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Are some races too easy ?

  • 03-12-2013 10:08AM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,222 ✭✭✭


    A Recent article by Timmy Barry suggesting that some races are too easy . whats your opinion ?
    Are races too easy ? Having a variety of circuit types is beneficial within a season, flat, hilly circuits, to suit the various rider types.
    A lot of factors go into determining the race structure: resources/ marshals/ cars / funding /circuit capacity (how many can you safely put through your most dangerous point of the circuit). These are the unavoidable constraints on presenting a race.
    A4 is on constrained to a max of 80K. Too long ? too short ? Just right ?
    What would you change about the races that you have attended in 2013 ? What is your after food expectation ? what bugs you most about organisers ? circuits ?
    Do you get fed up with the same circuit year on year ? or do you hope the circuit has not changed since last year , since you know where to go on the circuit ?
    What is your pet grievance with any particular circuit ? Can CI do anything to improve any aspect of a race ?


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 911 ✭✭✭crashoveroid


    michael196 wrote: »
    A Recent article by Timmy Barry suggesting that some races are too easy . whats your opinion ?
    Are races too easy ? Having a variety of circuit types is beneficial within a season, flat, hilly circuits, to suit the various rider types.
    A lot of factors go into determining the race structure: resources/ marshals/ cars / funding /circuit capacity (how many can you safely put through your most dangerous point of the circuit). These are the unavoidable constraints on presenting a race.
    A4 is on constrained to a max of 80K. Too long ? too short ? Just right ?
    What would you change about the races that you have attended in 2013 ? What is your after food expectation ? what bugs you most about organisers ? circuits ?
    Do you get fed up with the same circuit year on year ? or do you hope the circuit has not changed since last year , since you know where to go on the circuit ?
    What is your pet grievance with any particular circuit ? Can CI do anything to improve any aspect of a race ?

    I think some races are short for the types of courses we have. I would like to see most races be 80k A4's minimum 100-120k A3/Jun 120-160 A+ A1 A2

    I think it might change the dynamic of some races but would make it interesting as well. I think its a farce for some A4's to go all the way to a race for 60k.

    The main problem you have in Ireland is and i have heard this from riders is the course is too hard i will go training instead.

    Now that's my Rant over.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,277 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    "Easy" is a relative term.

    A race Timmy Barry might find easy might be tough for someone with a demanding job, a few kids and limited time to train.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 604 ✭✭✭Pawlie


    I would like to see most races be 80k A4's minimum 100-120k A3/Jun 120-160 A+ A1 A2
    Couldnt agree more with you,

    The main problem you have in Ireland is and i have heard this from riders is the course is too hard i will go training instead.
    Silly when riders say this as they would get more in doing a hard race trying to win/get placed/attack/bridge over to a group etc than doing a training spin.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,778 ✭✭✭✭Inquitus


    Pawlie wrote: »
    I would like to see most races be 80k A4's minimum 100-120k A3/Jun 120-160 A+ A1 A2
    Couldnt agree more with you,



    Silly when riders say this as they would get more in doing a hard race trying to win/get placed/attack/bridge over to a group etc than doing a training spin.

    I wonder if it's more a case of knowing they'll get dropped so not bothering on that basis?

    Personally I think getting dropped is great training, you cannot get the same intensity on a training spin, there's nothing that motivates quite like hanging on for grim death and giving it your all trying not to be dropped, gives a bloody good workout too!

    I very much enjoy the club league chase pursuits, when the A1/2 etc catch up and the pace goes through the roof.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 195 ✭✭marcofan


    "Easy" is a relative term.

    A race Timmy Barry might find easy might be tough for someone with a demanding job, a few kids and limited time to train.


    i think you will find timmy has all of the above!!!!!


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,672 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    marcofan wrote: »
    "Easy" is a relative term.

    A race Timmy Barry might find easy might be tough for someone with a demanding job, a few kids and limited time to train.


    i think you will find timmy has all of the above!!!!!

    He also has talent ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,586 ✭✭✭harringtonp


    We all know that one guy can be cruising near the front of a race and another guy hanging on for dear life at the back. It's all relative as pointed out above.

