Thieving Tenant

Big Davey

I am in the process of evicting a Tenant who is over 3k in arrears. This situation has been ongoing for several years Tenant was bad to pay but always had an excuse or sob story and as I am a decent person I felt sorry for the family but it has come to a head now all the correct procedures have been followed.
Warning Issued
14 day warning issued
Termination order issued.
A case opened up with PRTB
Social welfare informed.
This Tenant is getting rent allowance but not paying rent I recon he is gambling and drinking the money the family have also had two sun holidays this year while I pay the mortgage (facebook is a handy tool used correctly)
Question 1) Is this considered fraud ? Should I contact the social welfare fraud department ?
The Social Welfare person who I am dealing with seems quite soft so dont think he is going to do anything he does not HAVE to do.
Question 2) I would like to inform the council / corporation of this persons actions and the pending case as I know this family are on the housing list.
Question 3) Will the social welfare bail them out and pay their arrears ?
I have an appointment with a solicitor next week and the solicitor is confident that I will get my money we will "garnish" their social welfare payments for a few years till all is paid including court costs.
I have been renting out houses for nearly 20 years but never been caught like this. I would have never let the house to this guy but he moved in at a later date his girlfriend rented the house off me as a single mother originally and then this snake moved in after a few months.
If it costs me 10k to get the 3k off them I will do it I will take €5 a week of them for the rest of their lives my blood is up on this if I can get him put in prison for non payment of the money I will If I can block them ever getting a corpo house I will I have incriminating text messages where he is telling me he is doing a bit of work on the side and will clear his arrears in a few months I spoke to a IT guy who can get them to be court admissible. These people get the genuine unemployed decent people a bad name I have let houses to many people on rent allowance in the past and never had a problem so I will NOT allow this thieving scum to change me or my opinion of other humans in general. If you can think of any advice or any way to teach these people a lesson please post it here or PM me.
Thank you.

djimi

Concentrate on getting out of your house for the moment; that is your main priority right now. Worry about revenge afterwards when the chances of his retaliating by completely destroying your property are lessened. A PRTB case and ultimate eviction is going to take a long time.

Big Davey

djimi wrote: »

Concentrate on getting out of your house for the moment; that is your main priority right now. Worry about revenge afterwards when the chances of his retaliating by completely destroying your property are lessened. A PRTB case and ultimate eviction is going to take a long time.

Thanks for the Advice.
Firstly if he damages the property he will pay or go to prison.
Secondly I dont care how long it takes I am prepared for anything.
Thirdly with regards to fearing this person or being worried about damage etc for every action there is a reaction Ive been around the block a few times already I am not bothered.

runawaybishop

Whether there was a lesson to be taught or not you should report him for fraud anyway.

Big Davey

runawaybishop wrote: »

Whether there was a lesson to be taught or not you should report him for fraud anyway.

When I hinted towards the Social Welfare guy about it he did not want to even touch it ! I think he wants an easy life sure its only tax payers money anyway. I will report them for fraud for sure.
Thanks

runawaybishop

Big Davey wrote: »

When I hinted towards the Social Welfare guy about it he did not want to even touch it ! I think he wants an easy life sure its only tax payers money anyway. I will report them for fraud for sure.
Thanks

Don't be hinting so

Big Davey

runawaybishop wrote: »

Don't be hinting so

I wont ! Its his Job he should be all over this like a rash IMO.

Big Davey

Forgot to mention this Tenant told me he had a "relation" working in the "dole" and gave a big smile and a wink ! is there any way I could find out the names of the people working in his social welfare office and try and match up the surname and maybe find his relation or is there any internal Social Welfare procedure that I could relay my suspicions to ?

runawaybishop

You can do it all on-line

https://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/secure/ReportFraud.aspx

intellectual dosser

I'd be with djimi and say get him out for a start, but have a good long think about spending so much time and money going after the 3k, once he's out he won't be your problem anymore - perhaps a chance to be completely free of him and his tricks.

foggy_lad

Big Davey wrote: »

I wont ! Its his Job he should be all over this like a rash IMO.

