young bulls

Helpmefarm

Anybody finishing young bulls! Have a big slatted shed relative to my few acres so looking for a system to utilise it?

49801

Not a bad option.
But by the sounds of it the factories are coming in with weight and age limits now. Not a prob if you play by their rules but worth doing the figures in advance.

Concern would be broken legs on the slats though. Perhaps not as big of a concern with younger bulls, less than 16mths? Do you have access to cheap concentrates? Can tie up a lot of cash so does not suit everyone.

Winter B and B? Cut all acres for silage?
Hard to make it pay though.

freedominacup

We built a good bit of capital in a couple of years buying cheap HO bull calves and finishing them at under 20 months. You need to have them coming to market when there's not a lot of other young cattle coming out.

Corkfarmer

I'm trying the freesian bull beef route this year. Weighed them the other day and they average 280kg at the moment. I'm feeding 3kg 15% ration and good quality silage. Plan is to have them finished for next August September.

epfff

Corkfarmer wrote: »

I'm trying the freesian bull beef route this year. Weighed them the other day and they average 280kg at the moment. I'm feeding 3kg 15% ration and good quality silage. Plan is to have them finished for next August September.

Not a problem but costs must be watched
Also you are comming in with the grass feed cattle
If weather comes bad in Sept you could struggle to get killed as hobby farmers will be Off loading

john p mc g

Corkfarmer wrote: »

I'm trying the freesian bull beef route this year. Weighed them the other day and they average 280kg at the moment. I'm feeding 3kg 15% ration and good quality silage. Plan is to have them finished for next August September.

What age are they now hong long will you feed them intensively for will it be in shed or out. Ive four here will have to come up with a plan for them they were born late march
.

epfff

john p mc g wrote: »

What age are they now hong long will you feed them intensively for will it be in shed or out. Ive four here will have to come up with a plan for them they were born late march
.

Not worth going at it with four
It all about costs and hitting scarcity of cattle(I live near factory and can have them there with hours notice)
I never worry about weight too much this time if year they all go out to grass second summer
You want no kids around and electric everywhere and no heifers near
Once they become too hard handle in June maybe Jul. And this year with the heat I got till Aug into the shed On 10 plus kgs then killing from 90 to 160 days in shed
Last few that won't flesh cost money
Once they get into weight it gets too costly to feed them

john p mc g

epfff wrote: »

Not worth going at it with four
It all about costs and hitting scarcity of cattle(I live near factory and can have them there with hours notice)
I never worry about weight too much this time if year they all go out to grass second summer
You want no kids around and electric everywhere and no heifers near
Once they become too hard handle in June maybe Jul. And this year with the heat I got till Aug into the shed On 10 plus kgs then killing from 90 to 160 days in shed
Last few that won't flesh cost money
Once they get into weight it gets too costly to feed them

Squeez them so would it be da best thing what would they be worth as yearlings

Helpmefarm

Ok so say capital not a problem and I have shed, sillage and straw could some of ye wise men guide on the rest! Like what weight to buy what breed and diet to finish them, I.m from cavan so would buying bull finisher of Mill add up? Also is a diet feeder essential? Rather buy continental cattle too?

epfff

john p mc g wrote: »

Squeez them so would it be da best thing what would they be worth as yearlings

To me they are worth more as bulls at 12 month's old unless very light and they wont Be that hard handle till 15 months or so

Helpmefarm

Also would rather the 16 month finish before they get too boisterous!

epfff

Helpmefarm wrote: »

Ok so say capital not a problem and I have shed, sillage and straw could some of ye wise men guide on the rest! Like what weight to buy what breed and diet to finish them, I.m from cavan so would buying bull finisher of Mill add up? Also is a diet feeder essential? Rather buy continental cattle too?

