Changes to Letting Situation

OldNotWIse

Looking for a bit of advice. OH and myself are currently renting. Our one year lease expired at the end of September. We were contacted by LL asking if we could sign another lease for 12 months and we said no (visa/job issues - we were not in a position to commit to 12 months in the same place). I was surprised as any time I have rented before, when the 12 months pass, it usually just continues on with both parties subject to one months notice.

Anyway, its LL's decision. I then got a text saying rent will be increasing by 150eur per month from January, with a one year lease. Again, I know this is up to LL. It seems daft that we would have to be moving out of the house on new year's day but I'm not in a position to pay 150 more or get into a one year contract. This would also mean I will need to give one months notice on December 1st. If we dont do this, and LL doesnt give us notice, maybe we could get away with giving notice on December 15th, at least giving us until Jan 15th to vacate (I doubt LL will find someone to move in new years day, and we do not want people coming around viewing the place over Christmas).

Are we still subject to a months notice after the lease has expired? LL has our deposit so I would be iffy about not giving notice if it is required.

runawaybishop

Is that rental increase in line with other similar properties in the area. If not you can refute it. You are on part 4 tenancy now and must give sufficient notice, which works both ways.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/if_your_landlord_wants_you_to_leave.html

edit: you need to notify them you are exercising your part 4 rights.

edit edit: are you just paying month by month, with the landlords agreement?

djimi

The landlord cannot insist on the lease being re-signed. No matter what they say or what changes they make to the terms.

They can increase the rent once in a 12 month period, provided it is in line with the current market rate for the area. €150 seems a big jump after 12 months; Id certainly be investigating. The question you need to ask is how likely are they to get the new rent from a new tenant. If the answer is not very likely/not likely at all then its higher than is justifiable.

The rent increase automatically takes effect after 28 days unless you dispute it, even if you serve notice to leave (some landlords may waive the increase for the duration of the notice if you decide to leave). So there is nothing to stop you accepting the increase, not signing a lease and then leaving when it suits you.

OldNotWIse

runawaybishop wrote: »

Is that rental increase in line with other similar properties in the area. If not you can refute it. You are on part 4 tenancy now and must give sufficient notice, which works both ways.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/if_your_landlord_wants_you_to_leave.html

edit: you need to notify them you are exercising your part 4 rights.

edit edit: are you just paying month by month, with the landlords agreement?

I suspect she will get the extra rent alright.

We are just paying month by month at the moment.

OldNotWIse

djimi wrote: »

The landlord cannot insist on the lease being re-signed. No matter what they say or what changes they make to the terms.

They can increase the rent once in a 12 month period, provided it is in line with the current market rate for the area. €150 seems a big jump after 12 months; Id certainly be investigating. The question you need to ask is how likely are they to get the new rent from a new tenant. If the answer is not very likely/not likely at all then its higher than is justifiable.

The rent increase automatically takes effect after 28 days unless you dispute it, even if you serve notice to leave (some landlords may waive the increase for the duration of the notice if you decide to leave). So there is nothing to stop you accepting the increase, not signing a lease and then leaving when it suits you.

So I can pay my rent on December 1st, wait one month and then serve notice January first? New rent would be due that day though and I suspect she will want a new lease signed before that?

runawaybishop

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I suspect she will get the extra rent alright.

We are just paying month by month at the moment.

Claiming a Part 4 tenancy during a periodic tenancy
If you are in a periodic tenancy (renting without a lease or a contract) you also have automatic security of tenure under Part 4 of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 but you don’t have to notify your landlord of your intention to remain in the property for up to 4 years.

OldNotWIse wrote: »

So I can pay my rent on December 1st, wait one month and then serve notice January first? New rent would be due that day though and I suspect she will want a new lease signed before that?

Notice amounts:
6 months to 1 year ::: 5 weeks (35 days)
1 – 2 years ::: 6 weeks (42 days)

Take a read of this -http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/types_of_tenancy.html

_Kaiser_

You're under no obligation to sign a new lease either way - regardless of what they want.

