Court Summons - Careless Driving

PLaff1

I was pulled over by the gardai for bad driving and I am looking for some opinions

Cathalog

I'm not the best with legal questions, so take what I say with a pinch of salt.

However, I thought it would be worth sharing what citizensinformation says:

Careless driving: This is defined as 'driving a vehicle in a public place without due care and attention'. The Gardai enforce careless driving offences and this involves a mandatory court appearance. A driver charged and subsequently found guilty of careless driving will receive 5 penalty points on their licence. Drivers may also be fined up to a maximum of €1,500, or given a prison sentence up to a maximum of 3 months. (You should note the courts also have discretion to impose both the €1,500 fine and the 3 month prison sentence together).

(http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/driving_offences/penalty_points_for_driving_offences.html)

What confuses me is that the guard said you'd only be getting 2 penalty points?

PLaff1

That's what i was worried about, the 5 points i would take but a fine of up to 1,500 euro is a lot of money yeah, i asked him was that 2 points and a fine and he said "yes" but maybe he misheard me. Would it best to get a solicitor would you think?

coylemj

He gave you a formal caution under S.104 (see below) which means that they are leaving the option open to prosecute you for dangerous (S.53) or careless (S.52) driving.

If you are charged with dangerous driving, it's open to the judge to reduce it to careless driving and convict you so nobody is ever charged with dangerous and careless driving in respect of the same incident.

If you get a summons and it only mentions Section 52, I'd go into court, plead guilty and consider myself very lucky. Either way you should not go into court without a solicitor for a S.52 or S.53 summons.

Just to put it in context and this is what the judge will hear from the Gardai - you overtook on a double-white line in darkness, then you tailgated another car in an impatient attempt to overtake him, while still on a stretch of road with a double-white line. I think penalty points might be the least of your worries.

S.47 below refers to exceeding the speed limit which I believe doesn't apply in this case.

104.—Where a person is charged with an offence under section 47 , 52 or 53 of this Act, he shall not be convicted of the offence unless either—

(a) he was warned at the time at which the offence is alleged to have been committed, or within twenty-four hours thereafter, that the question of prosecuting him for an offence under some one of those sections would be considered, or .....

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/sec0104.html#sec104

Pro Hoc Vice

coylemj wrote: »

He gave you a formal caution under S.104 (see below) which means that they are leaving the option open to prosecute you for dangerous (S.53) or careless (S.52) driving.

If you are charged with dangerous driving, it's open to the judge to reduce it to careless driving and convict you so nobody is ever charged with dangerous and careless driving in respect of the same incident.

If you get a summons and it only mentions Section 52, I'd go into court, plead guilty and consider myself very lucky. Either way you should not go into court without a solicitor for a S.52 or S.53 summons.

Just to put it in context and this is what the judge will hear from the Gardai - you overtook on a double-white line in darkness, then you tailgated another car in an impatient attempt to overtake him, while still on a stretch of road with a double-white line. I think penalty points might be the least of your worries.

S.47 below refers to exceeding the speed limit which I believe doesn't apply in this case.

104.—Where a person is charged with an offence under section 47 , 52 or 53 of this Act, he shall not be convicted of the offence unless either—

(a) he was warned at the time at which the offence is alleged to have been committed, or within twenty-four hours thereafter, that the question of prosecuting him for an offence under some one of those sections would be considered, or .....

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/sec0104.html#sec104

Section 104 was repealed years ago, also section 51 (a) added the offense of
“Driving without reasonable consideration." In fact so much of the 61 act has been repealed or amended its a complex area of law. For example all intoxication Offenses are contained in the 2010 Act not the 61 Act.

timmy4u2

Driving without reasonable consideration would be 2 points. 4 on conviction.
Crossing continious white line is also 2 and 4.
You say he mentioned something to you about due care and dangerous driving.
That would be the oral warning for careless driving Dangerous driving and driving without due care and attention. He would have asked you did you understand it. It does not necessarly mean dangerous driving and careless driving but its part of the legal warning and he would have stated that it would be considered.