At simular do both continentals and fr
Have diet feeder not using this yr as don't have ingredients for it at min
Last spring was tight on grass and Couldn't afford to plough I use it as part of my rereading plan so missed a year last hear
Just Straw and meal in adlib feeders( shed needs to be suitable for them)
Matching cattle together is biggest prob I find
You need a certain attitude
Don't panic too early with hurts
If one gets hurt its hard to reintroduce back to bunch
They get lame remove can't reintroduce
They need to be killed as they flesh after that they start costing and factory may leave you if they have inspec cattle
you need small frames as they don't want weight
I havnt mentioned pneumonia yet

Ps.vext here pulled one out with tractor this morning down in s+%t from one pin month from killing walked out another with bad hip that was in bunch 3 months snoths on noses in another shed that are in month plus
mother complaining of smell of pigs comming from shed wife complaining of smell Off myself
Love this craic

Helpmefarm

Small frames? So stocky but not tall? Sorry new farming so don't have a clue!

epfff

Helpmefarm wrote: »

Small frames? So stocky but not tall? Sorry new farming so don't have a clue!

If you new pneumonia is major problem with young soft calfs
Watching rugby here and still smell on hands from trying to get that lad out this morning
So be prepared for bad days
Also buying finding getting them at a price is a priblem
I'd say try it with a few but you must learn about diet introducing etc the hard way I found most of the real experts never feed a bull themselves and every sales rep will find you with a product that you can't feed without and every large finisher is buying off them

severeoversteer

took the plunge and bought some weanlings for bull beef there a month ago,

I bought a different type of animal though

8 month old charolais bull weanlings all knocking around 380-460 kg in weight,
serious quality they are, they cost a lot but have bought them from suckler farmer I know and last years calves were squeezed and are dead since October and killed out all over 400kg at 18 - 19 months, all u grades and high chance of e grades.

im planning to keep them till theyre 17 months, mixing my own ration.

trying to come up with a way of letting them have some room when in shed next summer. some kind of outdoor pad beside the shed, keep them clean aswell and thrive should be better.

Helpmefarm

Sorry epfff I was thinking more along lines of buying them like at 10 months old and finishing by 16! Is this a viable option? Only a part time farmer so could not look after calves

epfff

Helpmefarm wrote: »

Sorry epfff I was thinking more along lines of buying them like at 10 months old and finishing by 16! Is this a viable option? Only a part time farmer so could not look after calves

Sorry you misunderstood my lingo
We consider that age still calfs/weanlings
Cost when buying is key you can lose before you start
Wouldn't worry about grades more so price as a ratio to grade

Helpmefarm

Oh crap! So I go to mart and buy 5 for an experiment(don't mind losing on these)! What do I buy? I'm far from stupid but this farming complicated!

blue5000

Trying to do a few here too. Killed a couple off grass and 6kg meal in Oct, did ok both U2, one was 300kg(aubrac x angus) dw another 355kg(blonde x black baldie) dw. 14 on straw bedding and 12kg meal at present. Big problem with finishing them in Autumn is lots of cheap grass fed cattle around.

I am hearing the factories are going to push hard for 16 month bulls next year, but at the moment 22 months is OK (No 12c /kg bonus though). Roscrea only want them over 400kg this year. I think it is going to be hard to have them killed at 16 months and leave a decent margin and have a enough fat cover on them. Maybe some of the traditional breeds would finish easier, maybe high starch maize silage would help reduce costs.

Keep the group size small to reduce fighting, some people put electric fence over head, but I don't.

epfff

Helpmefarm wrote: »

Oh crap! So I go to mart and buy 5 for an experiment(don't mind losing on these)! What do I buy? I'm far from stupid but this farming complicated!

Yep
do what ever will fit nice in pen or two
I suggest buy a mix of stock both breeds and quality
possible feed pens different and make your own decisions from there
remember all the experts that share their opinion point out all you are doing wrong never done anything themselves
first advice for ya
Vaccinate ibr bovipast t10
Start Straw silage 4 it's hi maze
increase 1kg twice a week till 9 kgs then ad lib cut out silage
Its all a learning curve

bob charles

I would think you shed is leaving more money empty than finishing bulls. Why not just rent out the shed for B&B and collect your money with little or no risk outside of payment. No one wants bulls

onyerbikepat

bob charles wrote: »

... No one wants bulls

You mean no one want bulls this time of year, surely! Why don't they want them, is it low fat cover, toughness of meat, what is it ?