    What's important is to have races/categories where cyclists feel challenged and that is of course the idea of the categories.

    I'd agree A4 races should be 80km on average rather than 50-60, it's pace rather that that kind of distance that destroys.

    Last year the number of good juniors in early season A3 races was a problem and it meant the jump from 4 to 3 was big in those races. I know 2 guys who collected the points to get to A3 over several races and then quit for this reason. It would be nice to see this sorted in some way.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,105 ✭✭✭morana


    A group was formed in CI to s look at Road races and in particular the length of the races. Some people have had the view that if you increase the length the guys will just go slower. I accept that but after a period I think fellas will train harder and the speed will go up.

    The average race length was 70km some years ago across all road races. I know that includes everything and I honestly dont know how it compares to other countries. I do know in Denmark which has a similar membership to us there are 2 160km races every weekend.

    Personally I favoured a minimum distance approach. this would mean that if somebody was putting on a longer race that another promoter couldnt put a short one on an attract away riders. The min distance would vary with the time of the year. March 70m, may 80 miles to a max of 100 or whatever.

    As an a3 for the last few years I thought it was a pain when I would turn up to races and the A1 would be doing 6 laps and the A3 would end up doing 3 or 4 laps of the same circuit. All the marshals are in place for the A3 and I could understand why the A3 shouldnt be a lap less than the A1's. A4 would be better if the races were longer and the jump up the ranks for average riders wouldnt be as hard.


  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators, Regional West Moderators Posts: 16,716 Mod ✭✭✭✭yop


    A survey came out of our club there a month back with this exact topic in mind and it was suggested that some of the races should go out to 70k, they are anything from 42km to 60km currently.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,277 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    RobFowl wrote: »
    He also has talent ;)

    Good point. No two riders are the same. Training and commitment will only get you so far.
    morana wrote: »
    As an a3 for the last few years I thought it was a pain when I would turn up to races and the A1 would be doing 6 laps and the A3 would end up doing 3 or 4 laps of the same circuit. All the marshals are in place for the A3 and I could understand why the A3 shouldnt be a lap less than the A1's. A4 would be better if the races were longer and the jump up the ranks for average riders wouldnt be as hard.

    I see what you're saying but would there be an issue with fields getting lapped if they lower cats are doing much longer races? I saw it happen this year with a women's race who were lapped by the A1/A2 bunch and it really disrupted their race.


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  • Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 78,483 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    I don't get why A4 races "should be 80k" (or longer)

    It's an introductory level - club league races are unlikely to be much more than 50k (and early/late season a lot less). 60k or so if perfectly adequate for A4s - add distance at the next level up

    EDIT - just to add, as already highlighted by Vlad it's the relative speed of the different groups that often dictates the distances, particularly for A4s - for many circuits making them much longer runs the risk of them being caught by faster races


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,222 ✭✭✭michael196


    We noticed a distinct increase in interest and participation when we upped all categories by a lap, (22K ) bringing the A4 up to the limit at 80 K. feed back at the time , was ‘at last, a full 80 K race for A4’. The A4 catgeory distinctly welcomed the 80K distance. Not all A4 are 80 K, and we found that the riders welcomed the 80K distance as worthwhile . Match with a challenging circuit , combining fast flat roling sections , giving the riders a good work out and a good chance of placing.
    In bumping up the A4, the A3/ A2 then went from 80 to 100 K .
    I believe Moranas point is good that, 80 K should be a minimum for all A4 races. This forces the race designers to produce a circuit that lasts 80K and contains no impossible walls that has to be hit several times on a circuit based race. I Have seen local clubs produce a 50 K tough circuit, then bumping it up to 80 K, only to make the circuit significantly harder.Then pull subsequently the race as too difficult. Clubs will taper the circuit to guarantee the turnout, to cover the costs of running.
    The only constraint with bringing A1-A3 to 140-160 distances is the length of time you have your marshals on the road. Not so much the actual A1-A3 race itself rather the addition of underage racing before hand, extends the marshal stand to 4-6 hours.
    Another aspect that I believe to be of paramount importance is to vary the circuit. Put in an extra loop, or neutrailise further or change where possible. Keeps the interest alive . Hope to alternate our circuits year on year , so the rider does not get bored with a particular circuit.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,672 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    I think Timmy Barry was making more of a point about the higher levels. It's the A1/2's who should really be doing the longer races if they want to compete with their peers abroad.
    As Beasty says A4 is the bottom rung of open racing and is more of an introductory level.
    Personally I find races 40-50k to short to be too bothered doing but 80k or so with the IVCA is fine.
    Not much point the like of me doing 160kms races week in week out though ;)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    Flat, hilly, short, long - they don't decide if a race is easy.
    The quality of the field makes a race easy or hard.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 911 ✭✭✭crashoveroid