If he told you that it was 2 points it is most likely that its a ticket for driving without due consideration and the oral warning is for if you ignore the fine.
Could also be dangerous overtaking and that is 2 and 5.
If you get away with just that thank your lucky stars as I assume that you are talking about Barna, outside NCW where you are descending pretty sharply on a sweeping left hander, you crossed into the main oncoming lane, which is outside the climbing lane and then proceeded to drive extremely close to another car.
Only thing you would have a defence for is "bullying your way " inbetween the cars because they should facilitare you having overtaken them, whether you were right or wrong.

PLaff1

Not sure. As i said i know full well what i did was wrong, just worried i could be put off the road for it which would be worst case scenario for me. Thanks for your replies.

timmy4u2

PLaff1 wrote: »

Yeah i think that is the stretch of road all right. As i said i know full well what i did was wrong, just worried i could be put off the road for it which would be worst case scenario for me. Thanks for your replies.

You are travelling down hill there. If you go anybit out of control because it is a left hander you will go straight into the oncoming traffic.
If you know the Gardas name, and if not make an effort to find out and meet him personally.
You will then find out what the score is

Mikros

There are basically 2 possible ways it could go for you -

1. A fixed penalty notice for driving without due care and attention - €80 fine and 2 penalty points

2. A summons for either careless or dangerous driving which will involve a court appearance and hefty fine and/or disqualification.

The decision entirely rests with the guard in question and his or her opinion of your driving. Attempting to overtake 3 cars at a known blackspot, on a bend and then driving 2-3 metres behind another car travelling around 80-100 km/h would warrant a court appearance in my opinion. The fact you were formally cautioned would suggest the guards might agree.

All you can do is sit tight and see what comes in the letter box.

Zambia

Deal with it when it arrives.

Shocking driving by the way

PLaff1

Zambia wrote: »

Deal with it when it arrives.

Shocking driving by the way

Very useful, thanks.

timmy4u2

Mikros wrote: »

There are basically 2 possible ways it could go for you -

1. A fixed penalty notice for driving without due care and attention - €80 fine and 2 penalty points

2. A summons for either careless or dangerous driving which will involve a court appearance and hefty fine and/or disqualification.

The decision entirely rests with the guard in question and his or her opinion of your driving. Attempting to overtake 3 cars at a known blackspot, on a bend and then driving 2-3 metres behind another car travelling around 80-100 km/h would warrant a court appearance in my opinion. The fact you were formally cautioned would suggest the guards might agree.

All you can do is sit tight and see what comes in the letter box.

In fairness the roadway has been totally realigned and has lost its blackspot status.
The Garda will have to prepare a file and submit it to his Superintendent for directions on behalf of the DPP if he has decided not to go down the fixed penalty route.
Having said that the driving was not good and warrants at least a recommendation for a prosecution for dangerous driving.

returnNull

PLaff1 wrote: »

Very useful, thanks.

its only useful if you take it onboard,that type of driving kills people.

PLaff1

returnNull wrote: »

its only useful if you take it onboard,that type of driving kills people.

Yes I know, but I wasn't here to argue how bad my driving was at the time, I was here to ask what the possible repercussions would/could be which would be fully deserved.

Plates

PLaff1 wrote: »

Yes I know, but I wasn't here to argue how bad my driving was at the time, I was here to ask what the possible repercussions would/could be which would be fully deserved.

Losing your license should be the repercussion. Not sure what type of feedback you expected by posting this. Presume you're looking for some sort of loophole or quick way out of it?

PLaff1

timmy4u2 wrote: »

In fairness the roadway has been totally realigned and has lost its blackspot status.
The Garda will have to prepare a file and submit it to his Superintendent for directions on behalf of the DPP if he has decided not to go down the fixed penalty route.
Having said that the driving was not good and warrants at least a recommendation for a prosecution for dangerous driving.

