Audit of Speed Limits roads due today

_Kaiser_

Surprised there's not a thread on this already. From here:

The Minister for Transport is to unveil details of an audit of the speed limits on the country's roads today.
The plan comes a year after Leo Varadkar appointed a working group to assess areas where the limit may be too high or too low.

So what do we reckon then? Will common sense break out and country laneways with grass in the middle lose their 80 km/h limits, wide multi-lane carrigeways like the N11 or N4 increased, and former N-roads downgraded for no other reason that to "encourage" people to tolled motorways (N3 I'm looking at you) reinstated to their former limits?

Or will it be an excuse for more nonsense like 30 km/h limits everywhere etc

AugustusMinimus

1. 30kph to be applied everywhere
2. All previous Regional roads upgraded to 100kph, downgraded back to 80kph
3. A few token bits of DC with a 60kph limit put up to 80kph.

djimi

By 5oc this evening there wont be a 120km/h road left in the country...

AugustusMinimus

News already. All 80kph signs on both Rural and Local roads to be replaced with the old black circle and line through it to indicate the rural speed limit of 80kph will apply.

Another monstrous waste of money.

AugustusMinimus

djimi wrote: »

By 5oc this evening there wont be a 120km/h road left in the country...

This fear really isn't unwarranted.

If sense would prevail, the N25 Waterford bypass should be 120kph. Not a hope of this happening though as this would make much too much sense.

I also don't understand why the R639 between Glanmire and Watergrasshill is only 80kph and yet the R639 between Watergrasshill and Fermoy is 100kph.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

I wanna do 120kph on the side of a cliff

Anan1

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

So what do we reckon then? Will common sense break out and country laneways with grass in the middle lose their 80 km/h limits, wide multi-lane carrigeways like the N11 or N4 increased, and former N-roads downgraded for no other reason that to "encourage" people to tolled motorways (N3 I'm looking at you) reinstated to their former limits?

Or will it be an excuse for more nonsense like 30 km/h limits everywhere etc

What do we know about the people conducting the audit?

_Kaiser_

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

News already. All 80kph signs on both Rural and Local roads to be replaced with the old black circle and line through it to indicate the rural speed limit of 80kph will apply.

Another monstrous waste of money.

Really? That's nonsense. What on earth is the justification for going from a very clear system to one that makes less sense and makes it harder for someone unfamiliar to the area to determine what the limit is

Oh wait... uncertainty + more speed traps = PROFIT!! :rolleyes:

Brought to you by the same geniuses that gave you the 1x1/1x2 Reg system and the new unnecessary motorway sign proposals that will make them a shambles too.

munchkin_utd

the recommendations are out in full:
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/recommendations-on-speed-limits-29773501.html

1. A new Appeals System will be put in place to address inconsistent speed limits. This will allow interested parties or members of the public to appeal a given speed limit to the local authority. The authority must consider the issue within a given timeframe. If dissatisfied with the local authority response, the appeal can be escalated to a review body.

2. 80 kmh signs on narrow rural roads will be replaced with a generic sign that does not display a numeral. The limit will remain at 80kmh but the new sign will be the ‘black circle with diagonal’ which is in use internationally under the Vienna signage convention and which was used in Ireland prior to 2004. That sign means that the driver must use their own judgement but must never exceed 80kmh in any event.

3. The Road Safety Authority will run an awareness campaign on the new rural speed limit signs, and other measures, and will update the Rules of the Road.

4. The National Roads Authority and local authorities will review and update speed limits on a five year cycle to ensure appropriate fit and compliance with the Guidelines. The Department of Transport is currently mapping every speed limit in the country on to a computer database.

5. So-called ‘silly signs’ - such as a 100kmh speed limit on a dangerous corner where a lower speed would be more appropriate – will be removed. Inappropriate ‘repeater’ signs are already being removed.