    RobFowl wrote: »
    I think Timmy Barry was making more of a point about the higher levels. It's the A1/2's who should really be doing the longer races if they want to compete with their peers abroad.
    As Beasty says A4 is the bottom rung of open racing and is more of an introductory level.
    Personally I find races 40-50k to short to be too bothered doing but 80k or so with the IVCA is fine.
    Not much point the like of me doing 160kms races week in week out though ;)

    Yes but what im saying that if you are an A4 doing a 50k Race and get enough points to upgrade to A3 and what happens if you get out of A3 in the same year which i have seen happen to a good few people. A 50k race for me is a league race. You need to be prepared so that increases are not such a shock.

    If Timmy Barry was say that A1 and A2 riders need harder races then to prepare the other riders moving up the ranks the same should be done. All these changes need to start from the bottom up not the top down.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,147 ✭✭✭Morrisseeee


    An Organizer of a race last year told me that they reverted back to an easier course because they wanted a bigger sign-up. The harder course was dropped because they reckoned (possibly from feedback or previous years sign-up) that numbers would fall away !

    As regards the length of a race it really depends on the parcours/profile, a course with a climb in it is going to be shorter.

    There's no silver bullet, you're just not going to please everyone, it's an impossible/fruitless task.

    Some races will suffer sign-up because other higher profile races are on at certain times of the year and are targeted. Newer races with new courses might also benefit as they have the 'new' attraction.

    Personally I prefer the 'one long circuit' race, ie. no laps. So if I get dropped I'll still finish the course or even struggle home (at a good gallop) with other strugglers.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,586 ✭✭✭harringtonp


    An Organizer of a race last year told me that they reverted back to an easier course because they wanted a bigger sign-up. The harder course was dropped because they reckoned (possibly from feedback or previous years sign-up) that numbers would fall away !

    Dolmen CC changed from a 3 lap 158km A1/2 in 2012 to a 2 lap 108km A1/2 in 2013 because sign up in 2012 was low and feedback was that it was a bit on the long side.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 112 ✭✭VR46


    I'm new to cycling and planning on jumping into the A4 races next year. My preferred course would be 60-80k with plenty of hills.

    If it looks like a flat course where everyone will just sit in and wait for a bunch sprint then I don't think I'd bother with it. And anything longer than 80k is a bit intimidating for someone who has never raced before.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,222 ✭✭✭michael196


    Major grain of Truth then in Timmy Barrys Article.

    Perhaps a national league of nominated races for A1-A2 ( similar to the womens racing league ), whereby the focus is on A1-A2 , tougher longer circuits ( e.g Use a stage or two out of the RAS ). Clubs could commit to an A1-A2 national league, as the fundamental mass of A1-A2 participating, ensures most costs get covered for the club on the day. That’s the type of assurance clubs need to host such a hit and miss A1-A2 category.
    I guess we do nationally have some key races for A1-A2, maybe not enough of them.
    Perhaps the RAS caters to the A1-A2 appetite, but additional key exclusive A1-A2 races prior to May will help peak the standard.

    So the look of your new race event looks like hosting an A1 A2 national league race, a separate extended A3, a full length A4 race and a womens national league race.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    I think any club that runs a race should be commended and they should organise it to whatever criteria they deem a success, be it high numbers, high difficulty, minimum logistical effort, Garda Cooperation etc...

    If any outside factors want the race format changed they'd have to provide funding/incentives/marshalls. Do CI fund open races currently?


