Buy cattle in MART, then instantly sell to factory

Gilroy

Hi all,

If you buy a 600kg to 700kg animal in the mart or any size, can you sell straight to the factory the next day....

I have a keen eye for a bargain but do you need to hold onto them for a certain period of time???

Do you need a dealers license?

Can i do this without a dealers license and just by using my herd number?

Let me know your views.

bob charles

Gilroy wrote: »

Hi all,

If you buy a 600kg to 700kg animal in the mart or any size, can you sell straight to the factory the next day....

I have a keen eye for a bargain but do you need to hold onto them for a certain period of time???

Do you need a dealers license?

Can i do this without a dealers license and just by using my herd number?

Let me know your views.

go for it, its a sure way to make money:rolleyes:, unforunately I can understand how anyone makes a penny doing such. None of the animals with be QA'ed which will give you a fair hit on price plus you will be on a lower base price. You could be back 20c a kilo to even begin with. Your costs would be 35 - 50 a head between hammer price and money in the bank price. We need a good new buyer in the marts after last weeks shambles so up you step

jomoloney

you can fast turn up to 100 head per annum without a dealer's license


for the past 2 weeks there are certianly cattle going through the ring that would be worth more on the hook, but as stated you need to take in consideraton the hidden costs

nashmach

bob charles wrote: »

go for it, its a sure way to make money:rolleyes:, unforunately I can understand how anyone makes a penny doing such. None of the animals with be QA'ed which will give you a fair hit on price plus you will be on a lower base price. You could be back 20c a kilo to even begin with. Your costs would be 35 - 50 a head between hammer price and money in the bank price. We need a good new buyer in the marts after last weeks shambles so up you step

Bob, your costs are probably a bit light there even.

€10 commission and surely €25 haulage and then on top of that Insurance, ABB levy, IFA levy, E?? Levy etc.

There are plenty of agents around the ring who know exactly the price so you won't get any bargain at that craic.

Zr105

Wasnt there an article in some i the papers a year or 2 ago were they guy bought a few factory cattle in the mart and every one of them made more or less exactly what the last bid before him was, ie the boys at the ring new exactly what they'd make and he had to go a bi past that to buy them, so that was his loss never mind the commission etc

bob charles

Zr105 wrote: »

Wasnt there an article in some i the papers a year or 2 ago were they guy bought a few factory cattle in the mart and every one of them made more or less exactly what the last bid before him was, ie the boys at the ring new exactly what they'd make and he had to go a bi past that to buy them, so that was his loss never mind the commission etc

Think that was John Shirley that done that as a bit of an experiment, As far as I remember he lost money on the load. Any person buying cattle to feed can take out a person going slaughtering in a short space of time. Then if you buy a cheap animal you lose out on the potential of the animal to feed for 100 days. One smart man told me he lost 34k in his first year:D:D

bbam

Gilroy wrote: »

Hi all,

If you buy a 600kg to 700kg animal in the mart or any size, can you sell straight to the factory the next day....

I have a keen eye for a bargain but do you need to hold onto them for a certain period of time???

Do you need a dealers license?

Can i do this without a dealers license and just by using my herd number?

Let me know your views.

There are lads at it so it's possible.
Really it's all down to your ability to but at a decent price. You feel you can do this so that's a start.

I'd say give it a go. Buy a few and move them on. See how it works out. Worst case you'll loose a few quid and then just stop. If it works out you'll be able to earn a few quid and there's a new buyer ringside which is good too.

Expect a bit of messing from the usual suspects. They'll try and drive cattle on on you. If you can spot this going on it will save your skin. Learn who to watch for this, they're in every mart and think only they should get a good deal on stock.

bob charles

nashmach wrote: »

Bob, your costs are probably a bit light there even.

€10 commission and surely €25 haulage and then on top of that Insurance, ABB levy, IFA levy, E?? Levy etc.

There are plenty of agents around the ring who know exactly the price so you won't get any bargain at that craic.

you wouldnt last long buying fat animals up your side of the country with a certain few buckos

Gilroy

jomoloney wrote: »

you can fast turn up to 100 head per annum without a dealer's license


for the past 2 weeks there are certianly cattle going through the ring that would be worth more on the hook, but as stated you need to take in consideraton the hidden costs

So you can do this without a dealers license? Can you explain. I agree with you the last two weeks mart prices have been stable and a keen eye would make money.