Yes the road is completely different to the old road which had the blackspot status. At the time I felt I had a decent view of the road ahead and could clearly see that no oncoming cars were approaching. I felt i had space and time to overtake the slow moving vehicles relatively safely. It was until I reached the first car that I could see car lights well in the distance and pulled in.

Having said that I did cross a double white line on a slight bend which used to be/ still is an accident blackspot and drove in close proximity to the car in front in order to overtake on the next possible straight stretch of road coming into NCW. I didn't argue with the gardai at the time and won't argue that it was risky/dangerous driving and fully warrants a court appearance and the penalties that come with it. I definitely won't do something like that again. Lesson learnt.

PLaff1

Plates wrote: »

Losing your license should be the repercussion. Not sure what type of feedback you expected by posting this. Presume you're looking for some sort of loophole or quick way out of it?

Not at all, I had originally posted looking for the possible legal penalties - court appearance, penalty points, fine etc. which will undoubtedly be on the way and fully deserved as I wasn't sure of the possible penalties involved. I wasn't looking for feedback on how bad my driving was at the time.

timmy4u2

PLaff1 wrote: »

Yes the road is completely different to the old road which had the blackspot status. At the time I felt I had a decent view of the road ahead and could clearly see that no oncoming cars were approaching. I felt i had space and time to overtake the slow moving vehicles relatively safely. It was until I reached the first car that I could see car lights well in the distance and pulled in.

Having said that I did cross a double white line on a slight bend which used to be/ still is an accident blackspot and drove in close proximity to the car in front in order to overtake on the next possible straight stretch of road coming into NCW. I didn't argue with the gardai at the time and won't argue that it was risky/dangerous driving and fully warrants a court appearance and the penalties that come with it. I definitely won't do something like that again. Lesson learnt.

Well I do think that you are contrite and that you have put your hands up an accepted what you have done, so if you got away with a loophole it would not be a terrible thing for the public.
Just yesterday an alleged drugs dealer got away on a loophole with an alleged stash of €1, 000, 000 worth of drugs.
Look at the damage that amount of drugs could cause.
If the patrol car did not have "traffic Corps" written on it, it is a local patrol car-unless unmarked- so get your dates and times right and pop into NCW Garda Station and find out who the Garda was and speak with him.
Do it now rather than later. Dialogue is always best.

Pro Hoc Vice

timmy4u2 wrote: »

Well I do think that you are contrite and that you have put your hands up an accepted what you have done, so if you got away with a loophole it would not be a terrible thing for the public.
Just yesterday an alleged drugs dealer got away on a loophole with an alleged stash of €1, 000, 000 worth of drugs.
Look at the damage that amount of drugs could cause.
If the patrol car did not have "traffic Corps" written on it, it is a local patrol car-unless unmarked- so get your dates and times right and pop into NCW Garda Station and find out who the Garda was and speak with him.
Do it now rather than later. Dialogue is always best.

I really don't like the use of the word loophole in the above circumstances as the court found there had been breach of constitutional rights.

timmy4u2

infosys wrote: »

I really don't like the use of the word loophole in the above circumstances as the court found there had been breach of constitutional rights.

A loophole is a way of escaping a difficulty through ambigiuity or ommission. Breach of constitutional right may be through ambigiuity or an ommission, hence a loophole

234

timmy4u2 wrote: »

A loophole is a way of escaping a difficulty through ambigiuity or ommission. Breach of constitutional right may be through ambigiuity or an ommission, hence a loophole

The use of the term "loophole" when referring to breaches of constitutional rights denigrated the value of the right.

While we may not like it that alleged criminals can avoid a successful prosecution because of a right, it is a necessary state of affairs. Unless you uphold the value of these rights, irrespective of the moral blameworthiness of the person in question, you can end up reducing the protection that such rights afford to the innocent (And yes, innocent people do need rights).

hullaballoo

Unfortunately, the OP has closed his account so there is no need for this thread to continue.

timmy4u2, please read the forum charter.