6. The Guidelines for the Application of Speed Limits will be improved and made binding.

7. A voluntary pilot of in-car speed warnings, where drivers can choose to be warned by their satnav system if they exceed the speed limit, will be offered to motorists.

8. Trials will be run of variable speed limits which can be adjusted according to weather conditions, the volume of traffic, the time of day, or the day of the week.

9. Average speed limits will be introduced on motorways or other long-distance fixed roads to determine whether a vehicle has driven faster than the maximum speed limit over a given length of road.

10. The rules for the setting of temporary speed limits to allow for road works will be updated. This will allow City and County Managers to apply speed limits at road works more responsively, and flexibly - for example to apply lower limits only while works are underway.

11. The Department of Transport will appoint an existing official to oversee the implementation of the report’s recommendations.

AugustusMinimus

9. Average speed limits will be introduced on motorways or other long-distance fixed roads to determine whether a vehicle has driven faster than the maximum speed limit over a given length of road. :eek:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/recommendations-on-speed-limits-29773501.html

Of course, do speed checks on motorways where all the crashes happen :rolleyes:

_Kaiser_

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

9. Average speed limits will be introduced on motorways or other long-distance fixed roads to determine whether a vehicle has driven faster than the maximum speed limit over a given length of road. :eek:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/recommendations-on-speed-limits-29773501.html

Of course, do speed checks on motorways where all the crashes happen :rolleyes:

That's the one that jumped out at me too. So practically deserted motorways like the M8, M9, M3 after Navan etc will now be tagged with average speed cameras to screw you for doing 5/10 km/h over.

I hate this country. Everything that's brought in is a shambles

msg11

The old saying , 'Don't fix what is not broken' or something like that. Why are they targeting speed limits, there should be a few adjustments here and there but nothing mental or over the top.

AugustusMinimus

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

That's the one that jumped out at me too. So practically deserted motorways like the M8, M9, M3 after Navan etc will now be tagged with average speed cameras to screw you for doing 5/10 km/h over.

I hate this country. Everything that's brought in is a shambles

The amount of money being wasted in this country is beyond belief. Average speed cameras on motorways will do nothing for road safety.

The cost of those and replacing just about every 80kph sign in the country would be better spent resurfacing bad roads and improving bad sections of regional roads up and down the country.

munchkin_utd

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

That's the one that jumped out at me too. So practically deserted motorways like the M8, M9, M3 after Navan etc will now be tagged with average speed cameras to screw you for doing 5/10 km/h over.

I hate this country. Everything that's brought in is a shambles

thats one interpretation, but it could be more to do with the plans already in place to have this on the M50, same you you have on busy stretches in the UK of the M1/M6/M25/M20 and ties into the point before about variable speed limits which need policing.

Theres already average speed cameras on the island, one place being just across the road in Newry targeting a dangerous single carraigeway.

You'd have to hope that its a measure just for the busier parts of the network, like say the M50 which was brought to a standstill yesterday due to a number of accidents I hear.

_Kaiser_

munchkin_utd wrote: »

thats one interpretation, but it could be more to do with the plans already in place to have this on the M50, same you you have on busy stretches in the UK of the M1/M6/M25/M20 and ties into the point before about variable speed limits which need policing.

Theres already average speed cameras on the island, one place being just across the road in Newry.

You'd have to hope that its a measure just for the busier parts of the network, like say the M50 which was brought to a standstill yesterday due to a number of accidents I hear.

Yea but come on.. read the rest of their proposals above and remember what country we're in. Do you really think this won't be used to raise more revenue on quiet motorways?

Anan1

I really don't see much here to whinge about at all.

AugustusMinimus

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Yea but come on.. read the rest of their proposals above and remember what country we're in. Do you really think this won't be used to raise more revenue on quiet motorways?

Originally those mobile speed vans were to be put only on sections of road where deaths had happened. This was thrown out the window when they expanded the sections of roads to be covered about 6 months ago.