Gilroy

bbam wrote: »

There are lads at it so it's possible.
Really it's all down to your ability to but at a decent price. You feel you can do this so that's a start.

I'd say give it a go. Buy a few and move them on. See how it works out. Worst case you'll loose a few quid and then just stop. If it works out you'll be able to earn a few quid and there's a new buyer ringside which is good too.

Expect a bit of messing from the usual suspects. They'll try and drive cattle on on you. If you can spot this going on it will save your skin. Learn who to watch for this, they're in every mart and think only they should get a good deal on stock.

Thanks bbam, i think its worth a pop and lets see if it works out. Plan to buy around 5 good quality bullocks above 650kg.

Still unsure if i can deal like this without a dealers license???? Buy then sell straight away.

Do i have to up my stock holding with the department and do the 5 cattle i want to kill need to be in test....

Zr105

bob charles wrote: »

Think that was John Shirley that done that as a bit of an experiment, As far as I remember he lost money on the load. Any person buying cattle to feed can take out a person going slaughtering in a short space of time. Then if you buy a cheap animal you lose out on the potential of the animal to feed for 100 days. One smart man told me he lost 34k in his first year:D:D

Yeah that was it alright! Basically what he lost was the difference between his last bid and the one immediately before, plus commission/ transport etc if i remeber rightly!

bbam

Gilroy wrote: »

Thanks bbam, i think its worth a pop and lets see if it works out. Plan to buy around 5 good quality bullocks above 650kg.

Still unsure if i can deal like this without a dealers license???? Buy then sell straight away.

Do i have to up my stock holding with the department and do the 5 cattle i want to kill need to be in test....

Iin understanding is that provided you don't keep them more than a week they can be moved without test. And you can move a reasonable number without needing a dealers lisence , just not sure how many., but it's enough for you to test out your idea.

The worst thing that can happen is you fail and loose a few quid, and you wouldn't be the only farmer doing that!! People in Ireland are sometimes too cautious about trying out a new idea, lots of reservations and usually the biggest one is worrying what people will think/say if it goes wrong.
Do your sums first, add up the costs and see if you think there is a worthwhile margin. If you do then there's your answer.

Zr105

Gilroy wrote: »

Thanks bbam, i think its worth a pop and lets see if it works out. Plan to buy around 5 good quality bullocks above 650kg.

Still unsure if i can deal like this without a dealers license???? Buy then sell straight away.

Do i have to up my stock holding with the department and do the 5 cattle i want to kill need to be in test....

You can do it up to 100 cattle cant remeber if it was here or some were else in last few days someone posted a letter from department stating he was ok to do so up to 100 head a year

Gilroy

bob charles wrote: »

Think that was John Shirley that done that as a bit of an experiment, As far as I remember he lost money on the load. Any person buying cattle to feed can take out a person going slaughtering in a short space of time. Then if you buy a cheap animal you lose out on the potential of the animal to feed for 100 days. One smart man told me he lost 34k in his first year:D:D

I would be interested to see that article if you could send me the link. Sounds an interesting read.

Gilroy

Zr105 wrote: »

Yeah that was it alright! Basically what he lost was the difference between his last bid and the one immediately before, plus commission/ transport etc if i remeber rightly!

Post the link to that article if you have it.

bob charles

Gilroy wrote: »

I would be interested to see that article if you could send me the link. Sounds an interesting read.

I havnt a clue about how to find it, It could be 3 yrs ago now. basically he was taking on the buyers at their own game and most animal lost between a fiver and tennor and this was where the dealers/buyers had dropped out which showed they were on the money. I would enquire about your outlet for selling first and how much the plant is paying for non QA animals. I saw 3.70 paid this week for non QA under 30 month bullocks, the farmer taught he was QA'ed. This is the size of the deduction :eek:, he basically was taking 45c less per kilo than the farmer next door with the same QA'ed animal

reilig

bob charles wrote: »

I havnt a clue about how to find it, It could be 3 yrs ago now. basically he was taking on the buyers at their own game and most animal lost between a fiver and tennor and this was where the dealers/buyers had dropped out which showed they were on the money. I would enquire about your outlet for selling first and how much the plant is paying for non QA animals. I saw 3.70 paid this week for non QA under 30 month bullocks, the farmer taught he was QA'ed. This is the size of the deduction :eek:, he basically was taking 45c less per kilo than the farmer next door with the same QA'ed animal

Bob,

If I as a non QA farmer sells an animal to you and you are QA'd, and you put that animal into the factory, will you get the bonus?