Corkfarmer

john p mc g wrote: »

What age are they now hong long will you feed them intensively for will it be in shed or out. Ive four here will have to come up with a plan for them they were born late march
.

They're about 9 months at the moment, not sure whether to keep feeding them at grass when I let them out in spring or not.

epfff

Corkfarmer wrote: »

They're about 9 months at the moment, not sure whether to keep feeding them at grass when I let them out in spring or not.

Depends on how much grass you have
If it's scarce keep feeding its money well spent
Kill earlier

bob charles

onyerbikepat wrote: »

You mean no one want bulls this time of year, surely! Why don't they want them, is it low fat cover, toughness of meat, what is it ?

customers (aldi, tesco et al) dont want bull meat, end off. under 16 month has some chance okay, is this economic to produce?

Helpmefarm

Economic? Is anything economic in farming I've no sfp so just trying to find a profitable system! But so many different opinions etc hard to know what to be at!

epfff

Helpmefarm wrote: »

Economic? Is anything economic in farming

Prob not
16 month is defo not with my calculator
If you keep weight down and fat cover up bulls will not be a prob
Just not as easy done as said that's why I not over fond of big contintals
Bulls Will not fat cover like heifers or stears
At times of glut Bulls will be second choice

49801

Helpmefarm wrote: »

Economic? Is anything economic in farming I've no sfp so just trying to find a profitable system! But so many different opinions etc hard to know what to be at!

Ok. Leave the financial side of things aside for moment.
you need to decide what your strengths/skills/goals are and what you are willing to put in.
When you know that it becomes easier to decide what system to pursue. Articulating these is not easy but once done will really help
A big shed is a great resource to have but may hamper your decision if your strengths are not in line with livestock.
Then evaluate the the economics of the few systems remaining to decide what will work best.
An evaluation tool like SWOT and effort/benefit graph can help evaluate options.


49801

Helpmefarm

So epfff I go to mart Tuesday what do I buy? Age weight breed and guide price?

Helpmefarm

Sorry 49801 only seen ur post now! Have you any suggestions? Have 4 bay double slatted shed on 28 acre at the moment and another 30 acres elsewhere if I want to take it off lease!

Damo810

Helpmefarm wrote: »

Sorry 49801 only seen ur post now! Have you any suggestions? Have 4 bay double slatted shed on 28 acre at the moment and another 30 acres elsewhere if I want to take it off lease!

If your that new to farming, is bull beef really the best option to start with? Temperamental animals at the best of times, high cost and volatile system, a lot of which will depend on meal prices and a lot of the times aren't a high priority for factories..

Would a more conventional steer/heifer beef system not give you an easier start with things? Or maybe take a look at the "weanling to store" topic.

49801

Helpmefarm wrote: »

Sorry 49801 only seen ur post now! Have you any suggestions? Have 4 bay double slatted shed on 28 acre at the moment and another 30 acres elsewhere if I want to take it off lease!

Nope
It needs to come from yourself I am afraid.
What equipment have you?

Helpmefarm

Currently trying weanling to store! Was in mart last week charolis heifer wealings I bid went near 900 at 300kg and yet next door 600kg heifers making not much with 1200 so that don't add up to me either?

onyerbikepat

Helpmefarm wrote: »

..so that don't add up to me either?

Welcome to farming.

TUBBY

Helpmefarm wrote: »

Currently trying weanling to store! Was in mart last week charolis heifer wealings I bid went near 900 at 300kg and yet next door 600kg heifers making not much with 1200 so that don't add up to me either?

well is that not your answer. Buy heavier stores where you think you see the value. Shed them for 90 days with meal and silage. Factory them and collect your qa bonus. Will make more or should I say lose less with this than at bulls. Bulls are a specialized game and it is easy fall in to thinking that just cause there is more potenttial for weight gain and they are better convertors that bulls are the business. However they need very good management and like others posters say have problems with fat scores and being in factory spec at under 16 months. Bullocks a lot more forgiving

freedominacup

bob charles wrote: »

customers (aldi, tesco et al) dont want bull meat, end off. under 16 month has some chance okay, is this economic to produce?