I wouldn't trust a thing the government or the RSA say. Not a thing.

AugustusMinimus

Anan1 wrote: »

I really don't see much here to whinge about at all.

I was expecting a huge list of roads where the limits were to be changed. Instead we got a load of waffle. I'd be interested to know how much this "Audit" cost to compile.

It reads like something a boardsie could compile in 10 minutes.

Chimaera

I wonder if The Guidelines for the Application of Speed Limits will be published and explanatory leaflets made available so people can clearly assess their application to a give road? I actually think publishing the guidelines in a format understandable by Joe Average would do far more for compliance and reducing collisions than any enforcement ever will.

Many people are ignorant of why limits are imposed at all. This is exacerbated by the many examples of limits that make little sense, even after careful consideration. So the ones that are actually considered and implemented in line with the guidelines are treated with no more respect than the totally idiotic ones.

If the NRA actually compile that database of speed limit zones, it'd be nice to eventually see a document associated with each detailing why the limit is set for that area, and when it was last reviewed.

My cynical view is that as usual, education is the enemy of the enforcer and this won't happen.

The cynic in me is also not surprised by the plan for average speed monitoring on motorways. Aside from the fact that it's common across Europe, the revenue stream from speeding fines is dropping as people become more aware of the enforcement by Go-Safe. When road death rates are not dropping, they have to do something else to reinforce their 'Speed Kills' narrative, so they bring in ever more draconian enforcement, despite the evidence from other countries that increased speed limit enforcement/compliance does not bring down road death rates.

As a side note, if the government wanted to really make people bring down their speed, they should show people how much fuel consumption increases for every 10 km/h faster you go. In these economically straitened times, people would probably slow down more if they realised how much it'd save them. For a lot of us, the difference between 120 km/h and 140 km/h on a trip to from Limerick to Dublin is going to be 4-6 litres which is nearly a tenner for a saving of 15 mins on the journey time.

Mycroft H

I'm not too bothered actually.


Happy that the old signs are back, they always made more sense and this coupled with the removal of repeater signs, brilliant, they were always too small to actually work to be honest.

Average speed cameras? Meh, I never push too hard on the motorway, waste of fuel. Sure it's going to be a revenue generating exercise but it may work to keep traffic flowing at an even rate.

djimi

How can we have an "end of speed limit" sign when we dont have a national speed limit?

Mycroft H

djimi wrote: »

How can we have an "end of speed limit" sign when we dont have a national speed limit?

80km/h on regional roads
100km/h on national roads
and 120km/h on Motorways?

Atomic Pineapple

Anan1 wrote: »

I really don't see much here to whinge about at all.

I agree, if implemented properly the proposals here are fairly good.

Average speed detection is a much fairer way of catching people dangerously speeding and I would imagine less likely to catch people who have drifted slightly over by being caught in a single instance of their driving.

The black and white signs should never have went, its great to see them coming back, sure the cost is a bad thing we will have to stomach for the initial stupid proposal of putting actual speed limit numbered signs everywhere but a general sign to say the max you can go is 80km/h and you need to be able to consciously calculate the correct speed on your own is a good thing.

Variable speed limits are also a great idea and about time they were brought in but these need to be supported by pre education to reinforce the thinking that drivers need to assess the conditions themselves and be able to choose the correct speed.

The one thing that is missing is any sort of information on the increasing of roads where the limit is clearly too low, the black and white sign will take care of most cases where the limit is too high but there are a lot of cases where the limit is as much as 20km/h too low on some roads and it would have been nice to see these roads highlighted for at least incremental speed limit increases over time.

As I said if implemented properly its a positive report overall.

antodeco

Mycroft H wrote: »

80km/h on regional roads
100km/h on national roads
and 120km/h on Motorways?

But its 100Kmh on the M50?

Mycroft H

antodeco wrote: »

But its 100Kmh on the M50?

