ATH Knockout match: D.Q vs CastorTroy

Bounty Hunter

time for our final quarter finalist to be decided and it's D.Q vs CastorTroy and this time i'd like to thank Omackeral for the question...

Simplified version of the rules:

I will post a topic and you have to post your response including why you made that choice within a given time limit (before the next match is scheduled to begin), take care while making your responses however as the other contestant can counter your arguement i.e pointing out possible flaws in what youve said.

*you can only counter an arguement two times so make sure your point is worth making. If someone's defense of their arguement isnt good it will count against them.

*You can use the same answer as your opponent if you wish i.e you agree with their choice however its hard to win a debate when your making the same points someone has already made

see the OP of the main thread for further details or if any examples are needed check out previous years competitions.

Q: If you could book one WrestleMania match that we haven't seen, and should have, what would it be and why?"

Note that these matches must have been possible, so talent must have been on the books at the same time for a match to occur. Eg Andre vs Big Show doesn't count, nor would Sting vs Taker.


after your first post: why would your choice be better than your oponents?

---

so have at it and g'luck lads!

D.Q

Really difficult question. I was running over and over in my head trying to go back in time and re work wrestlemanias to try and find my dream match. That one big match that never happened at Mania, and then it hit me, there is absolutely no need to go back and change anything.

If one name has come to define Wrestlemania, to define the grandeur, the spectacle, that bottled lightning, its The Undertaker.

The Undertakers history at Wrestlemania is a well worn path at this stage so I don't feel I need to go into details regarding the streak. The fact is, the Undertaker has fought them all, except one man.

You all know where this is going now, the face of the modern era, the only truely active megastar the WWE has today, John Cena.


For the last few years, the possibility of someone ending the streak has been as important, if not more important than the WWE title match. Basically since wm25 and the first match with Michaels, the streak has stole the show.

we all know that there is a 99% chance that Taker will retire with that streak intact, but its that 1%. That superkick into a pedigree moment, that allows us to suspend our disbelief and recapture the magic of not knowing for one seriously long two count.

John Cena is the only man on the roster that is a believable threat to the Undertakers streak, and its one of the last remaining huge matches with this current crop of superstars This match makes sense on absolutely every level. Both incredible storytellers in the ring, both have that electricity and charisma needed to captivate a stadium, sell a looooad of tickets and give us that magic feeling of not knowing whats going to happen next.

CastorTroy

Was trying to think of a rivalry that never really had a match at Wrestlemania and I decided on one that wouldn’t be main event material but one people would be interested in seeing even though they would know it would be pure car crash tv with an obvious outcome.

That match: Vince McMahon vs Eric Bischoff vs Paul Heyman in a triple threat.

I know we’ve seen one on one and they weren’t exactly wrestling masterclasses. But one possible solution would be to make it a triple threat tag match with each promoter having a representative for their companies as partners. Then make it work on intergender rules where promoters have to be in the ring together or their partners are in together.

D.Q

Was trying to think of a rivalry that never really had a match at Wrestlemania and I decided on one that wouldn’t be main event material but one people would be interested in seeing even though they would know it would be pure car crash tv with an obvious outcome.

the exact opposite of what I was trying to achieve in my match. As a jaded wrestling fan, one of the worst feelings in the world is guessing an outcome or worse,knowing an out come of a match because so and so has heat backstage or because he's "being pushed". Knowing the result of a wrestling match or angle is absolute suicide in terms of fan interest.

Probably the biggest and best angle of the last ten years was the infamous pipebomb. Because it allowed us to be completely engrossed in the not knowing. That what makes it so magic. Rock coming back to host, we all basically knew, but there was that small doubt. And when his music hit, it achieved that reaction.

Say what you want about Cena, but he can get a reaction. He might not be the best technically, but as far as telling a story and getting people emotionally invested, hes one of the best in the business. If he even slightly, subtly heeled it up, a la ONS06 or at MITB, he's have that crowd eating out of his hand at WM. The last remnants of the attitude era, a golden age for so many of us, his legacy under threat by the one man that has come to embody everything we dislike about the current product. The story practically sells itself, and its something people could really invest in.

I believe Cena and Undertaker would achieve that reaction. With the exception of Vince v Shane at WM17( which wasn't so much a match as a live action soap opera) anythng with Vince in the ring is a bad idea. Don't get me wrong, Austin whaling on him was fine, but no one wants to see Vince presented as a credible threat, even to Paul Heyman or Eric Bischoff

That match: Vince McMahon vs Eric Bischoff vs Paul Heyman in a triple threat.

I really don't feel that sort of thing belongs at a Wrestlemania. Fair enough a Raw or even a B show ppv, but Wrestlemania? The showcase of the immortals?

Cena vs Undertaker is a Marquee match, and the last fresh match for the Undertaker. Its money.

I know we’ve seen one on one and they weren’t exactly wrestling masterclasses.

But one possible solution would be to make it a triple threat tag match with each promoter having a representative for their companies as partners. Then make it work on intergender rules where promoters have to be in the ring together or their partners are in together.

While this does solve the problem of the three lads complete lack of ANY technical wrestling ability, you have to remember how WWE booked any of the WCW/ECW guys coming in. The likes of Flair, Goldberg, Hall, Nash and Hogan, were never associated with WCW. Anyone associated with WCW/ECW was buried. By the end of the invasion angle it was basically WWE vs WWE. Edge fought Test at Survivor series in 2001. Team alliance featured Stone cold, Kurt Angle and Shane Mcmahon.

So I mean who is representing WWE in this match? And who is representing WCW, OR ECW?

Austin v Stasiak v Rhyno?