They don't want steer beef here either. AFAIK most of the beef sold fresh in Irish supermarkets is young heifer beef. If they don't get the steer beef here where are they going to go to get alternative supplies of non-hormone treated, traceable, quality assured steer beef?

Most male cattle killed on the continent are bulls or so I believe and up until recently we produced the E.U.'s surplus. That is not to say that every kg that left the E.U. came from here rather that the excess beef capacity that the E.U. had above it's own requirements came from here, without us the E.U. just about meets it's own demand. There aren't that many alternative supplies for Aldi, Tesco etc. TBH this line about customers not wanting buls doesn't have a lot underpining it. When HO & Fr bulls were flooding out of the country 18-24 months ago there was a massive push by the same factories to keep them here with a substantial campagin encouraging a bull beef system for these calves. The minute they hit the market all of a sudden no-one wants bull beef:rolleyes:.

Dont be daft

Damo810 wrote: »

If your that new to farming, is bull beef really the best option to start with? Temperamental animals at the best of times, high cost and volatile system, a lot of which will depend on meal prices and a lot of the times aren't a high priority for factories..

Would a more conventional steer/heifer beef system not give you an easier start with things? Or maybe take a look at the "weanling to store" topic.

+1 on all of this.

Add to that the fact that they'll probably make pure sh*te of any medium duty gates/waterbowls/fences, kick the crap out of each other periodically, some get lame at the sniff of a slat and bawl the house down everyday.

If you struggle to make money with steers you'll lose your shirt with bulls. Might sound harsh but the truth is their a dream when everything is going right and a nightmare when things go wrong.
For a part-timer new to farming the only way you could pick a tougher cattle system was if you tried to finish them off grass.

freedominacup wrote: »

TBH this line about customers not wanting buls doesn't have a lot underpining it. When HO & Fr bulls were flooding out of the country 18-24 months ago there was a massive push by the same factories to keep them here with a substantial campagin encouraging a bull beef system for these calves. The minute they hit the market all of a sudden no-one wants bull beef:rolleyes:.

True for ya. Never had any problems getting any of ours killed. Lots of pissing and moaning afterwards about grades and fat cover but still they're happy to continue taking them the next day.

severeoversteer

well to inform ye lads

kepak had an advert in last Thursdays farmers journal looking for feeder bulls for their farm
it said feeder bulls wanted, continental animals upto 17 months

so don't say that factories don't want bulls !they'll take them most times

bob charles

severeoversteer wrote: »

well to inform ye lads

kepak had an advert in last Thursdays farmers journal looking for feeder bulls for their farm
it said feeder bulls wanted, continental animals upto 17 months

so don't say that factories don't want bulls !they'll take them most times

Killed bullocks and a few bulls today. A couple of them nearly identical weight and grades. bullocks were 23cent a kilo over the bulls or €70 on 300kg carcass:rolleyes:.

893bet

bob charles wrote: »

Killed bullocks and a few bulls today. A couple of them nearly identical weight and grades. bullocks were 23cent a kilo over the bulls or €70 on 300kg carcass:rolleyes:.

lol. Makes sense that the factories want them if they are going to cut you on them then.

Factory reminds me of that no nonsense insurance advert where they put up the price of the insurance no matter what you say.

Oh its a bull? sorry that will be a cut in price
Oh he is 21 month old, too old that will be a cut in price
He killed out at over 500 kg, sorry too heavy that will be a cut in price
He was at the lower level of U grade so that will be a cut in price.
He has only 4 legs so that will be a cut in price.
He also is the wrong colour Limousin so that will be a cut.
Elbows too pointy.

epfff

893bet wrote: »

lol. Makes sense that the factories want them if they are going to cut you on them then.

Factory reminds me of that no nonsense insurance advert where they put up the price of the insurance no matter what you say.