Well then it's exactly like the UK then; 120km/h unless otherwise posted, that's what that sign means. The M50 would obviously keep the 100km/h signs until you go south of J14 and the standard/national speed limit then applies. Don't see what the fuss is about.

Ded_Zebra

5. So-called ‘silly signs’ - such as a 100kmh speed limit on a dangerous corner where a lower speed would be more appropriate – will be removed. Inappropriate ‘repeater’ signs are already being removed.

10. The rules for the setting of temporary speed limits to allow for road works will be updated. This will allow City and County Managers to apply speed limits at road works more responsively, and flexibly - for example to apply lower limits only while works are underway.

The only points that are good IMO. The rest is total sh!t and will just make our roads more hateful than they already are :mad:

Atomic Pineapple

Mycroft H wrote: »

Well then it's exactly like the UK then; 120km/h unless otherwise posted, that's what that sign means. The M50 would obviously keep the 100km/h signs until you go south of J14 and the standard/national speed limit then applies. Don't see what the fuss is about.

Don't think that's correct, think it will be the black and white signs will replace entry points to the 80km/h national limit and all other higher limits will be signed posted, so 100km/h zones will keep their signs as will 120km/h zones.

Mycroft H

Atomic Pineapple wrote: »

Don't think that's correct, think it will be the black and white signs will replace entry points to the 80km/h national limit and all other higher limits will be signed posted, so 100km/h zones will keep their signs as will 120km/h zones.

Ahh thought they were going the whole way. Pity, would have made more sense.

djimi

Mycroft H wrote: »

80km/h on regional roads
100km/h on national roads
and 120km/h on Motorways?

Thats not a national speed limit, and its far from standard that those limits apply to those roads.

The old "end of limit" sign used to signify that the current limit had ended and you were returning to the national limit (say 55mph at the time). We dont have a national speed limit any more; the new system was supposed to mean that each section of every road in the country is assigned its own speed limit. Reverting back the old signage no longer makes any sense.

Unless they are just planning on replacing all the 80 signs with this new sign, which makes no sense whatsoever.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Mycroft H

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

You're going to have to back up the last bit. The UK has been using the national speed limit for years and I've never heard of it having a major impact on RTC.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

djimi

So we are officially going back to having a national speed limit then? What is the point? The new system that we have works fine; just leave it alone ffs.

Theanswers

Motorways full of accidents?? There is no need for average speeds check on the motorways. Perfectly safe to go well over the speed limit.

Rarely any incidents.

All this means now is UK/NI cars will be free to speed away whilst the irish motorist tipping along good and slow.

Shower of useless idiots....

Money Money Money..

_Kaiser_

Mycroft H wrote: »

You're going to have to back up the last bit. The UK has been using the national speed limit for years and I've never heard of it having a major impact on RTC.

The point is that that sign just over the border means 60 mph/100 km/h, not the 50 mph/80 km/h this one would.

It's a retrograde step that, coupled with the removal of repeaters, I can only assume is designed to raise money through uncertainty of what the limit should be and thus being nabbed by a speed check.

I mean, I've seen several threads here asking what that sign mean up north and others about how they join a road and have no idea what the limit is until several km down it.

There can be no valid justification for replacing clarity with ambiguity which is what those proposals are recommending.

Ken.

This is the government doing what every co.co. in the country does at this time of year. We got X amount from Europe last year. If we don't spend waste the money before the year is out they'll cut us next year.

Tea 1000

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Really? That's nonsense. What on earth is the justification for going from a very clear system to one that makes less sense and makes it harder for someone unfamiliar to the area to determine what the limit is

Oh wait... uncertainty + more speed traps = PROFIT!! :rolleyes:

Brought to you by the same geniuses that gave you the 1x1/1x2 Reg system and the new unnecessary motorway sign proposals that will make them a shambles too.