CastorTroy

I would just look at the Taker/Cena streak match as a waste. Taker could elevate someone else in that spot instead of giving it away to someone who doesn’t need the help, especially Mr Main Event himself. I would rather see someone like Bryan or someone else who’s got the ability to put on a good match go against Taker since that would put them in one of the main events and put the spotlight on them, while Cena would be guaranteed a main event spot anyway. It’s the same argument for not wanting Sting or someone else coming in for the streak match. Push existing talent, not temporary workers or the guys already on top.

As for Bischoff/Heyman/McMahon not belonging at Wrestlemania, where was the McMahon/Bret match or the McMahon/Trump match? It’s a match that people will be watching to see how badly each of them will be humiliated. The audience who were around for ECW and WCW will get some enjoyment from Heyman going after Bischoff with a Kendo stick. And who would represent each company? You say they were all buried, but each company had guys who became champions after WWE took them on. So Bischoff paired with Booker T and RVD paired with Heyman while Vince would have Jericho, as examples. But unlike the Bret match(which was more to just keep Bret happy) this would have the 3 guys on an even playing field with all getting their shots at each other.

Also back when this match would’ve been possible, before Bret or Trump, having this match announced would’ve got people interested, while if it was announced tomorrow that Cena would meet Taker at WM XXX, which is possible, it would mainly be met with groans.
What would they base the match on? For Heyman, Bischoff and Vince the history is there already. You bring up about Cena representing what we dislike about the product but how would that tie into Taker? Is Cena going to come out and say “Just to pee you all off, I’m going to beat Taker”? Last year a heel Punk only got a proper story against Taker due to Paul Bearer’s death, so how is Cena going to feud with Taker when an experienced heel had trouble?

D.Q

I would just look at the Taker/Cena streak match as a waste. Taker could elevate someone else in that spot instead of giving it away to someone who doesn’t need the help, especially Mr Main Event himself. I would rather see someone like Bryan or someone else who’s got the ability to put on a good match go against Taker since that would put them in one of the main events and put the spotlight on them, while Cena would be guaranteed a main event spot anyway. It’s the same argument for not wanting Sting or someone else coming in for the streak match. Push existing talent, not temporary workers or the guys already on top.

That argument makes no sense. People want the biggest matchest at Mania, why not book Tyson Kidd vs the Undertaker, he'd be able to put on a good match. Its about the spectacle.

Cena could put on a great match with Taker. He's a good size for him, and a good pace.

As for Bischoff/Heyman/McMahon not belonging at Wrestlemania, where was the McMahon/Bret match or the McMahon/Trump match?

Unfortunately at Wrestlemania. Surely as someone who favours pushing new talent, you can't justify giving one of their spots to the likes of this. Lower card talented guys work hard all year and then this car crash variety show gets a spot of mania ahead of them.

It’s a match that people will be watching to see how badly each of them will be humiliated. The audience who were around for ECW and WCW will get some enjoyment from Heyman going after Bischoff with a Kendo stick.

I really dont believe people want to see three non wrestling, old men humiliate themselves with weapons at Wrestlemania. Even comedically, it runs out of ground fairly quick.

And who would represent each company? You say they were all buried, but each company had guys who became champions after WWE took them on. So Bischoff paired with Booker T and RVD paired with Heyman while Vince would have Jericho, as examples. But unlike the Bret match(which was more to just keep Bret happy) this would have the 3 guys on an even playing field with all getting their shots at each other.

Booker T was buried pretty bad. Didn't Rock pretend not to know who he was? So Vince would have the ECW and WCW alumni Chris Jericho? How does that make any sense? The booking of this match is a logistical nightmare as well, the intergender tag rules would make it very slow and boring to watch, IMO.

What would they base the match on? For Heyman, Bischoff and Vince the history is there already. You bring up about Cena representing what we dislike about the product but how would that tie into Taker? Is Cena going to come out and say “Just to pee you all off, I’m going to beat Taker”? Last year a heel Punk only got a proper story against Taker due to Paul Bearer’s death, so how is Cena going to feud with Taker when an experienced heel had trouble?

They would base the match on the very simple story of the verteran champion having one more thing to achieve in this business, the streak. They would base the match on the fact that Cena might just be the one to do it. They don't have to break kayfabe to get that point across. It would work on a casual and smart fan level.

Cena and Taker are both such huge stars that you dont have to shoe horn in a pointless personal feud. Its just two great warriors, one has to be the best, let them fight on the biggest stage of them all.

I dont mean Cena heels it up to the extent that he steals someones ashes. I meant just on the night, no smiling, no joking. Serious promos leading up to the event.

I'd book it so they dont even come face to face before Mania. Just have the bell messing with Cena during matches, and have Cena cutting promos. We all know Cena is unreal when he wants to get serious.





I just think that if this question had of been, "Book one Backlash match that we haven't seen before" then you would have been on to a winner, but this is Wrestlemania!

CastorTroy

At the time the match would've been possible it would've been a time when people would've wanted to see it, with both ECW and WCW fresh in people's memories. This would've been a (scripted) resolution to a long time rivalry which fans had watched play out across the likes of Raw and Nitro over the years. Yet you're saying a rivalry, which included attempting to put each other out of business, that had gone on for years doesn't deserve a match at Wrestlemania? We’ve seen matches with buildups of weeks that make the PPV.

Kidd versus Taker? Now that’s the match you should’ve chosen then I may have conceded.
I just don’t think Taker’s one appearance of the year should be used on the guy we’ve been watching all year preventing others from getting a decent push. They may be able to entertain for the night but then we have to deal with the fallout for a long time after that. If Cena loses, they spend the next year building the rematch similar to the drawn out Cena/Rock 2 and if Cena somehow wins we have to deal with “The man who broke Undertaker’s streak”. Either way he would just become more annoying.

With Vince, there’s a pretty good chance he would win, would say it proves he’s the better man and that’ll be it. No rematch or anything of the sort