Ireland World Class Players

Kayless

Been reading a lot of stuff about Ireland's golden generation and how we have come to the end of a cycle, I think this line sums it up well "The problem for Schmidt, this Irish team and for people who love the game is a simple one – this is the right coach in the right place at the wrong time."

So that's got me thinking of the young players we have coming through who do you think will be world class?

Tox56

Olding and Henderson are the two coming through that I think will become world class. Luke McGrath has that sort of potential but he has such a long way to go I wouldn't want to call that for a few years.

oneshot0kill

I reckon he has come at the right time. He may not get to build a team around Ireland's golden generation at their peak but he is the right guy to lead Ireland through a transition period. We know how well he brought through the youth at Leinster. I'm sure he's the right man to bring through the youth for Ireland.

Definitely food for thought though as to what Ireland could have achieved with Schmidt had it been back in 2006ish.

bilston

I think we currently have three world class players, Healy, O'Brien and Sexton. As for the up and comers who knows, anything can happen.

In two years time when the likes of Henderson and Olding are more established we might have more.

We arent as bad as the 90s but not as good as the 00s. Somewhere in between.

molloyjh

Healy and McGrath at LH are both there or thereabouts and have time on their side.

Henderson should be well able to make that step up. POC will be around for another couple of years and we all know hat he can do.

SOB is world class and Heaslip, if he can regain his best form, is too. I'd consider Ferris only if/when he returns to international rugby.

Murray is a fine scrum half. Luke McGrath has the potential.

Sexton is world class.

Olding and Payne should both come into the frame and be up there.

Bowe on form is excellent, and Zebo can be magic as well. We just need to get them on form consistently.

Kearney is another one who has issues with consistency, but can be world class.

Martin Moore, Gilsenan, Marmion, Hanrahan, Henshaw, Marshall, Jackson and players like them have the ability and if in the right set-up could be too notch.


We have far more depth now than ever before. I really don't think things are as bad as some make out. We are in a transitional period, but once the likes of Payne becomes IQ and some of those younger lads start stepping up we should be fine.

bmwguy

Before I contribute what do we mean by world class? I would say it means there is a strong argument for them being picked by any team in the world. If this is the case, I think we have very few at the moment

Quint2010

The one player coming through who has it all is Dan Leavy.

Kayless

bmwguy wrote: »

Before I contribute what do we mean by world class? I would say it means there is a strong argument for them being picked by any team in the world. If this is the case, I think we have very few at the moment

Within the top 3 in their position, for example many people would regard Carter as number 1 fly-half and Sexton as number 2 in the world.

its_phil

Sexton, SOB, POC and Healy.

Western Pomise

Don't think PO'C is still in world class bracket,neither is Rob Kearney.The only Irish players that would be close to a spot on best 15 in world are Sexton and O' Brien.

Buer

Kayless wrote: »

Within the top 3 in their position, for example many people would regard Carter as number 1 fly-half and Sexton as number 2 in the world.

It really still is open to debate whether our guys are world class under that criteria then. SOB is our best player but you'll find plenty of people rating McCaw, Pocock, Hooper, Warburton and even Louw in the top three also.

For me, SOB and Sexton are currently there. Healy is there due to a lack of alternatives but has gone off the boil a little and hasn't been consistently where he was in 2011 when he was probably the best in the world. I think McGrath is going to put him under serious pressure and could get the nod for a couple of 6N games.

POM is going to be world class I think. Murray possibly but scrum half is such a subjective position in terms of game plan and the pack in front of him. I don't think I would consider any other player in the Irish 23 to be in the shake up at the moment.

Artful_Badger

I've heard this golden generation has come to an end before. Every generation is seen to be a golden one when people think they have potential. Eddie O'Sullivan went to the world cup with such a team as did Kidney and I've no doubt Joe will too. We still have a lot of players capable of beating every other team in the world if they are fit, on form and set up correctly by the right coach.

Players like SOB, Healy, Heaslip, Ferris, Kearney, Bowe, Earls, Sexton etc. Then each new era brings with it a new SOB, Healy, Sexton maybe we'll unearth a new BOD at some stage too. I think Marshall, Gilroy, Zebo, Henderson, Madigan could very well end up making up the difference in this next era and making it yet another golden generation.

If this is the end of an era I wouldnt be overly worried about the next one given some the the names that spring to mind when I think of the teams we will be fielding in the coming years even without the greatest man that has ever lived.

bmwguy

Kayless wrote: »

Within the top 3 in their position, for example many people would regard Carter as number 1 fly-half and Sexton as number 2 in the world.