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Lads - ye're not thinking like a politician. They're not doing it to make more money from speed traps, as they don't really make the profit from those.
They're doing it for the same reason that they're upgrading the motorway signs - that someone who owns the signage company is special friends with someone in the Dáil.
What's the chances of one of us here setting up our own new signage company getting the contract for the new limit signs? Not a hope would be the answer.

BMJD

Tea 1000 wrote: »

Lads - ye're not thinking like a politician. They're not doing it to make more money from speed traps, as they don't really make the profit from those.
They're doing it for the same reason that they're upgrading the motorway signs - that someone who owns the signage company is special friends with someone in the Dáil.
What's the chances of one of us here setting up our own new signage company getting the contract for the new limit signs? Not a hope would be the answer.

you're right there, Ted

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail1998052800022?opendocument

Re: Mr. Ray Burke, TD, Rennicks Signs, members of the Fitzwilton Group.

Prior to the 1989 general election, the Rennicks Company applied to the IDA for substantial grants for the manufacturing of road signs and went to see the then Minister for Industry with responsibility for the IDA, Ray Burke TD, to brief him on their application for IDA financial support. In attendance was Mr. Robin Rennicks, Managing Director; Mr. Paul Power, Director; Mr. Ray McKenna, financial advisor to the Fitzwilton group and Rennicks companies. Having briefed Mr. Burke, Mr. Burke introduced the subject of financial support for himself and his party and bluntly requested £30,000. This caused amazement and embarrassment to the delegation. They requested the opportunity to consider the matter. Mr. Rennicks paid over £30,000 to Ray Burke TD.

:mad:

Days 298

Drive from cork to Dublin. Switch drivers in a rest zone. Who gets the points? Or will this encourage people not to switch drivers when they are knackered if the other passenger has a heavier foot and they don't want to risk points?

Safest roads will have the strictest enforcement. Average cameras would be better served inside school areas during opening and closing.

Larbre34

Some stuff out of Varadkar's department is progressive and appropriate. This however is pure stupid. There are some shams out there who haven't caught up to the notion that the speed limits are in km/h yet, never mind the return of 'national speed limit applies' in lieu of 80 limit signs

After all the years of getting road deaths down, why take the chance of creating ambiguity? "Letting drivers use their own judgement" is the most ridiculous retrograde notion Ive heard in a long time. They will use their judgement alright, to way beyond 80 km/h! Good luck to the traffic cops trying to get on top of that one in court.

For example the urban limit is generally 50 km/h, using your judgement means you do 20 km/h if theres a bin lorry trundling along in front of you, but you still know what the limit is. If the 80 km/h sign and the 'national limit applies' sign are effectively going to mean the same thing, then why waste a bucket load of money we dont have changing the bye-laws and the signs for no good reason!

As much as I resent them, Ive a half a mind to email the troika and let them know the Govt have found novel ways already of p155ing their money away.........

AugustusMinimus

People on here seem to be getting confused about this new sign.

The new sign won't be a National Speed limit sign. It will be a sign indicating 80kph speed limit ahead.

djimi

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

People on here seem to be getting confused about this new sign.

The new sign won't be a National Speed limit sign. It will be a sign indicating 80kph speed limit ahead.

We already have one of those; its got a big red 80 on it. Why would we need to change it?

And its confusing because in other countries, and indeed in our own up until 9 years ago, the sign that is being proposed meant return to the national speed limit. The confusion that it will bring is that Ireland does not have a national speed limit, and that article makes no formal mention of one returning.

AugustusMinimus

djimi wrote: »

We already have one of those; its got a big red 80 on it. Why would we need to change it?

I completely agree. This document is a load of nonsense and is there to give someone a job, to sell road sign and the justify the existence of the RSA.

Tea 1000

BMJD wrote: »

you're right there, Ted

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail1998052800022?opendocument




:mad:

Yep, just as I suspected.

No Pants

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

There can be no valid justification for replacing clarity with ambiguity which is what those proposals are recommending.

