I even brought it to a garda traffic corps station who confirmed that this was true, having a third party extension you car drive any car with the owners permission, if it is not registered in your own name.
So if the Gardai that charged me these summons wrongly towed my car away due to not knowing the law & my insurance policy correctly, could I fight this case saying that they did not carry out the law correctly?
I know that if the Gardai aren't right in say filling out a document, or writing misleading information then the case has to be dismissed (happened to someone else).
Opinions?

Wicklowandy

Each summons will be dealt with individually. Fines will be cumulative. Don't focus on the fines for now, put your energy into getting a solicitor. They won't expect you to pay the fines there and then if you can't and judges seem to take into account people's abilities to pay when setting penalties.

But, if convicted, your fines are going to be considerable enough. I think the penalty points are cumulative too, so if you're on 6 now you're in trouble:)

Wicklowandy

But you said you had no tax??

Cd_doe

nobodiez wrote: »

I have another question. The reason for towing my car away was:
No valid insurance.
I did provide an insurance cert which shows a third party extension.
BUT the Gardai said that this was not valid, since it was a different reg - therefore they were wrong, because in fact it was a valid insurance policy. I even brought it to a garda traffic corps station who confirmed that this was true, having a third party extension you car drive any car with the owners permission, if it is not registered in your own name.
So if the Gardai that charged me these summons wrongly towed my car away due to not knowing the law & my insurance policy correctly, could I fight this case saying that they did not carry out the law correctly?
I know that if the Gardai aren't right in say filling out a document, or writing misleading information then the case has to be dismissed (happened to someone else).
Opinions?

No. Once they had reason to believe the car was uninsured. Also if the tax was out over 2 months they could impound it...

Either way this would be unrelated to the other incidents such as careless driving etc

Wicklowandy

I don't think you're going to get far with that.....a guard has witnessed you driving carelessly in an untaxed car with no insurance displayed

Paulw

If the car was not taxed, they can tow it away. So, I would be cautious challenging their towing of the vehicle.

Again, you need the proper advice of a solicitor, but you are definitely looking at a decent fine and some points. How much will depend on the judge.

challengemaster

Wicklowandy wrote: »

But, if convicted, your fines are going to be considerable enough. I think the penalty points are cumulative too, so if you're on 6 now you're in trouble:)

AFAIK, If charged with multiple offenses you only get the penalty points of the highest points offence. That being said, as the gardaí followed the OP for 5 minutes and as some offenses happened at a different time / location to other ones, this could be different.

He's lucky the no insurance charge isn't true, otherwise it would probably be a straight ban handed out.

Greenmachine

Hope you get banned. It is wreckless drivers like you who push up everyone else's policies.

hullaballoo

Thread closed.

I will be issuing warnings or infractions, as appropriate, when I get to my PC later.

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