Oh its a bull? sorry that will be a cut in price
Oh he is 21 month old, too old that will be a cut in price
He killed out at over 500 kg, sorry too heavy that will be a cut in price
He was at the lower level of U grade so that will be a cut in price.
He has only 4 legs so that will be a cut in price.
He also is the wrong colour Limousin so that will be a cut.
Elbows too pointy.

Nail on head
Except its even simpler
Factory wants cheep beef

epfff

bob charles wrote: »

Killed bullocks and a few bulls today. A couple of them nearly identical weight and grades. bullocks were 23cent a kilo over the bulls or €70 on 300kg carcass:rolleyes:.

Did it cost same thing to feed bulls?
I always find they get going quicker

severeoversteer

bob charles wrote: »

Killed bullocks and a few bulls today. A couple of them nearly identical weight and grades. bullocks were 23cent a kilo over the bulls or €70 on 300kg carcass:rolleyes:.

bet you the bullocks had been alive longer than the bulls,

my factory rep told me don't even think about sending plain bulls to the factory, and to do that you cannot buy plain weanlings in the first place.

Farmer Pudsey

Helpmefarm wrote: »

Sorry 49801 only seen ur post now! Have you any suggestions? Have 4 bay double slatted shed on 28 acre at the moment and another 30 acres elsewhere if I want to take it off lease!

With it seems little experience of farming the last game I would advise you to go at is young bulls. It is cost all the way and at the end you may have 1500 euro tied you to try to make a 150 profit. Buy the wrong animal and he will lose you a lot of money.

Consider buying bucket fed weanlings or light weight year and a halfs. These seem to be value at present. Are you in an area where there is a lot of farmers summer grazing heavy cattle. If so consider buying 350-400kgs Friesian bullocks or 300-350kg Friesian bulls squeeze the bulls and graze next year and overwinter and sell the following spring.

However everything is about performance. You will find it hard to break a lease and I would not advise you to try. Bucket fed heifers are another option however it seems to me you have little or no experience and you were lucky the 300kg heifer fell to someone else.

freedominacup wrote: »

They don't want steer beef here either. AFAIK most of the beef sold fresh in Irish supermarkets is young heifer beef. If they don't get the steer beef here where are they going to go to get alternative supplies of non-hormone treated, traceable, quality assured steer beef?

Most male cattle killed on the continent are bulls or so I believe and up until recently we produced the E.U.'s surplus. That is not to say that every kg that left the E.U. came from here rather that the excess beef capacity that the E.U. had above it's own requirements came from here, without us the E.U. just about meets it's own demand. There aren't that many alternative supplies for Aldi, Tesco etc. TBH this line about customers not wanting buls doesn't have a lot underpining it. When HO & Fr bulls were flooding out of the country 18-24 months ago there was a massive push by the same factories to keep them here with a substantial campagin encouraging a bull beef system for these calves. The minute they hit the market all of a sudden no-one wants bull beef:rolleyes:.

Before horse meat scandal a lot of meat was rebranded for the want of a better word. Supermarkets took a lot of cattle that were not to there spec for [EMAIL="f@@k"]f@@k[/EMAIL] sake they put horse meat in burgers.

bob charles wrote: »

Killed bullocks and a few bulls today. A couple of them nearly identical weight and grades. bullocks were 23cent a kilo over the bulls or €70 on 300kg carcass:rolleyes:.

I got 3 yearlings one spring one was squeezed came from same farm. It was the oldest that was squeezed reckon farmer was afraid of him. All three were treated the same as I did not know for 6-8 weeks that he was squeezed. As he was not being bullied I left him with the bulls.