It's certainly going to be tough on you Kaiser. If it's not clear what the limit is, you're going to have a hard time deciding who gets your seal of approval to drive on public roads.

wil

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

People on here seem to be getting confused about this new sign.

The new sign won't be a National Speed limit sign. It will be a sign indicating 80kph speed limit ahead.

You seem a little confused.
The new sign will indicate the "Rural speed limit"

AugustusMinimus wrote: »

News already. All 80kph signs on both Rural and Local roads to be replaced with the old black circle and line through it to indicate the rural speed limit of 80kph will apply.



Another monstrous waste of money.

Agree, but while we will be getting the old black circle, the diagonal stripes are new.
Wouldn't want someone resurrecting a load of old signs would we.

_Kaiser_

No Pants wrote: »

It's certainly going to be tough on you Kaiser. If it's not clear what the limit is, you're going to have a hard time deciding who gets your seal of approval to drive on public roads.

Nah not really.. Assuming you're referring to my disdain of dawdlers, I'll just do what I do now, blast past you and have forgotten about you 10 seconds later*

*Reply may not be serious

/troll feeding

No Pants

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

blast past you

Yeah, good luck with that.

Leonard Hofstadter

This is monumentally stupid. Getting rid of perfectly good 80 kph signs so that we can go back to using the signs we always used to use when we were using mph.

The parallel universe that exists between civil servants, consultants and Ministers and the ordinary voter continues.

Bullcrap like this reminds me why I'm glad I no longer live in Ireland.

They haven't said anything about getting rid of the stupidly low limits on the Waterford city bypass not to mention the dual carriageway near Sligo either.

And don't get me started on bringing in average speed cameras on motorways - there is no other reason than to make the Government more money that these stupid things are being brought in - everyone knows that motorways are BY FAR the safest roads we have - so why more speed cameras on roads that are already safe?

I was at a very interesting seminar today on the constant misuse of statistics by vested interests and Governments and funnily enough, speed cameras came up.

As the gentleman who was explaining about 'spikes' said, you can have a year or two where road deaths shoot up, then people decide 'oh that requires a speed camera', install the said speed camera, and then when deaths go back to normal declare the speed camera to have been a 'success' when in fact it was just a spike and was always going to be a case of regression to the mean anyway:(.

Unfortunately, our idiotic media will never challenge the Government and the RSA on their misuse and exaggeration of the supposed effectiveness of speed cameras.

Perhaps in 20 years time we will discover the error of our ways and copy what's been done in the UK where they've got rid of most of their cameras. While the UK road network is heavily congested, at least when there is little to no traffic there is no dawdling and everyone does a minimum of 70 mph on the motorway. Indeed, even at 80 mph you'd find plenty of people overtaking you on a British motorway. Yet in Ireland, people seem to be terrified of going beyond about 110 never mind doing the motorway limit of 120 kph.

_Kaiser_

Reading through the full report here



Well yes, sign 1 is nonsense - but how on earth is that clearer?? :rolleyes:

A 50/30 km/h sign would be a far better option!

EDIT: Oh and in section 4.3.5 (Action 15) they refer to such a road as follows:

1. Rural (Quiet) Lane
Quiet Lanes are minor rural roads which are appropriate for shared use by walkers, cyclists, horse riders and motorised users. They should have low traffic flows travelling at low speeds. In Ireland this concept, already applied in the UK, could be applied certain situations whereby a rural lane or Boreen could be formally designated under the Roads Act.

It is recommended that such a measure be developed and piloted such that it would specifically imply a lower default and maximum permitted Speed Limit with very low limits also being permitted.

So, not only do they want to change the signs on such roads, they want to reclassify them entirely with lower limits anyway?!

So.. just resign them as 30 km/h.. no need for new vague signs OR legislative support to invent a whole new road type!

Holsten

Average speed limits.. wtf?

Motorway speed limits need to be RAISED and drivers told to KEEP LEFT.

Idiots.