Report him to the Community welfare section in the local health centre, this is where rent allowance cases are processed.

intellectual dosser wrote: »

I'd be with djimi and say get him out for a start, but have a good long think about spending so much time and money going after the 3k, once he's out he won't be your problem anymore - perhaps a chance to be completely free of him and his tricks.

Get him out and then nail him, get him jailed for non ayment of his debt if he doesn't pay up. this only involves signing a warrant in the local courthouse when a current payment is late by a couple of weeks.

Santa Cruz

Renting property is a business. There's no room for feeling sorry for anyone. Does the bank manager feel sorry for you?

Pawwed Rig

foggy_lad wrote: »

get him jailed for non ayment of his debt if he doesn't pay up. this only involves signing a warrant in the local courthouse when a current payment is late by a couple of weeks.

If someone does get jailed for this do they still have the liability when they get out or is it one or the other? I can't imagine anyone being jailed indefinitely.

Big Davey

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Renting property is a business. There's no room for feeling sorry for anyone. Does the bank manager feel sorry for you?

You are correct.

Big Davey

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

If someone does get jailed for this do they still have the liability when they get out or is it one or the other? I can't imagine anyone being jailed indefinitely.

From my understanding they can be jailed but the debt does NOT go away.

Mrs OBumble

A minor word of pragmatic caution: you want them out - but they have to go somewhere. If you make it too difficult, they will have less change of finding somewhere else to go, so more chance of staying.

So I would put the revenge on hold 'til the house is clear. Just saying.

foggy_lad

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

If someone does get jailed for this do they still have the liability when they get out or is it one or the other? I can't imagine anyone being jailed indefinitely.

IANAL but AFAIK the time served will cancel the amount listed on the Warrant in court but more debt can accrue while the person is in prison.

murphaph

Get the tenant out and move on. I've heard this solicitor talk before. The reality is that any attempt to recover the lost rent will be fruitless and just cost you more. There's no practical protection regardless of what legal theory might say. Garnering a social welfare payment in practice means getting €2 a week or something. The tenant will in reality never pay back what they have stolen.

Big Davey

murphaph wrote: »

Get the tenant out and move on. I've heard this solicitor talk before. The reality is that any attempt to recover the lost rent will be fruitless and just cost you more. There's no practical protection regardless of what legal theory might say. Garnering a social welfare payment in practice means getting €2 a week or something. The tenant will in reality never pay back what they have stolen.

I suggest you take a look at the PRTB website and the sample/ previous cases etc its not quite as simple as that.
The reality is that the attitude you are conveying is exactly why these tow rags try and roll decent hardworking people like myself. If it turns out to be €2 a week I will take it and as soon as he misses a payment get him put in prison. I may even put the debt in the hands of a professional debt collection agency but I wont walk away.
Thanks

djimi

Have you sought any legal advice about this matter? Has anyone sat down with you and explained the exact process in detail, and the likelihood of actually recovering any money in a realistic time frame?

By the sounds of it, you have already made up your mind what you want to do, and so I hope it works out for you and this guy gets what is coming to him. However, just bear in mind that this process is going to take a lot of time, effort and money, and at some point you need to ask yourself is it worth it, or are you better off getting shut of him and moving on. If he is gambling away his social welfare money, then there is little chance that he is going to pay you €3000 back. Is it worth all of that effort and expense for maybe less than a tenner a month?

murphaph

Big Davey wrote: »

I suggest you take a look at the PRTB website and the sample/ previous cases etc its not quite as simple as that.
The reality is that the attitude you are conveying is exactly why these tow rags try and roll decent hardworking people like myself. If it turns out to be €2 a week I will take it and as soon as he misses a payment get him put in prison. I may even put the debt in the hands of a professional debt collection agency but I wont walk away.
Thanks

Your decision Davey. I'm talking as someone who lost a lot of rent (commercial overholding tenant) to this and despite all the bluster from solicitors and barristers the debt has never been repaid. It's not worth your sanity chasing these shadows and it will eat you up I promise. A debt collection firm won't be interested in chasing a debt from someone with no assets who's on welfare by the way.

You won't get him committed to prison either because that is always in the hands of a (more often than not out of touch) judge who'll swallow his sob story about his deprived childhood etc. etc. and then give him a telling off before reducing it to €1 a week.

