ATH Knockout match: JP Liz V1 vs Teamshadowclan

Bounty Hunter

The first quater-final has been decided for this year (thebostoncrab vs Shagnasti) so we move on the match 3 to find our third quaterfinalist with Liz vs TSC.

don't worry folks until at least one of the other match ups drop from pg1 there wont be another one of these (I realise it could get to overkill with so many first rd matchups to get through). Anywhoo here we go with an ATH regular questions return...

Simplified version of the rules:

I will post a topic and you have to post your response including why you made that choice within a given time limit (before the next match is scheduled to begin), take care while making your responses however as the other contestant can counter your arguement i.e pointing out possible flaws in what youve said.

*you can only counter an arguement two times so make sure your point is worth making. If someone's defense of their arguement isnt good it will count against them.

*You can use the same answer as your opponent if you wish i.e you agree with their choice however its hard to win a debate when your making the same points someone has already made

see the OP of the main thread for further details or if any examples are needed check out previous years competitions.

Question 2: Who is in your opinion the most underutilized wrestler in the WWE and what do you think should be done with them?

after your first post: why would your choice be better than your opponents?

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g'luck and have at it folks!

a poll will be added after both competitors have responded but seing as this is match one and they may not know they are up already don't expect them to post too quickly

JP Liz V1

Quite a few names came to my mind for this question but the one guy I settled on was Tyson Kidd

This guy is great in ring but alas is another fit with the jobber title. He has proven himself already in the tag division teaming with David Hart and Justin Gabriel. For him as a singles competitor he needs a decent feud to help get him over and build him up. I think by pairing Kidd with an older veteran wrestler in a mentor or manager capacity who is over themselves like for example Christian is the way to go. Kidd lacks charisma in his mic skills and who better than Captain Charisma to help him. I'd start by having Kidd compete for the IC or US title and have a reign with one of these titles and also occasionally team with Christian in tag matches and then slowly have Kidd turn heel and resent Christian maybe jealous of Christian and Nattie's friendship or have him blame Christian for a title loss leading a decent lengthy feud between the two with Kidd going over in the end and he could move on to the WHC title scene even picking up a MITB bank win

Lord TSC

I like Tyson Kidd, and I will certainly concede he is being slightly underutilized. However, I do feel that there's not a huge gap between where he is right now and where he could be. Ultimately, I've decided to choose someone who does have a larger gap between current card placement and potential card placement. My choice for "Most underutilized wrestler" is...

Antonio Cesaro

There were a few names I thought I could go with. Dolph Ziggler or Christian, for example, jump to mind. But both have had runs with top titles (albeit not THE top title. which is reserved for the select few), so I wanted to limit myself to someone with top level talent but not had the chance at the top level now. Someone who obviously displays all levels of talent and ability, and has shown glimpses of being able to "hang with the big boys", but hasn't been given anything near a consistent chance to prove themselves.

Any chance Cesaro has been given, he's proven himself and shown he can get a crowd going, but no one can deny he is being wasted at the moment, stuck in a tag team, babysitting Swagger. Although he gets chances to prove himself, for the most part, he's stuck in a jobber tag team who exist right now to make the face teams look good before they challenge The Shield. I think the following comparisons are vital when considering which of Kidd and Cesaro is the most underutilized.

1. Cesaro's style and technique are far more friendly to the entire roster; Cesaro has shown he can throw around the cruiserweights and act as a landing board for smaller guys, AND toss round and spin the big guys, delivering deadly uppercuts to Khali and Big Show. His in-ring style allows him to face a greater diversity of opponents, but more importantly, would allow him to forge great matches against the main event talent, who tend to be bigger individuals. Kidd, on the other hand, is a fantastic cruiserweight and certainly impressive in the ring....but could you see him being able to have a good match with Big Show? Would you be able to be convinced that he could take down Cena? Maybe with perfect, PERFECT, build up, but even then, fans will accept Cesaro as a top guy before they will Kidd.

2. An argument can be made that Kidd hasn't been underutilized over the last year; he's been injured. You can't utilize a guy who can't walk. He's been back two weeks; in those two weeks, he's gotten video segments which focus on the fact that he's pretty much the lead male in WWE's top reality show. Cesaro hasn't even appeared on Total Divas. Kidd had a proper reason for wanting to fight Fandango last week, with a video showing why he wants the fight. He has a feud now that will likely continue not just on Raw but on Total Divas as well, and has character development. Cesaro is a quasi-racist who never gets to talk, never gets to have a proper feud (unless its with a comedy tag team) and who is floundering.

3. When asked to describe how one would book Kidd, Liz aims at the lofty heights of a good IC or Us title run, before moving towards the MITB briefcase. At 33, Kidd doesn't have a huge amount of time, and his build up to the main event could take a lot longer than Cesaro's would.