The rent increase is a different matter though, and if it's the average rate for the area then they can justifiably ask for it. If you choose not to pay it though then you either renegotiate or you serve notice.

OldNotWIse

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

You're under no obligation to sign a new lease either way - regardless of what they want.

The rent increase is a different matter though, and if it's the average rate for the area then they can justifiably ask for it. If you choose not to pay it though then you either renegotiate or you serve notice.

So I can at least text LL and say that we are not under an obligation to sign a new lease? She will probably give us notice then... Even if she doesnt, and we serve (6 weeks?) notice Jan 1st, will we be liable to pay teh extra 150?

runawaybishop

OldNotWIse wrote: »

So I can at least text LL and say that we are not under an obligation to sign a new lease? She will probably give us notice then...

She cant give you notice unless its under a specific set of circumstances. You have a ton of rights. You can choose to stay in the house (albeit with the new rent assuming it is fair) for up to 4 years.

Cheshire Cat

Nobody can force you to sign a new lease. Your LL can of course ask you, all you nned to do is to tell her NO politely. Just be careful with the notice you give. You are on a Part 4 tenancy and need to give 42 days notice if you have been there between 1 and 2 years. Best to ask citizens information or threshold to make absolutely sure.

djimi

OldNotWIse wrote: »

So I can at least text LL and say that we are not under an obligation to sign a new lease? She will probably give us notice then... Even if she doesnt, and we serve (6 weeks?) notice Jan 1st, will we be liable to pay teh extra 150?

You need to go off and read up on your part 4 tenancy rights so that you can approach this situation armed with all the relative information.

The landlord cannot insist that you sign a new lease, and cannot terminate the tenancy if you do not. End of story. They can claim anything that they like to the contrary; these are your basic rights as afforded to you by the part 4 tenancy.

With regards to the rent increase, if for example you pay your rent on Dec 1st, and on the same day you are issued with a notice of rent increase, then the next rent you pay (on Jan 1st) will have the increase included, unless you dispute the increase with the PRTB in the meantime. Whether or not you decide to leave is an entirely seperate matter; you can issue the relevant notice any time you want after the lease expires, but the rent increase will still apply regardless for the time you remain in the property paying rent.

OldNotWIse

thanks. Have checked and it says:

Your landlord must give you at least 28 days written notice of the new rent before it takes effect.
It's important to note that if you sign a one year fixed term lease the landlord is not obliged to grant a rent review as the rent has been set for the period of the lease.
Where you are disputing a rent review you must refer a dispute to the PRTB within 28 days and continue paying the current rent until the PRTB issue a Determination Order.

So from this I think we will be able to continue paying current rent as it is, and any texts from her re signing new lease will be met with a polite "no". I dont know what to do re texts saying rent is increasing (this is all we've had) - they hardly count as written notice. When she does decide to give us written notice we then have 28 days to dispute it int he PRTB and that will probably take a while I guess. So, looks like we wont be moving out Jan 1st. I'm going to check with PRTB that backdated difference not due should upward review be deemed fair.

edit: I am afraid a can of worms may be opened here though, as I am fairly sure the property is not registered so when I disoute with PRTB this may come to light...

runawaybishop

OldNotWIse wrote: »

thanks. Have checked and it says:

Your landlord must give you at least 28 days written notice of the new rent before it takes effect.
It's important to note that if you sign a one year fixed term lease the landlord is not obliged to grant a rent review as the rent has been set for the period of the lease.
Where you are disputing a rent review you must refer a dispute to the PRTB within 28 days and continue paying the current rent until the PRTB issue a Determination Order.

So from this I think we will be able to continue paying current rent as it is, and any texts from her re signing new lease will be met with a polite "no". I dont know what to do re texts saying rent is increasing (this is all we've had) - they hardly count as written notice. When she does decide to give us written notice we then have 28 days to dispute it int he PRTB and that will probably take a while I guess. So, looks like we wont be moving out Jan 1st. I'm going to check with PRTB that backdated difference not due should upward review be deemed fair.

If the review is deemed fair then you do have to pay the difference, until the review is carried out you stick at the initial rental.

OldNotWIse

runawaybishop wrote: »

If the review is deemed fair then you do have to pay the difference, until the review is carried out you stick at the initial rental.

ok thanks. I dont mind paying the difference if that is the case, but I just really dont want the upheaval of looking for somewhere else and moving over Christmas/new year

djimi

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I dont know what to do re texts saying rent is increasing (this is all we've had) - they hardly count as written notice.

If the texts are worded correctly (ie state the reviewed amount and the date on while the increase will take place) then they seem to be valid as far as the PRTB are concerned anyway.

runawaybishop

OldNotWIse wrote: »

ok thanks. I dont mind paying the difference if that is the case, but I just really dont want the upheaval of looking for somewhere else and moving over Christmas/new year

You can put that worry out of your mind at least. Can you provide the wording of the notification of the rental increase - it needs to be done properly.

OldNotWIse

djimi wrote: »

If the texts are worded correctly (ie state the reviewed amount and the date on while the increase will take place) then they seem to be valid as far as the PRTB are concerned anyway.

ok I better get onto PRTB in the next while so.

OldNotWIse

runawaybishop wrote: »

You can put that worry out of your mind at least. Can you provide the wording of the notification of the rental increase - it needs to be done properly.

Cant remember off the top of my head but something along the lines of "sorry to have to do this but I need to charge 850 per onth from 1st Jan in order to keep up with property tax payments" - something to that effect.

I feel like I should text her back something as she texted today asking what my plans are but I dont want to talk myself into or out of anything until I am sure of my rights

djimi

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Cant remember off the top of my head but something along the lines of "sorry to have to do this but I need to charge 850 per onth from 1st Jan in order to keep up with property tax payments" - something to that effect.

While the landlord is quite within their rights to increase the rent (within legal boundaries) for any reason they see fit, this actually annoys me. The property would have to be worth over a million Euro for a property tax of €2000 a year to apply; if they want to increase the rent then fine, but it would be nice if they didnt use BS excuses to do it.

runawaybishop

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Cant remember off the top of my head but something along the lines of "sorry to have to do this but I need to charge 850 per onth from 1st Jan in order to keep up with property tax payments" - something to that effect.

I feel like I should text her back something as she texted today asking what my plans are but I dont want to talk myself into or out of anything until I am sure of my rights

Seems like it could be valid then, it states the amount and the date it begins. You think its a fair amount? No point perusing it with PRTB if it is.

runawaybishop

djimi wrote: »

While the landlord is quite within their rights to increase the rent (within legal boundaries) for any reason they see fit, this actually annoys me. The property would have to be worth over a million Euro for a property tax of €2000 a year to apply; if they want to increase the rent then fine, but it would be nice if they didnt use BS excuses to do it.

Agreed, I'd be challenging the landlord on that tax assertion alright.

OldNotWIse

djimi wrote: »

While the landlord is quite within their rights to increase the rent (within legal boundaries) for any reason they see fit, this actually annoys me. The property would have to be worth over a million Euro for a property tax of €2000 a year to apply; if they want to increase the rent then fine, but it would be nice if they didnt use BS excuses to do it.

Especially given that I supsect she has not registered the property anyway and so is likely not paying rental income on it. The irony is if she ends up having to register it, she will be out of pocket anyway.

djimi

runawaybishop wrote: »

Agreed, I'd be challenging the landlord on that tax assertion alright.

Challenging it probably wont come to much; ultimately they can increase for whatever reason they want. It would just be nice if they were honest, or better yet said nothing, rather than coming up with some lame excuse that is obviously nonsense.

djimi

runawaybishop wrote: »

Seems like it could be valid then, it states the amount and the date it begins. You think its a fair amount? No point perusing it with PRTB if it is.

Agree with this; you need to go off and do your homework and figure out the average rental price for similar properties in your area before challenging this. 700 to 850 is a fair jump, especially seeing as how the property was only worth 700 this time last year, but rental markets have gone a bit crazy in certain areas recently and demand is high with supply low, so it may well be completely justifiable of an increase.

OldNotWIse

runawaybishop wrote: »

Seems like it could be valid then, it states the amount and the date it begins. You think its a fair amount? No point perusing it with PRTB if it is.

Im just thinking from the point of view of buying more time. I dont to be trying to find somewhere by January 1st.

OldNotWIse

Any ideas what, if anything, I should say to her for now?

djimi

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Im just thinking from the point of view of buying more time. I dont to be trying to find somewhere by January 1st.

You need to get out of the mindset that you can be asked to move; you cant. You move when you want to; it has absolutely nothing to do with the rent increase.

Unless you genuinely believe that the increase is unjustified (and it may well be) then I wouldnt bother wasting time with the PRTB as you will just end up owing the money either way if you lose.

djimi

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Any ideas what, if anything, I should say to her for now?

"We do not wish to sign a new lease, and instead wish to remain in the property on a part 4 tenancy." (there is nothing that she can say to this other than okay).

If you accept the rent increase then say nothing. If you wish to dispute it then lodge a dispute and let her know. Alternatively, you could try and negotiate a lower increase (she has given you a good opening here as the reason for the increase is nonsense).

OldNotWIse

djimi wrote: »

You need to get out of the mindset that you can be asked to move; you cant. You move when you want to; it has absolutely nothing to do with the rent increase.

Unless you genuinely believe that the increase is unjustified (and it may well be) then I wouldnt bother wasting time with the PRTB as you will just end up owing the money either way if you lose.

I dont know if its justified or not. I think 700 was good for what we got, but 850 is a big jump. It doesnt suit us to move now or in January. So, will I just text her and say that we will not be moving, will not be signing another 12 month lease and re the rent increase...either pay it or decide to refer to PRTB for assessment?

djimi

Basically. Do it in letter or email if possible, and specifically state that you wish to remain in the property on a part 4 tenancy (this is actually a legal requirement, so be sure to mention the part 4 tenancy).

Have a look on Daft and see what other similar properties in the area are renting for. This will give you a better idea of where you stand.

OldNotWIse

djimi wrote: »

Basically. Do it in letter or email if possible, and specifically state that you wish to remain in the property on a part 4 tenancy (this is actually a legal requirement, so be sure to mention the part 4 tenancy).

Have a look on Daft and see what other similar properties in the area are renting for. This will give you a better idea of where you stand.

ok, will do. Does this pose a problem?
"If you have a fixed-term contract or lease (for example of 1 year) and you wish to remain in the property under the rights acquired under Part 4, you must notify your landlord of your intention to stay in the property between 3 months and 1 month before the expiry of your fixed–term tenancy or lease agreement" - the fact that we have now passed the expiration of our lease agreement?

djimi

Not really. In theory you are supposed to inform them of your intention to remain on a part 4 prior to the lease expiring (this is the legal requirement that I refer to), but the only actual repercussion of not doing so is that you might be liable for any costs that they incur while under the assumption that you were leaving, which basically amounts to readvertising costs. In reality its highly unlikely that not informing them of your intention to remain on a part 4 will have any bearing on you whatsoever.

A landlord can never refuse you part 4 rights.

runawaybishop

djimi wrote: »

Not really. In theory you are supposed to inform them of your intention to remain on a part 4 prior to the lease expiring (this is the legal requirement that I refer to), but the only actual repercussion of not doing so is that you might be liable for any costs that they incur while under the assumption that you were leaving, which basically amounts to readvertising costs. In reality its highly unlikely that not informing them of your intention to remain on a part 4 will have any bearing on you whatsoever.

A landlord can never refuse you part 4 rights.

You dont need to state part 4 if you are rolling on each month though, which is the case i think here (lease up in sept). Not that it will be a negative if you do mention it.

OldNotWIse

Thanks guys very much for all your helpful advice!

runawaybishop

djimi wrote: »

If you accept the rent increase then say nothing. If you wish to dispute it then lodge a dispute and let her know. Alternatively, you could try and negotiate a lower increase (she has given you a good opening here as the reason for the increase is nonsense).

Agreed, should probably do this anyway before disputing the increase.

OldNotWIse

I sent a letter to the landlord stating our intention to remain under part 4 tenancy. I did not mention anything about proposed rent increase - Threshold informed me that a text does not constitute sufficient written notification. I will wait for written notification and then reply, stating that we can stretch to a halfway point between the two amounts, if this is not acceped then we will refer to PRTB for assessment. I suspect that LL will meet us halfway at the mention of PRTB. If not, we will proceed with review. If the increase is found to be fair I will pay backdated difference but it is likley we will look for somewhere else if this happens. Let's just wait and see. Trying not to stress about it too much, so many things going on at the moment.

runawaybishop

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I sent a letter to the landlord stating our intention to remain under part 4 tenancy. I did not mention anything about proposed rent increase - Threshold informed me that a text does not constitute sufficient written notification. I will wait for written notification and then reply, stating that we can stretch to a halfway point between the two amounts, if this is not acceped then we will refer to PRTB for assessment. I suspect that LL will meet us halfway at the mention of PRTB. If not, we will proceed with review. If the increase is found to be fair I will pay backdated difference but it is likley we will look for somewhere else if this happens. Let's just wait and see. Trying not to stress about it too much, so many things going on at the moment.

Did threshold say why the text wasn't sufficient?

djimi

It seems that Threshold are wrong about the text message not being valid notification as the PRTB seem to accepting it as a valid form of written communication (or so Ive heard anyway).

OldNotWIse

runawaybishop wrote: »

Did threshold say why the text wasn't sufficient?

No. Could be related to the fact that I have texts from same LL only weeks before offering another 12 month lease with same rent. I dont know. Thats just what I was told. Anyway, going to see what reply I get. If LL texts/calls I will ask for written notification.

OldNotWIse

According to the Residential Tenancies Act 2004, "notice" (for anything that requires it) can be done:

A) by delivering it to the person
by leaving it at the address where the person ordinarliy resides
C) by sending it by post to where the person ordinarliy resides
D) by affixing to a conspicuous place - although this only refers to notices in respect of a dwelling and nobody seems to live there!:D

The_Conductor

OldNotWIse wrote: »

According to the Residential Tenancies Act 2004, "notice" (for anything that requires it) can be done:

A) by delivering it to the person
by leaving it at the address where the person ordinarliy resides
C) by sending it by post to where the person ordinarliy resides
D) by affixing to a conspicuous place - although this only refers to notices in respect of a dwelling and nobody seems to live there!:D

Note- they have precedent for accepting e-mails and text messages, as valid methods of communication too (as per several recent cases). Not ideal- but acceptable, apparently.

djimi

Thomas D wrote: »

The €150 is a 21% rental price increase in a year. No way is that justified. You can use this to prove your case.

http://www.cso.ie/px/pxeirestat/Statire/SelectVarVal/Define.asp?maintable=RIQ02&ProductID=DB_RI&PLanguage=0

Take your starting rent as fair market price. Put in the equivalent property and location type in the index abbove. Get a percentage increase (if there is one) from when you started renting to the current month. If they are requesting more than this increase you do not have to pay it. This is a proper statistical index and far superior to random ads on daft.

Percentage increase means nothing without knowing what the original rent was and how the increased amount compared to the current market.

Simply put, if the landlord is likely to get the increased rent for the property from a new tenant (this is where comparing Daft ads comes into it) then the increase will be deemed to be fair. €150 increase on the face of it sounds high, but if the place was rented for a low amount to start with, and is in a high demand area, then it might not be unjustified at all. Unfair perhaps, but unfortunately fair does not come into it.

OldNotWIse

Well still haven't heard anything from LL.