The Time War; let's work it out! ***SPOILERS***

pixelburp

Considering the events of the special, I think this is worthy of its own thread, don't you think? We're finally reaching something resembling closure to the events of the Time War and for the sake of sanity it'd be worth trying to piece together the parts laid out by Moffat in the 50th Anniversary story and seeing how they fit into the RTD version...

So.

Uhm... where to start? If we're to believe The Curator, Gallifrey is still out there, trapped in a bubble universe that the 3 doctors created. So Gallifrey can come back after all.

However, during the events of the End of Time Gallifrey returns via a last-gasp plan by Rassilon, hatched (I think?) during the final days of the Time War. So where do these two stories sit, and do they contradict each other?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think around the time of the Rassilon gambit, the talk was how the war was 'Time Locked' so that species couldn't get in or out. This was part of the plan by Rassilon; to punch out of that lock and take over the universe (in an understated plot by RTD :rolleyes:). So I think the actions of the 13 Doctors occurs after this point in the war, chronologically speaking. Rassilon's plan still fails, Gallifrey goes back to fighting but eventually the Doctor(s) save the day. Or: is Moffat saying that the pocket universe Gallifrey winds up in is the same as this Time Lock?

I actually like what Moffat has done - RTD's plot essentially turned the Time Lords into a snarling villainous race, not worthy of saving, whereas Moffat puts forward the idea that this was still a world full of innocents - worth saving after all, even if the Doctor ended up believing he'd doomed them all.

Coldzone

pixelburp wrote: »

However, during the events of the End of Time Gallifrey returns via a last-gasp plan by Rassilon, hatched (I think?) during the final days of the Time War. So where do these two stories sit, and do they contradict each other?

I'm thinking Rassilon's plan was the Last Days of the time war and the 50th was The Last Day. So maybe was like 3 days before :P

Mr.Saturn

The War Room seems to be in conflict with the High Council, based on the General's quip in 'Day of the Doctor'.

'To Hell with the High Council, their plan has already failed'

There is lots to be made out of that.

Ron Burgundy !

correct me if i'm wrong but all 13 doctors came together to save gallifrey right? what i'm wondering is how did that work ? even if tennant and john hurt forgot saving gallifrey wouldn't the other doctors remember it therefore making tennant and hurt remember? other that that moffat did a good job tying loose ends up for once. I was grinning the whole way through the special

Das Kitty

Do we know who time-locked the war?

Was it the folks from the Shadow Proclamation? I'd always assumed it was a by-product of the Moment being used before last night.

jasonb

Ron Burgundy ! wrote: »

correct me if i'm wrong but all 13 doctors came together to save gallifrey right? what i'm wondering is how did that work ? even if tennant and john hurt forgot saving gallifrey wouldn't the other doctors remember it therefore making tennant and hurt remember? other that that moffat did a good job tying loose ends up for once. I was grinning the whole way through the special

Well, going by the logic used in other posts on here, Hurt & Tennant forget saving Gallifrey because they've crossed the time line with Smith. Smith remembers because it's his 'present'. Extending that logic, all the other Doctors would also forget, as they've crossed Smith's timeline. 13 (Calpaldi) should remember because Smith does...

Or something like that...

J.

paulbok

How did they contact the other doctors?
They had gone into the plan saying there was now 3 of them (doctors) and hadn't mentioned trying to contact the other incarnations.
There was only 3 tardis's (Tardi?) flying about as well.

Sleepy

Does it really need to be analysed to death? I'm happy to suspend the disbelief in that instance just for the sheer "woohoo!" moment of all 13 incarnations working together for the 50th anniversary special.

It was certainly my little fella's favourite bit and I'm sure the same is true of lots of other kids that were watching. While I agree a certain amount of internal consistency is required around major plot turns, sometimes for a moment like that you just have to let it go...

Penn

I just took it to be that for the plan to work, they needed the power of 13 Tardises, so they crossed their own timelines to get word to all incarnations of the Doctor (incl Capaldi) to do it. The former Doctors' memories (everyone except Smith and Capaldi) would be wiped of having done it once the timelines got sorted at the end of the episode, and even though the Doctor shouldn't have crossed his own timelines to do it, they had to try as the alternative was so much worse. However they did it (visiting their past selves, sending a message via the psychic paper etc),

In a similar way to how the Doctor managed to survive being killed by River by being in the Tessarect, the Daleks destroying each other and Gallifrey disappearing fulfils the requirements of the Time War ending, just without Gallifrey being destroyed. It was temporarily removed from time and the universe.

McLoughlin

paulbok wrote: »

How did they contact the other doctors?
They had gone into the plan saying there was now 3 of them (doctors) and hadn't mentioned trying to contact the other incarnations.
There was only 3 tardis's (Tardi?) flying about as well.

In The Two Doctors the 6th Doctor contacted The 2nd Doctor on Earth in the same time period by using the Time Lord ability Telepathic contact via the astral plane so The 3 Doctors contacted all the rest using the same method I guess.

The Master

Penn wrote: »

the Daleks destroying each other and Gallifrey disappearing fulfils the requirements of the Time War ending, just without Gallifrey being destroyed. It was temporarily removed from time and the universe.

Exactly, the time war has practically ended the same way again just the method of getting there has changed. Billions didn't have to die this time*
To any outsiders conscious of the time war they would believe The Daleks and Time Lords destroyed each other.
Only The Doctor is now aware that Gallifrey is still out there somewhere and can be saved


*Unless you count all The Daleks who died...