Is there a specific time period that you would need to wait in order to get the bonus?

bob charles

reilig wrote: »

Bob,

If I as a non QA farmer sells an animal to you and you are QA'd, and you put that animal into the factory, will you get the bonus?

Is there a specific time period that you would need to wait in order to get the bonus?

the animal has to be in its Last herd for over 70days that is QA approved, also cant have anymore than 3 movements into herds in its lifetime (ie cant reside in more than 4 herds)

Even if you were QA'ed and I bought the animal off you, the animal would still have to remain in my herd for 70 days to qualify even though the animal has being in a QA'ed herd all its life.

Basically its a lovely way to reduce the base price for meat and hammer anyone out off the specs *required*

mauser77

I thought it had changed to 20 days or that from one Qa farm to another Qa farm

bob charles

mauser77 wrote: »

I thought it had changed to 20 days or that from one Qa farm to another Qa farm

Nope, cheap talk was all that was. I wouldnt be surprised to see QA bonus increased again either

aneala

bob charles wrote: »

Nope, cheap talk was all that was. I wouldnt be surprised to see QA bonus increased again either

Until everyone is QA assured and then it will be like Houdini

stand on!!

bob charles wrote: »

Nope, cheap talk was all that was. I wouldnt be surprised to see QA bonus increased again either

Having too pay a membership into QA scheme may be only round the corner too

coolshannagh28

There could be a turn if you get them away to the north ,depending on exchange rates prices are generally ahead of us for R3 s and if you qualify for in spec another 9 cent , the export fee will hit you and the hassle of export at mart but plenty northern men at it when prices suit . A good contact in a northern factory would help

jomoloney

Gilroy wrote: »

So you can do this without a dealers license? Can you explain. I agree with you the last two weeks mart prices have been stable and a keen eye would make money.

"

There is no restriction on moving animals on after they have moved into your herd once the animal is still in test.

If, however, you move more than 100 animals in a 12-month period within 30 days of buying them, then you will be regarded as a cattle dealer under the terms of the relevant national legislation.

Your local DVO will answer any questions you have about the process of being approved as a cattle dealer. "

reply from Dept on another website

you can sell them straight away

jomoloney

bob charles wrote: »

Nope, cheap talk was all that was. I wouldnt be surprised to see QA bonus increased again either

this will be the same as milk

QA is base and non QA will be penalized

MfMan

Gilroy wrote: »

Hi all,

If you buy a 600kg to 700kg animal in the mart or any size, can you sell straight to the factory the next day....

I have a keen eye for a bargain but do you need to hold onto them for a certain period of time???

Do you need a dealers license?

Can i do this without a dealers license and just by using my herd number?

Let me know your views.

Can be done, especially these days* when farmers are nearly full up and all ordinary producers are nearly killed out so less competition, but the bigger the weight, the slightly better the chance you'd have of getting a few bob. Also, you'd want to be well in with a good few of the dealers around the ring so that they'd stop for you and also with your factory so that they'd take them when it suits you rather than them.

* Saw 3 great CHX sold together yesterday, 730Kg @€;1550. They'd have killed a bit in excess of that.

bob charles

MfMan wrote: »

* Saw 3 great CHX sold together yesterday, 730Kg @€;1550. They'd have killed a bit in excess of that.

Will they, considering they would be costing €1600 after slaughter, say they give a pretty good kill out of 400kgs dead and on the beef thread guys are saying they cant get more than €4 base for QA bullocks so you might have to take 3.80. you now have to hope that they grade a U to get them up to cost price. Guy that bought them would have shag all if he slaughtered them straight away.