That would be my take on it too, which is why seeing players not even first choice in their clubs or early in their careers (uncapped even) is very premature. At the moment we have Healy, Best and Ross, none of whom are or ever have been. Healy the closest but has been beaten too many times. 2nd row o Connell would, in my opinion be in the match day squad for any team when fully fit. None of the other 2nd row would be. Back row only O Brien would be in the running and there is a definite argument for him, lots of opposition though, as has O Connell. As a 6 for him though, with a world class 7 and 8 alongside we would see the best of him. Heaslip will have a lot of fans for the tag, but if we are sticking to top 3 he is easily bettered by Read, Parisse and probably Picamoles. He is close but in a team being beaten he goes missing a lot, something you could never say about the Italian. Read is just always in good teams so not sure there. Ferris at his best was in top 3 blindside but don't think his injuries will allow that to happen again. No other forwards even close at the moment in Irish setup. Murray is not in top 3 by a long way, Sefton is (himself Carter and Cooper top 3 but all very different). O Driscoll not anymore, certainly was at 1 stage but won't hit them heights again. Other centres, miles off at the moment. Wings only Bowe has a real right to be mentioned in this company and Kearney not anymore at fb, was pushing at 1 stage. Lets be honest, you would want to be a nailed on lions starter to be even mentioned as world class before you start fending off the challenges of the big 3 traditional southern hemisphere teams, France and to a lesser extent Argentina and Italy chip in with the odd top notch player (Lobbe, Parisse, Castro, Figallo...all forwards funny enough but are, or were recently, in the top 3 in their position worldwide). At the moment Ireland have Healy pushing, O Connell O Brien and Sexton in and Bowe close just needs form back. To argue we have more than 4 would make our results in the last few years seem a little unusual imo. Not being over critical of Ireland here, to have 4 players at that level is about average for a top 10 nation and nothing to be ashamed of (assuming we pick 3 teams of 15). Not many teams would have more than 7/8

Swiwi.

Buer wrote: »

It really still is open to debate whether our guys are world class under that criteria then. SOB is our best player but you'll find plenty of people rating McCaw, Pocock, Hooper, Warburton and even Louw in the top three also.

For me, SOB and Sexton are currently there. Healy is there due to a lack of alternatives but has gone off the boil a little and hasn't been consistently where he was in 2011 when he was probably the best in the world. I think McGrath is going to put him under serious pressure and could get the nod for a couple of 6N games.

POM is going to be world class I think. Murray possibly but scrum half is such a subjective position in terms of game plan and the pack in front of him. I don't think I would consider any other player in the Irish 23 to be in the shake up at the moment.

SOB is close, but not the world's best 7. I prefer him at 6, but then he's probably not enough of a lineout option to be in a world XV. Sexton is certainly up there too. That's it for at the moment - Healy could be, but he hasn't reached the heights so far this season at the various levels of the game; POM needs to develop his vision of the game - has the raw goods, but not enough game awareness for me at present. POC & BOD are past it in terms of World XV status.

Tox56

Yes Healy, Heaslip, Bowe and Kearney are the players who need to turn their form around, they've been there or thereabouts in terms of best in the world but are definitely not there now. They, along with Sexton and SOB, will be the spine of this team for the next 5-6 years, if we're going to be a competitive force they need to get back to their best. They have the ability but they haven't been showing it recently

Kayless

Artful_Badger wrote: »

I've heard this golden generation has come to an end before. Every generation is seen to be a golden one when people think they have potential. Eddie O'Sullivan went to the world cup with such a team as did Kidney and I've no doubt Joe will too. We still have a lot of players capable of beating every other team in the world if they are fit, on form and set up correctly by the right coach.

Players like SOB, Healy, Heaslip, Ferris, Kearney, Bowe, Earls, Sexton etc. Then each new era brings with it a new SOB, Healy, Sexton maybe we'll unearth a new BOD at some stage too. I think Marshall, Gilroy, Zebo, Henderson, Madigan could very well end up making up the difference in this next era and making it yet another golden generation.

If this is the end of an era I wouldnt be overly worried about the next one given some the the names that spring to mind when I think of the teams we will be fielding in the coming years even without the greatest man that has ever lived.

McGrath/Healy
Best/ Strauss
Moore
Henderson
?
SOB/POM
TOD/Henry
Heaslip
Murray/Marmion/L McGrath
Sexton/ Jackson/ Madigan/ JJ
Gilroy/ Zebo
Marshall/ Farrell
Payne/ Olding
Bowe/ Fitzgerald
Kearney ~ Zebo/Olding/

The future is bright

d-gal

Heaslip and kearney are no way near world class. Both could be dropped by the 6 nations.
Kearney has been well below average and the likes of Halfpenny, Folau and Dagg are miles ahead of him.
Read is a world class 8, Heaslip shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as him.

POC a couple of years ago was the best lock in the world and BOD was the best 13. We have no one near that now. SOB is brilliant but not a world class 7. Both Cane and McCaw are better 7s than him and that's only NZ. He'd make 6 for them but not at 7 and that'd apply for Austrailia and SA as well.
I reckon Henderson is the next big thing for us. Outside that I reckon McGrath and Moore could be but I'd expect the Georgians will be taking over the prop scene in a few years. The young props they're producing at the moment are scarily good.

Liveforrugby

Cian Healy is currently the best loose head in the world.