The system is simply not set up to properly deal with delinquent tenants like yours. It might pretend to be, but in reality it is not and that is why these tenants play it. An experienced LL would not dream of chasing this money. It's not dissimilar to the way a bank might write off a bad debt but as I said, your money, your call. Best of luck (genuinely) to you whatever you decide to do.

Big Davey

I will keep you all updated as things go on.

lukesmom

That's awful claiming rent allowance and not paying rent. We used to get rent allowance years ago and we made it so it went directly to the landlord and we paid the top up into LL bank account. If you ever get more RA tenants you might look into having it paid directly to you. In the meantime I would concentrate on just getting this swine out of your property. No need to inform council either just put it down to very bad luck and move on. It would be great if you got the 5K as it's a lot of money but I can't see how you will.

Sala

I would be a little bit wary about reporting him to the SW before you get him out. If they freeze / reduce his payments you haven't a hope in hell of him leaving

Big Davey

I think this one is going to be a long one. Tenant is refusing to answer, calls, texts, letters. Social welfare man is REFUSING to make contact with them and is WAITING for them to contact him ! I have also asked him to meet me at his office as I have further information for him and he REFUSED ! Prtb are getting a court date sorted for January and my solicitor is unable to do anything till that happens. All the while this tenant is spending tax payers money on luxuries
Fancy car
Huge tv
Smart phone
iPad
I am paying the mortgage on the house they are living in aswell as my own. It is my daughters first Christmas and I will do my best not to let this affect me.
I am thinking
Joe Duffy Show ?
Viper Debt Recovery Services ?
Go into the Dail and shout my head off ?
Provide the info to papers and let the general public see exactly what these lazy good for nothing Civil Servants are doing and how tax payers money is being used.

Pawwed Rig

Davey, this stuff happens every day. Unfortunately the LL is given the least sympathy of any other group in the media and by politicians so causing a fuss will probably get you nowhere.

djimi

If the PRTB are going to sort a hearing for January then my advice would be sit tight and put it to the back of your mind until after Christmas. Not much more you can do now; Joe Duffy isnt going to achieve anything and I strongly suspect that going through a debt collection agency would screw any case you might have with the PRTB (you cannot take measure to circumvent tenancy law and the process that is laid out to deal with these issues).

gibo_ie

Davey,
As a landlord of many years I can tell you this will be a struggle just to get these people out of your property. Realistically your chances of getting any money back are almost zero unfortunately. I have won a court case for almost €2k and had the sheriff visit to get the money, but of course he came back with "they cant afford to pay you anything" so end of story!!! Typical in this country unfortunately.
My advice to you is to try to find some way just to get them to leave voluntarily, firstly you must sign their rent allowance form each month to confirm they are tenants and still living there, also yearly there is a review to show if any monies are outstanding. If you aren't signing these forms then who is??
You need to demand to speak with someone in the health center, the CWO (Community welfare officer) is the one who controls this and I have had no issues speaking with them in the past, it is their job to ensure payments are being issued for the correct reasons.
If you have concerns with the CWO officer in your area then move up the line and make a complaint. If you cut off part of their income source they may want to move on themselves to somewhere they will get money paid to them.

Speak to the local Gardai and see if they are on their radar, if not it may be possible to put them on the radar as such, visits to the house or drive bys constantly can sometimes help with their desire to move on.

While you cant do anything like changing locks, cutting off electricity etc... unfortunately, you can contact the providers of same with your concerns as landlord and see if bill names have been changed into their names for example. If there is a large outstanding bill you can advise them of the issues you are having in getting rent and they usually will be suspicious of tenant and start hounding them for outstanding bills, which is nice to have support for you!

As i said, i have had these issues a few times, just keep perusing BUT keep in mind you probably wont get any outstanding monies due to the way the PRTB and courts operate, even if you win your case!!!
Sorry to be honest!!
But best of luck to you!!!!

swht

A family member had an issue with social welfare a while back and the only way he resolved it was to ask them about the complaints procedure and how to contact the ombudsman. The tenant may well know someone in the office if they are doing nothing about this.

If it was me I would ring the social welfare office back and if they still refuse to do anything I would ask 'how would one make a complaint about impropriety by a social welfare officer, is there an ombudsman, what are their contact details?'

Mrs OBumble

gibo_ie wrote: »

Speak to the local Gardai and see if they are on their radar, if not it may be possible to put them on the radar as such, visits to the house or drive bys constantly can sometimes help with their desire to move on.

Another word of warning for you: if the local civil servants aren't willing to have a confrontation with your tenants, then it's possible that they the tenants have more "involvements" or "connections" than you might know about.

Yes, it's not right that theiving scum should be doing this.

But someimes you need to be pragmatic about how you deal with the issue, especially if you live in the area; you don't want these folks assaulting you, or worse.

And you need to keep the big picture in mind. You want these people out of your house, and you want the house back in good shape. Don't take unnecessary risks.

murphaph

Unfortunately I suspect this tenant will just ignore the PRTB adjudication and sit tight until the Sheriff is about to be called in, then he'll do a bunk. Between PRTB and Sheriff you've got to go to (at least) the district court (or depending on amount owed) possibly to the circuit court to get your order for possession. Realistically you will never get any money Davey so if you should even consider something as unpalatable as a pay off to the tenant, payable after he's left voluntarily. It will still be cheaper than losing all that rent until the court date. Wait until the PRTB adjudication and you'll have a good idea how he's going to play it, but I suspect he knows the system. In Germany such people are called Mietnomaden or "Rent Nomads", which sums them up quite well.

Big Davey

Ok guys thank you all for the advice. I have several cards to play with these tenants and one of them happens to be that they have a family member in the social welfare. This person was in their local office until a couple of months back and when they moved to another office the tenant immediately stopped paying rent altogether ! Also I have not received one of the letters regarding if the rent is up to date from social welfare for about 3 years the same time that the tenants started falling a bit behind on rent every few months. I made an appointment to meet a prominent TD for today to pass on some "other" information I have that I can not divulge here yet and after a 100 mile trek to Dublin City centre this person skipped off just before our meeting and left me waiting for ages before a security guard made some calls and informed me I had wasted my journey. What is going on in the country ?

runawaybishop

Big Davey wrote: »

Ok guys thank you all for the advice. I have several cards to play with these tenants and one of them happens to be that they have a family member in the social welfare. This person was in their local office until a couple of months back and when they moved to another office the tenant immediately stopped paying rent altogether ! Also I have not received one of the letters regarding if the rent is up to date from social welfare for about 3 years the same time that the tenants started falling a bit behind on rent every few months. I made an appointment to meet a prominent TD for today to pass on some "other" information I have that I can not divulge here yet and after a 100 mile trek to Dublin City centre this person skipped off just before our meeting and left me waiting for ages before a security guard made some calls and informed me I had wasted my journey. What is going on in the country ?

Why are you talking to a TD? Just go through the correct legal process.

beauf

runawaybishop wrote: »

Why are you talking to a TD? Just go through the correct legal process.

How long does that take?

(Multiple by rent to estimate loss to LL)

Mrs OBumble

runawaybishop wrote: »

Why are you talking to a TD? Just go through the correct legal process.

Because sometimes, as the OP clearly knows, local relationships can be leveraged to make the problem someone else's.

OP ... think very, very strategically here. Why would the TD not want your information? Who else might be able to use it?

Big Davey

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Because sometimes, as the OP clearly knows, local relationships can be leveraged to make the problem someone else's.

OP ... think very, very strategically here. Why would the TD not want your information? Who else might be able to use it?

I hear you !

runawaybishop

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Because sometimes, as the OP clearly knows, local relationships can be leveraged to make the problem someone else's.

Well, it seemed it worked out well didn't it? TDs are a great bunch of lads alright :pac:

If the OP has evidence of fraud and the sw office are not listening then the next port of call is a formal complaint or the ombudsman. Not a TD who doesn't want the hassle.

beauf

A TD sees a vote. They want that hassle. I've never found the SW the slightest bit interested in dealing with the LL on issues. I tried to find out how long there backlog was in paying RA. Wouldn't tell me. Reported a tenant, I assume it was stopped. Bit I got zero feedback. My attitude is, if they are not interested, there's no incentive for me to be interested in their schemes either.

runawaybishop

beauf wrote: »

A TD sees a vote. They want that hassle. I've never found the SW the slightest bit interested in dealing with the LL on issues. I tried to find out how long there backlog was in paying RA. Wouldn't tell me. Reported a tenant, I assume it was stopped. Bit I got zero feedback. My attitude is, if they are not interested, there's no incentive for me to be interested in their schemes either.