Cesaro is a year younger than Kidd and would be able to move into a convincing top spot with relative ease; breaking him up from Swagger seems inevitable. Have him go over strong in the match, and then have him earn a title shot at the World Title. The Royal Rumble is typically a PPV they give lower guys a title chance at, and with Cena holding the title, there's already a strong face there for him to compete against. In the build up to the PPV, have Cesaro win a battle royal, focusing on his strength (an attribute they already have acknowledged) by throwing multiple guys out at one, have him throw Khali out, have him swing Kofi round and over the top rope. Fans will buy Cesaro as a top guy based on his strength and size. A strong showing against Cena (not necessarily a win) will put him in a position that after Wrestlemania, he can step up and spend the summer chasing one of the top titles, engaging in matches with Punk, Bryan, Orton, Cena and other main event talents. By this time next year, Cesaro could be one of the top guys in WWE.

in summary then, if we're talking "Most underutilized", I argue that the most underutilized wrestler should be someone who can make the biggest jump from where they are to where they could and should be. Right now, I'd argue that Kidd is just above Cesaro on the card, but doesn't have half the potential to jump as far as him, in terms of size, ability, age or look. I like Kidd, I do; and thats in part thanks to the fact he has a reality TV show which has given him a chance to come back strong. But Cesaro has more potential to go from where he is to the heights that he could be at. And that's why I believe he is far more underutilized than the recently returned Kidd.

JP Liz V1

Cesaro is a great talent and since his WWE debut he has been US champion (a lengthy reign too) and his tag team with Swagger has featured quite predominantly. His swing has helped get him over and even Cena talked him up on a recent house show in Europe. I believe WWE do see Cesaro as a future world champ and is way higher up the card than Kidd and is not underutilized .

Lord TSC

There's a difference between his potential being recognized and actually being utilized.

Drew McIntyre was once identified as the future of the business by Vince McMahon himself, and we know how his story turns out. What Cena says on a house show in a person's home country isn't an indicator as to what will transpire on television; it could simply have been Cena trying to "send the fans home happy".

As for his tag team with Swagger, it has largely been a jobber team. The Real Americans are the guys you beat when you're feuding with The Shield. While he appears on TV, it's not in a way which is utilizing him anywhere near his full ability or potential.

Likewise though, Kidd, too, has been appearing on TV prominently. While off TV injured, he still made appearances on Total Divas. Compare that to, say, Evan Bourne, off TV hurt but not appearing on anything. And when he came back, he got video pakcages before his matches, he's in a proper feud with character development, something that no other mid carder really has on his level. I'd imagine there's many active midcarders who would love to be as "underutilized" as Tyson Kidd has been in the two weeks since he was actually able to be utilized again...

Bounty Hunter

both competitors are allowed 1 more rebuttle each but this one will be over tommorow morning at around 10.30 so I suggest not waiting and getting your votes in if your going to

JP Liz V1

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

There's a difference between his potential being recognized and actually being utilized.

Drew McIntyre was once identified as the future of the business by Vince McMahon himself, and we know how his story turns out. What Cena says on a house show in a person's home country isn't an indicator as to what will transpire on television; it could simply have been Cena trying to "send the fans home happy".

As for his tag team with Swagger, it has largely been a jobber team. The Real Americans are the guys you beat when you're feuding with The Shield. While he appears on TV, it's not in a way which is utilizing him anywhere near his full ability or potential.

Likewise though, Kidd, too, has been appearing on TV prominently. While off TV injured, he still made appearances on Total Divas. Compare that to, say, Evan Bourne, off TV hurt but not appearing on anything. And when he came back, he got video pakcages before his matches, he's in a proper feud with character development, something that no other mid carder really has on his level. I'd imagine there's many active midcarders who would love to be as "underutilized" as Tyson Kidd has been in the two weeks since he was actually able to be utilized again...

With the revitalisation of the tag scene in WWE, The Real Americans have been one of the stand out teams. The reaction to Cesaro's swing is amazing plus he is the star of that group. TRA recently picked up a win over the tag team champs The Rhodes Bros and have been in a feud with new team Los Matadores. TRA have also featured in many ppvs so far this year.

A feud with Fandango which started on Total Divas hardly makes for good character development or a push up the ranks in WWE. While Kidd has been out injured for a while even before this he wasn't featuring on Raw or SD regularly where Cesaro has been.

If you look at social media, how many times as Cole or Lawlor said Cesaro and/or his swing were top trending

So in summation, I do believe WWE see Cesaro higher up their ranks than Kidd and already have plans in place for him in the WHC title scene while Kidd will remain another jobber underused

Bounty Hunter

Congrats TSC and comiserations Liz, Cesaro gives TSC a big swing into the 2nd Quarter-Final where he will be joined by either Machismo or KanKan

JP Liz V1

Well debated Teamshadowclan congrats