Nobody else has the scrummaging and workrate/ carrying combo ability

Artful_Badger

Kayless wrote: »

McGrath/Healy
Best/ Strauss/Cronin
Moore
Henderson
?/Toner/Ryan
SOB/POM
TOD/Henry
Heaslip
Murray/Marmion/L McGrath
Sexton/ Jackson/ Madigan
Gilroy/ Zebo/Earls
Marshall/ Farrell/Hanrahan
Payne/ Olding/Cave
Bowe/ Fitzgerald /McFadden
Kearney/Olding/Kearney

There's a lot of depth there (in the backs anyway, I'm sure the more clued in posters can fill in the forwards) with a lot of good players some of which have the ability to turn into really outstanding players.

jamiedav2011

I'm absolutely disgusted that Henderson and Olding have been unlucky with injuries this year. Both of these guys I rate very very highly.

Henderson would surely be starting today were it not for injury.

molloyjh

This World XV or top 3 in their position thing isn't really what we should be looking at. Few English players would fit that bill but Lancaster has them playing together well and doing their jobs enough to challenge the biggest sides out there.

A team doesn't have to be made up of loads of the best players in the word to be an effective and successful side. It would obviously help if you had them, but a side with talent and a clear gameplan that they can execute well is enough. And we do and will have the talent to be successful.

CatFromHue

For full back you could say that, in no particular order, Dagg, Brown, Folau, and Halfpenny are ahead of Kearney.

Tox56

molloyjh wrote: »

This World XV or top 3 in their position thing isn't really what we should be looking at. Few English players would fit that bill but Lancaster has them playing together well and doing their jobs enough to challenge the biggest sides out there.

This is the big thing for me. This team got within 8 points of NZ and could easily have won:

Mike Brown, Chris Ashton, Joel Tomkins, Billy Twelvetrees, Ben Foden, Owen Farrell, Lee Dickson; Joe Marler, Dylan Hartley, Dan Cole, Joe Launchbury, Courtney Lawes, Tom Wood, Chris Robshaw (capt), Billy Vunipola.

That team of course has some excellent players, and a few important injuries (but that isn't relevant to my point), but standouts? Brown maybe? Launchbury? Robshaw? It only has 3 players selected for the original Lions squad. There's a lot of merely 'solid' international players in there and some very raw young players.

Compare it to what we can/will put out over the next few months:

R Kearney, T Bowe, BOD, Marshall, Earls/Zebo/Gilroy/Fitzgerald, Sexton, Murray, Healy, Best, Ross, POC, Henderson, POM/Ferris, SOB, Heaslip

Now I'm not getting into a England/Ireland debate, because I'm cherry picking some injured players, but I think that team is every bit as good as the named England team. I would say better but that's too subjective, I don't think many would disagree if I said that is at least as good as that England 15. 9 selected in the original Lions squad and a few stragglers (on previous tours, called up late etc.)

England pushed the AB's all the way, and that's the gold standard, the best team in the world. Playing as good or better than the sum of our parts has to be the simple goal of Schmidt, I think he's capable of it, if we can get there we will be competitive with anyone

Kayless

Artful_Badger wrote: »

There's a lot of depth there (in the backs anyway, I'm sure the more clued in posters can fill in the forwards) with a lot of good players some of which have the ability to turn into really outstanding players.

Tox56 wrote: »

This is the big thing for me. This team got within 8 points of NZ and could easily have won:



That team of course has some excellent players, and a few important injuries (but that isn't relevant to my point), but standouts? Brown maybe? Launchbury? Robshaw? It only has 3 players selected for the original Lions squad. There's a lot of merely 'solid' international players in there and some very raw young players.

Compare it to what we can/will put out over the next few months:



Now I'm not getting into a England/Ireland debate, because I'm cherry picking some injured players, but I think that team is every bit as good as the named England team. I would say better but that's too subjective, I don't think many would disagree if I said that is at least as good as that England 15. 9 selected in the original Lions squad and a few stragglers (on previous tours, called up late etc.)

England pushed the AB's all the way, and that's the gold standard, the best team in the world. Playing as good or better than the sum of our parts has to be the simple goal of Schmidt, I think he's capable of it, if we can get there we will be competitive with anyone

100% agree with this. Like I said in another post I think that is why Schmidt is the man to lead Ireland and it's not like we don't have some very good players. I think like most Ireland fans I want to see us become the sum of all our parts and get a clean run (limited injury's) for a season under Schmidt. Ireland as a team could be a whole lot better than people know it's just about getting a game plan sorted that allows the lads to play to their strengths.

shuffol

England have a fairly simple style of play that suits the players they have available to them, massive pack with a very good goal/tactical kicker. Their second row also gets through a huge amount of work. I dont think it'll be that easy for us to come up with a style of play that'll be as effective against SH opposition. I havent a clue what style of play would even suit the personnel we have, the big performances we've produced in recent years have been due to playing with a manic intensity but I dont think we can deliver those performances week in week out.

As for world class players, I'd define that as somebody worthy of a mention when compiling a World XV. In that regard I'd have SOB, Healy and Sexton there. A left field suggestion I'd put forward for the future is Rhys Ruddock, has the ideal skillset and physique for a 6 and looks ready to step up a level this season.