Big Davey wrote: »

I made an appointment to meet a prominent TD for today to pass on some "other" information I have that I can not divulge here yet and after a 100 mile trek to Dublin City centre this person skipped off just before our meeting?

Doesn't look that interested to me. You need something with a paper trail.

beauf

runawaybishop wrote: »

Doesn't look that interested to me. You need something with a paper trail.

Usually you go to your local TD. I'm not so well versed on secret missions to a TD 100 miles away.

runawaybishop

beauf wrote: »

Usually you go to your local TD. I'm not so well versed on secret missions to a TD 100 miles away.

Why would you go to your local td to report welfare fraud though?

beauf

runawaybishop wrote: »

Why would you go to your local td to report welfare fraud though?

It wouldn't be the only place I'd report it.

But the TD could raise a political question on such an issue for the minister, who would have to get it checked out. Which might prompt some action down the chain of apathy to the people who should be looking at it.

Triangla

Just report it yourself directly here:

https://www.welfare.ie/en/Pages/secure/ReportFraud.aspx

runawaybishop

beauf wrote: »

It wouldn't be the only place I'd report it.

But the TD could raise a political question on such an issue for the minister, who would have to get it checked out. Which might prompt some action down the chain of apathy to the people who should be looking at it.

You have more faith than I do I guess

beauf

runawaybishop wrote: »

You have more faith than I do I guess

Not faith. Theres always a paper chain of denaibilty.

Mrs OBumble

beauf wrote: »

Usually you go to your local TD. I'm not so well versed on secret missions to a TD 100 miles away.

Sometimes TD's from smaller parties can be more, umm, ... effective.

Pro Hoc Vice

Big Davey wrote: »

Ok guys thank you all for the advice. I have several cards to play with these tenants and one of them happens to be that they have a family member in the social welfare. This person was in their local office until a couple of months back and when they moved to another office the tenant immediately stopped paying rent altogether ! Also I have not received one of the letters regarding if the rent is up to date from social welfare for about 3 years the same time that the tenants started falling a bit behind on rent every few months. I made an appointment to meet a prominent TD for today to pass on some "other" information I have that I can not divulge here yet and after a 100 mile trek to Dublin City centre this person skipped off just before our meeting and left me waiting for ages before a security guard made some calls and informed me I had wasted my journey. What is going on in the country ?

You really thought a TD would seriously touch this issue. This is a bad news story no matter how it turns out. If you get what you want the story is poor Tenant evicted, if you don't get what you want the story is political creation PRTB is a failure.

The Dail created the PRTB and stopped you being able to go straight to the Circuit Court, the PRTB takes a year to register a tenancy seriously how long to get the order. If I was you I would be telling your TD that the PRTB is a disaster.

The only time a TD wants to get involved in housing is when he can write to a person saying my letters got a LA house for you.

Big Davey

I will have interesting news in the new year just can't share it right now but watch this space.

Big Davey

beauf wrote: »

Usually you go to your local TD. I'm not so well versed on secret missions to a TD 100 miles away.

What if the TD was also a MINISTER ?

Big Davey

infosys wrote: »

You really thought a TD would seriously touch this issue. This is a bad news story no matter how it turns out. If you get what you want the story is poor Tenant evicted, if you don't get what you want the story is political creation PRTB is a failure.

The Dail created the PRTB and stopped you being able to go straight to the Circuit Court, the PRTB takes a year to register a tenancy seriously how long to get the order. If I was you I would be telling your TD that the PRTB is a disaster.

The only time a TD wants to get involved in housing is when he can write to a person saying my letters got a LA house for you.

So far I have found the PRTB to be both helpful and efficient.

beauf

Big Davey wrote: »

What if the TD was also a MINISTER ?

I'd guess they are unlikely to rock their own boat.