Now the bulls killed 6 weeks earlier at R+ and at 420kgs the bullock was an R- and killed 360kgs. I always consider that bulls kill nearly a full grade ahead of bullocks and about 15-20% heavier.

bob charles

severeoversteer wrote: »

bet you the bullocks had been alive longer than the bulls,

my factory rep told me don't even think about sending plain bulls to the factory, and to do that you cannot buy plain weanlings in the first place.

they came in at the same time and at the same money, bullocks were probably heavier on entry. but makes no odds to me as bullocks left 70 more than bulls from buying. I have finally made the decision that no more bulls are to be bought in. At the moment I have 3 in the hospital field and one gone on the hoof due to all sorts of issues that were bought in the last few weeks. I wouldnt take them for love nor money anymore

nashmach

severeoversteer wrote: »

bet you the bullocks had been alive longer than the bulls,

my factory rep told me don't even think about sending plain bulls to the factory, and to do that you cannot buy plain weanlings in the first place.

Where will that leave all these fancy FR bulls that are in the country then?

Farmer Pudsey

nashmach wrote: »

Where will that leave all these fancy FR bulls that are in the country then?

With all cattle it is timing. The factory's will take goats and pay well for them when cattle are scares. Just do not have plain bulls from February-April and from mid August until Mid December. Plain bulls usually equal under finished bulls. TBH if anything is coming through over the last 3-4 months it is he factory's do not want too many cattle over 400kgs and they want cattle running into fat score 3 and preferable carcasses below 360 and well into fat score 3.

I have seen under finished bullocks get punished as well. Getting harder and harder to get flat pricing. It is all about cattle within in spec. If you but cattle that will be outside spec it is still possible to make a profit out of them,......You just have to pay less for them.

In reality most of us are only traders we buy a product try to add value to it and sell it at a profit.

freedominacup

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

With all cattle it is timing. The factory's will take goats and pay well for them when cattle are scares. Just do not have plain bulls from February-April and from mid August until Mid December. Plain bulls usually equal under finished bulls. TBH if anything is coming through over the last 3-4 months it is he factory's do not want too many cattle over 400kgs and they want cattle running into fat score 3 and preferable carcasses below 360 and well into fat score 3.

I have seen under finished bullocks get punished as well. Getting harder and harder to get flat pricing. It is all about cattle within in spec. If you but cattle that will be outside spec it is still possible to make a profit out of them,......You just have to pay less for them.

In reality most of us are only traders we buy a product try to add value to it and sell it at a profit.

In my naivety I thought there'd be a pick-up in demand around now and had been aiming a group of bulls at this time, I gonna get hosed on Fri but there's f'all I can do about it now. Should I push next years sooner or hold off on putting them onto a finishing ration for six weeks and aim for early-mid Janurary?

Brown Podzol

bob charles wrote: »

they came in at the same time and at the same money, bullocks were probably heavier on entry. but makes no odds to me as bullocks left 70 more than bulls from buying. I have finally made the decision that no more bulls are to be bought in. At the moment I have 3 in the hospital field and one gone on the hoof due to all sorts of issues that were bought in the last few weeks. I wouldnt take them for love nor money anymore

Have six left from a batch of fifty fr/Ho bulls on ad lib from July. If all went ok then there maybe a margin in them but it's the waste that that ruins them. The lame, sick and the disabled. I'm afraid to make up the figures. I'll be lucky if all they leave is a heap if dung after them.:(

bob charles

Brown Podzol wrote: »

Have six left from a batch of fifty fr/Ho bulls on ad lib from July. If all went ok then there maybe a margin in them but it's the waste that that ruins them. The lame, sick and the disabled. I'm afraid to make up the figures. I'll be lucky if all they leave is a heap if dung after them.:(

and thats where Teagasc figures etc, fail to take into account. When things are going well, they are great, when things are going bad the knacker man is flying

Farmer Pudsey

Brown Podzol wrote: »

Have six left from a batch of fifty fr/Ho bulls on ad lib from July. If all went ok then there maybe a margin in them but it's the waste that that ruins them. The lame, sick and the disabled. I'm afraid to make up the figures. I'll be lucky if all they leave is a heap if dung after them.:(

Feeding FR/HO bulls ad lib from july is a lossmake anyway. You are feeding cattle to compete against the end of year glut at a best case senario you win one in three.

All you can do is make up the figures and learn from it.