    I haven't been disappointed by a race yet, I have been disappointed by my legs.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,450 ✭✭✭Harrybelafonte


    I'm pretty happy with race lengths in A4 to be honest. I would like to know how many A4s complaining about how "easy" the races are have accrued the points for upgrading?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭i_surge


    Prefer big circuits myself and like the route to stay the same or similar every year.

    If a race is hilly one year and then pan flat the next it makes it hard to plan which races to target early in the season.

    Roll on 2014 :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,977 ✭✭✭wav1


    Just because Timmy says it doesn't make it right.He has been a great rider through his career.but all riders dont have that talent.I n fact i think he was being a bit derogatory to the average rider who finds himself A1 or A2 after getting a few placings in the lower cats.All these riders have to be catered for also.
    If a promoter was to constantly run the length and type of race i feel he wants you would have a field of max 50 riders after a very short time.
    As far as a Nat League is concerned the riders have no appetite for it at all.The last time there was a league a few yrs back two of the rounds were in Donegal and one race attracted about 20 riders.The elite riders come together in a natural way about 5 or 6 times a year for the ''monuments'' of Irish cycling and apart from these races i think the majority of riders are quite happy with how it is.The Des Hanlon,Shay Elliott,Visit Nenagh,An Post Ras,Ras Mumhan,and the Tour of Ulster brings them together and also the Champs.If you had these type of races every week Timmy and a few of his peers would find themselves in a very lonely place.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,672 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    wav1 wrote: »
    Just because Timmy says it doesn't make it right.He has been a great rider through his career.but all riders dont have that talent.I n fact i think he was being a bit derogatory to the average rider who finds himself A1 or A2 after getting a few placings in the lower cats.All these riders have to be catered for also.

    I suspect there's no one here with anywhere near as much experience of race organisation to argue with you......


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 382 ✭✭12 sprocket


    I think any club that runs a race should be commended and they should organise it to whatever criteria they deem a success, be it high numbers, high difficulty, minimum logistical effort, Garda Cooperation etc...

    If any outside factors want the race format changed they'd have to provide funding/incentives/marshalls. Do CI fund open races currently?


    I haven't been disappointed by a race yet, I have been disappointed by my legs.
    Pete
    That's a great post and so true as its the only way clubs can sustain organising their races, it has to fit in with their local environment their philosophy of what cycling is about and their financial position.
    There is also a need for a league as the women have. to get all the top riders racing together a number of times during the season.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,365 ✭✭✭death1234567


    Yes but what im saying that if you are an A4 doing a 50k Race and get enough points to upgrade to A3 and what happens if you get out of A3 in the same year which i have seen happen to a good few people. A 50k race for me is a league race. You need to be prepared so that increases are not such a shock.

    If Timmy Barry was say that A1 and A2 riders need harder races then to prepare the other riders moving up the ranks the same should be done. All these changes need to start from the bottom up not the top down.
    Problem with that point of view is that you are changing the structure to suit a tiny minority of riders. The category's should cater for the majority of riders not a select few.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,222 ✭✭✭michael196


    As the OP, Thank you for the replies, and the insights . A very lively responsive debate followed, from which I have learned a few Items.

    Think Wav1 hit the nail on the head. In summary, the A1-A2 are catered to with several choice events over the course of the year. Vast majority across the categories, are happy with current offerings.

    Certain minimum distances should really be adhered for categories, and courses should be realistic , to provide 2-4 hours of a race. Flatter courses have a role by providing length to test stamina and endurance. Any course does not have to be monumentally hilly or specifically tough.

    In addition it is up to all riders to support as much as possible races provided for their own category.

    It is an organisers headache when a low turnout occurs. It can be difficult to clearly understanding the reason for a low turnout, which puts the following years re -run immediately in jeopardy.

    Don’t be shy about providing feedback to organisers as they are learning also and courses can always be improved.

    I always appreciate the reach of boards.ie /cycling, achieving 1700 views over 1.5 days, on this one topic alone. It is a great resource and read by many across the spectrum of cycling. One of the few ways of directly hearing the views of riders on events, both pre the event and post the event, not to mention being a great sounding board for ideas.


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