Farmer

Gilroy wrote: »

Post the link to that article if you have it.

http://www.independent.ie/business/farming/most-farmers-do-not-stand-a-chance-against-the-dealers-in-bidding-rings-26660193.html

MfMan

bob charles wrote: »

Will they, considering they would be costing €1600 after slaughter, say they give a pretty good kill out of 400kgs dead and on the beef thread guys are saying they cant get more than €4 base for QA bullocks so you might have to take 3.80. you now have to hope that they grade a U to get them up to cost price. Guy that bought them would have shag all if he slaughtered them straight away.

These were well done, would have killed out nearer 420kg handy. If you've a QA herd you should get the €4 base rather than 3.80. Overweight might be a bit trickier.

bob charles

MfMan wrote: »

These were well done, would have killed out nearer 420kg handy. If you've a QA herd you should get the €4 base rather than 3.80. Overweight might be a bit trickier.

they must be super cattle to be killing out over 58%, No factory will want you turning up with non QA cattle in a QA herd for a day or two. bet they were going on for further feeding

keep going

bob charles wrote: »

Nope, cheap talk was all that was. I wouldnt be surprised to see QA bonus increased again either

More like quotes for non QA cattle will go down rather than QA go up

Zr105

MfMan wrote: »

These were well done, would have killed out nearer 420kg handy. If you've a QA herd you should get the €4 base rather than 3.80. Overweight might be a bit trickier.

You'll only get the €4 base if you hold on to them for 70 days tho, were as this thread is talking directly about buyin at mart and going the next day which rules that out unfortunately.....

Gilroy

Zr105 wrote: »

You'll only get the €4 base if you hold on to them for 70 days tho, were as this thread is talking directly about buyin at mart and going the next day which rules that out unfortunately.....

True this thread is for buying in MART and selling ASAP. Next question.... if you don't have a dealers license and no premises is it still possible to get one from the DVO???

I would turn over more then 100 cattle a year, but just dont have the facilities. I have land in my herd number. Still i dont plan to hold onto these cattle. Maybe hold them for one day then sell to factory.

bob charles

Gilroy wrote: »

True this thread is for buying in MART and selling ASAP. have is the next question.... if you don't have a dealers license and no premises is it still possible to get one from the DVO???

I would turn over more then 100 cattle a year, but just dont have the facilities. I have land in my herd number. Still i dont plan to hold onto these cattle. Maybe hold them for one day then sell to factory.

you would need a yard and lairage. Say you buy cattle on Thursday and your factory only kills a 4 day week and doesnt kill friday and monday on alternative weeks as most are doing, you will have to keep the animals for 5 days. Allow for a higher than normal mortality rate as its during movement cattle are under most stress and animal often just drop especially fatties. Also allow for animals getting hurt in transport which might mean you finish up holding an animal for a few months. I have on many occasions seen an animal that looks perfect getting skipped with internal disorders most commonly cancer. I had 2 of these in the last 12 months and before sending them away they show no signs of any problems. Losing an animal for 1500, would take the next 30 bought cheap (-€50) which probably mean you have to twist 50 animals to cover their cost. Just go at it with your eyes open and have your costs done down to a T

onyerbikepat

Here's a question you you Bob, seeing you are in the finishing game. What profit would you expect per animal per day? Very general question I know, but just ball park figure. Would you hit 50 cents a day?

Gilroy

bob charles wrote: »

you would need a yard and lairage. Say you buy cattle on Thursday and your factory only kills a 4 day week and doesnt kill friday and monday on alternative weeks as most are doing, you will have to keep the animals for 5 days. Allow for a higher than normal mortality rate as its during movement cattle are under most stress and animal often just drop especially fatties. Also allow for animals getting hurt in transport which might mean you finish up holding an animal for a few months. I have on many occasions seen an animal that looks perfect getting skipped with internal disorders most commonly cancer. I had 2 of these in the last 12 months and before sending them away they show no signs of any problems. Losing an animal for 1500, would take the next 30 bought cheap (-€50) which probably mean you have to twist 50 animals to cover their cost. Just go at it with your eyes open and have your costs done down to a T

I know dealers that have no facilities, no yard, no housing and no crush etc. How did they become dealers. They live in estates and on no farms.

Maybe someone knows different ways of getting a license or they maybe work directly for the factory.

epfff

onyerbikepat wrote: »

Here's a question you you Bob, seeing you are in the finishing game. What profit would you expect per animal per day? Very general question I know, but just ball park figure. Would you hit 50 cents a day?

Rate varies depending on system that needs to be tailored to each farm to work to that farms strengths
70cent here excluding fixed costs vet and mortality
To me they are very different from farm to farm as well
Depending on turnover/ rate of turnover stockmanship and set up
I prefer to do fixed costs on a farm basis 35 a head here
Vet and mortality another 25 On Average allow more for some less for others
Motta

Zr105

Gilroy wrote: »

I know dealers that have no facilities, no yard, no housing and no crush etc. How did they become dealers. They live in estates and on no farms.

Maybe someone knows different ways of getting a license or they maybe work directly for the factory.

Are they dealers or a factory agent?
One buys himself and sends on to factory, the other will just buy whatever the factory needs, load a truck and send them direct to the lairage of the factory

bob charles

onyerbikepat wrote: »

Here's a question you you Bob, seeing you are in the finishing game. What profit would you expect per animal per day? Very general question I know, but just ball park figure. Would you hit 50 cents a day?

50 cent clear would be going well, nuts when you think of the work and stress the game brings

bob charles

Gilroy wrote: »

I know dealers that have no facilities, no yard, no housing and no crush etc. How did they become dealers. They live in estates and on no farms.

Maybe someone knows different ways of getting a license or they maybe work directly for the factory.

Are you sure they arent just tanglers or agents. They never own an animal

Gilroy

bob charles wrote: »

Are you sure they arent just tanglers or agents. They never own an animal

You are probably right...... either tanglers or agents.

adne

bob charles wrote: »

50 cent clear would be going well, nuts when you think of the work and stress the game brings

Piss poor when u think youd need to carry 200 animals to turn 100 euro a day

Gilroy

adne wrote: »

Piss poor when u think youd need to carry 200 animals to turn 100 euro a day

Whoever is buying them is a fool altogether and cant judge cattle. Money can be made if you are sharp enough. Problem is everyone thinks they are sharp.... :P

bob charles

Gilroy wrote: »

Whoever is buying them is a fool altogether and cant judge cattle. Money can be made if you are sharp enough. Problem is everyone thinks they are sharp.... :P

off to school, and let us know how you are going after your first couple of hundred animals:)

moy83

Gilroy wrote: »

Whoever is buying them is a fool altogether and cant judge cattle. Money can be made if you are sharp enough. Problem is everyone thinks they are sharp.... :P

Gilroy , I know lots of sharp lads buying and selling but they aint making a fortune its easy to turn a 100 quid on an animal but at the end of the year when every cost is factored in that 100 quid can be made small very quick . At the price of cattle , one dead or sick one can take the good out of the next few .

easymoney!

Is it hard to actually get a dealers license or hoe do you go about it..

Dont be daft

You'd wanna have some eye for cattle to make money doing that.

If your out 1% in kill out calculation (very easy with culls) or they grade a shade below what you thought your sunk straight away.

onyerbikepat

Gilroy wrote: »

Whoever is buying them is a fool altogether and cant judge cattle. Money can be made if you are sharp enough. Problem is everyone thinks they are sharp.... :P

.... Think about it. There are plenty of guys around the ring that know the value of each animal to within a few euro. Do you really think you can just walk in and snap up all these cheap cattle from under their noses.
By the way, I was getting 50 cents a day from a round figure of 200 cattle in the sheds all year around. So 365days x 200cattle x €0.50 = € 36.5K profit.

simx

Dont be daft wrote: »

You'd wanna have some eye for cattle to make money doing that.

If your out 1% in kill out calculation (very easy with culls) or they grade a shade below what you thought your sunk straight away.

+1

you would want to underestimate killout and anything above what you put down is a bonus, only ever moved 3 animals within a month, got one well enough with them but wouldnt happen too often, i still say make a go of it, nothing tried is nothing gained as the man says

nashmach

bob charles wrote: »

you wouldnt last long buying fat animals up your side of the country with a certain few buckos

That is why I keep away from that charade :eek: