Do you think you are owed a job?

Timeless12

My attitude is every day I wake up it's my responsibility to ensure my well being, maybe I'm wrong but I get the impression some people think they are owed a job. I find it hard to understand that sense of entitlement.

Shenshen

Hmm... no, I don't feel I'm owed a job.
I feel I do deserve one (and I've got one anyway, so it's a bit theoretical), because I'm a diligent and hard worker with a reasonably useful brain.

I understand it from my friends who are working in Jobbridge positions, though. They are owed jobs.

kneemos

Timeless12 wrote: »

My attitude is every day I wake up it's my responsibility to ensure my well being, maybe I'm wrong but I get the impression some people think they are owed a job. I find it hard to understand that sense of entitlement.

Sounds like American positive bullcrap.However I don't think people think they are owed a job so much as they expect to be able to get one.

DeanAustin

I could be wrong but I don't know many who feel they are owed a job. I know people who don't want to work who think they are owed their dole and benefits but no-one I know who wants to work thinks that they are entitled.

That said, I know a bunch of people in jobs who think they are owed promotions and pay rises by virtue of being in the job for a long period of time. That attitude does my f**king head in.

Timeless12

kneemos wrote: »

Sounds like American positive bullcrap.However I don't think people think they are owed a job so much as they expect to be able to get one.

Its neither positive nor negative. Its realistic.

danniemcq

I wouldn't say you are owed a job "just because"

Now if you study your arse off for years, pay a fortune in fees, get out into the real world and there is nothing there, then maybe you could feel hard done by. But again I wouldn't say you are owed one.

We as humans need to learn a unique set of skills you could say, that help the world and everyone else or you will be left by the side as the world flies by.

Boombastic

yes, and I deserve 7 figure salary, with bonuses and expenses


FAS had nothing suitable, still waiting for the knock on the door...

The Backwards Man

Putting my employer hat on, I dont think most people think they are owed a job. There are, however, quite a few who think they are owed great wages and conditions without doing anything for them.

kneemos

Timeless12 wrote: »

Its neither positive nor negative. Its realistic.

Well as long as you have the ability to support your "well being"
If you don't have the education or skills to to to get a job in a shrunken jobs market then realistically all you can do is visit the dole office.

irishgrover

I believe that we are owed the 'opportunity' to find a job. Be that through the provision of education, infrastructure, society etc. This is one of the fundamentals of government, in my eyes

Menas

danniemcq wrote: »

Now if you study your arse off for years, pay a fortune in fees, get out into the real world and there is nothing there, then maybe you could feel hard done by. But again I wouldn't say you are owed one.

I think that if you have put that effort in then you would 'expect that your chances of getting a job you are qualified for are good'.
But sadly not always the case.

Depends on the jobs market for your skillset.
Depends on your ability to write an attention grabbing CV.
Depends on your ability to shine in an interview.
Depends on your ability to get on with people.

And that is just to get in the door.

Dyr

I knew bluewolf would thank the OP before I even opened the thread

KyussBishop

Are people owed/entitled-to the means needed to sustain themselves and to survive? (which, when a job is not available, would need to be supplemented with what? not a rhetorical question)

folan

it was promised to me

folan

KyussBishop wrote: »

Are people owed/entitled-to the means needed to sustain themselves and to survive?

is that the same as a job?

KyussBishop

folan wrote: »

is that the same as a job?

Nope - I've expanded my post a bit there. My prediction is, the people supporting the OP's position, are opposed to all of the common safeguards people need to survive, when they can't get a job (just aren't willing to state it straight-out - the social darwinism is usually left implied instead).

ICOcarbiens

Im back in college doing a 4 year degree after getting a degree in multimedia and working in a telecommunications company for 4 years. Once the depression hit i went back to barwork and killed myself behind a counter for 3 more years before coming back to college. This is after growing up in a family run pub and working there since i was able to walk.

Ive worked hard all my life i dont think im "owed" a job,
but i certainly think i deserve a good one.

Dyr

KyussBishop wrote: »

Nope - I've expanded my post a bit there. My prediction is, the people supporting the OP's position, are opposed to all of the common safeguards people need to survive, when they can't get a job (just aren't willing to state it straight-out - the social darwinism is usually left implied instead).

Social darwinism is a misnomer though

Czarcasm

KyussBishop wrote: »

Nope - I've expanded my post a bit there. My prediction is, the people supporting the OP's position, are opposed to all of the common safeguards people need to survive, when they can't get a job (just aren't willing to state it straight-out - the social darwinism is usually left implied instead).

There's a difference between "can't get a job" and "don't want to work in that job". What these people lack is motivation - you take away the safety net, and it has quite a way of focussing people's minds on their priorities.

Timeless12

KyussBishop wrote: »

Nope - I've expanded my post a bit there. My prediction is, the people supporting the OP's position, are opposed to all of the common safeguards people need to survive, when they can't get a job (just aren't willing to state it straight-out - the social darwinism is usually left implied instead).

I think the government should have some safeguards in place, emphasis on some. But my attitude is to always take responsibility for my wellbeing and my family'swell being.

That means forgetting about what I'm "owed" or what I "deserve" and figuring out how to actually get what I need and want for myself.

Dyr

ICOcarbiens wrote: »

This is after growing up in a family run pub and working there since i was able to walk.

So you were born into a family that gave you a job in the family business through no effort of you own?

Pretty handy.

gugleguy

This thread is posted in After-hours and not Work and jobs anyway. Think Who u know has the same weighting as getting a job on Merit, and u are owed a job here in Ireland? Wha??????? Back to ur Meth or whatever

KyussBishop

Czarcasm wrote: »

There's a difference between "can't get a job" and "don't want to work in that job". What these people lack is motivation - you take away the safety net, and it has quite a way of focussing people's minds on their priorities.

Except there aren't enough jobs - so when you remove the safety net, and there are not enough jobs to go around, how do people survive?

Dyr

Timeless12 wrote: »

That means forgetting about what I'm "owed" or what I "deserve" and figuring out how to actually get what I need and want for myself.

That's pretty close to a description of sociopathy

KyussBishop

Bambi wrote: »

Social darwinism is a misnomer though

In what way?

Czarcasm

Timeless12 wrote: »

I think the government should have some safeguards in place, emphasis on some. But my attitude is to always take responsibility for my wellbeing and my family'swell being.

That means forgetting about what I'm "owed" or what I "deserve" and figuring out how to actually get what I need and want for myself.

I would prefer to see no safeguards in place myself, because safeguards discourage people from taking risks, and then they become comfortable stuck in a rut, and when people are stuck in a rut, it can be incredibly hard to motivate them and focus their minds on what needs to be done to rectify their circumstances.

Before anyone calls you selfish for figuring out what you need and want for yourself, I would say to them that nobody can help anybody else if they don't have a solid foundation themselves first and are able to take care of both their own physical well being and their own mental health, before trying to help anyone else.

KyussBishop

Timeless12 wrote: »

I think the government should have some safeguards in place, emphasis on some. But my attitude is to always take responsibility for my wellbeing and my family'swell being.

That means forgetting about what I'm "owed" or what I "deserve" and figuring out how to actually get what I need and want for myself.

Absolutely - I think that everything should be done to promote self-sufficiency, and that the safeguards should primarily be, for when people literally don't have the means to do this - such as in the current case, with there simply not being enough jobs.

Dyr

KyussBishop wrote: »

In what way?

Darwin wasn't really into promoting nutter beliefs.

KyussBishop

Bambi wrote: »

Darwin wasn't really into promoting nutter beliefs.

True, the 'survival of the fittest' type stuff wasn't what he really meant (not in its current interpretation), it was what others adopted from his views for ideological reasons; so the name is kind of a misnomer alright, but the common meaning of 'social darwinism' is accurate for what I meant:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Darwinism

Czarcasm

KyussBishop wrote: »

Except there aren't enough jobs - so when you remove the safety net, and there are not enough jobs to go around, how do people survive?

There are ALWAYS jobs to be filled KB, whether people want to do them or not is another matter entirely. That's why I suppose the OP asks the question -

"Do you think you are owed a job?"

Unfortunately, far too many people do.

KyussBishop

Czarcasm wrote: »

There are ALWAYS jobs to be filled KB, whether people want to do them or not is another matter entirely. That's why I suppose the OP asks the question -

"Do you think you are owed a job?"

Unfortunately, far too many people do.

No Czarcasm, there aren't - that's why the unemployment rate is so high.

The economic crisis wasn't just a mass wave of laziness that made a lot of people voluntarily choose unemployment.

Zillah

You redesign the surface of the Earth to make a hunter-gatherer existence impossible - you bet you owe me a job.

I don't go around expecting any other individual to look after me, but society sure as hell owes me a way to feed myself after it hijacked the planet.

KyussBishop

As of 2012, there are 32 unemployed people per job vacancy in Ireland:
http://www.nerinstitute.net/blog/2013/07/15/over-thirty-unemployed-people-for-each-vacancy/

A clearer picture:
http://www.nerinstitute.net/imglibrary/2013/07/201307151307451.jpg

That means there are only enough jobs, to employ 1 out of 32 people; as the article says:

the main cause of unemployment is not a lack of people willing to work, but simply a lack of jobs.

Czarcasm

KyussBishop wrote: »

No Czarcasm, there aren't - that's why the unemployment rate is so high.

The economic crisis wasn't just a mass wave of laziness that made a lot of people voluntarily choose unemployment.

The unemployment rate is so high KB because people who feel they have studied and/or worked in a specific area of employment for however many years are refusing to acknowledge that they now need to seek employment in an alternative area if there are no jobs available in the field in which they would like to work.

It's not so much laziness as it is a lack of motivation, that is enabled by having a safety net in place.

KyussBishop

Czarcasm wrote: »

The unemployment rate is so high KB because people who feel they have studied and/or worked in a specific area of employment for however many years are refusing to acknowledge that they now need to seek employment in an alternative area if there are no jobs available in the field in which they would like to work.

It's not so much laziness as it is a lack of motivation, that is enabled by having a safety net in place.

That is wrong, see my post above, showing 32 unemployed people per job vacancy.

Timeless12

KyussBishop wrote: »

Absolutely - I think that everything should be done to promote self-sufficiency, and that the safeguards should primarily be, for when people literally don't have the means to do this - such as in the current case, with there simply not being enough jobs.

What about creating your own job? Cleaning windows for example is something anyone can do. Create your own job and/or jobs for others.

wexie

I think the truth is probably more of a combination factors : there not being enough jobs, our social wellfare scheme, the overall profile of many of our unemployed (families etc.), skillsgaps between the available jobs and the available unemployed....

I know of 3 students that started college this year, all of which managed to land part time jobs.

Now obviously many people may not have taken these jobs as they likely wouldn't pay to take care of a family.

But....nonetheless there are 3 students (and probably more than just the ones I know) that managed to get part time jobs without too much hassle.

KyussBishop

Timeless12 wrote: »

What about creating your own job? Cleaning windows for example is something anyone can do. Create your own job and/or jobs for others.

Where will you get the money to start a business, when the banks aren't lending, and customers aren't buying enough to support business?

KyussBishop

wexie wrote: »

...
I know of 3 students that started college this year, all of which managed to land part time jobs.
...

This is another significant factor as well: Underemployment, with full-time jobs getting replaced with part time jobs.

Here is actually another article from that previous site, on underemployment:
http://www.nerinstitute.net/blog/2012/11/13/underemployment-in-the-republic-of-ireland/

As can be seen, there is a sharp rise in underemployment, in step with unemployment:
http://www.nerinstitute.net/imglibrary/2012/11/201211131250291.jpg

Boombastic

Timeless12 wrote: »

What about creating your own job? Cleaning windows for example is something anyone can do. Create your own job and/or jobs for others.

Selling balloons in the park is an idea that came up in a previous thread IIRC. I have yet to see an increase in balloon sellers...people just aren't creative enough. I needed a balloon the other day and couldn't find anywhere to purchase one - There's a gaping hole in the market

Czarcasm

KyussBishop wrote: »

As of 2012, there are 32 unemployed people per job vacancy in Ireland:
http://www.nerinstitute.net/blog/2013/07/15/over-thirty-unemployed-people-for-each-vacancy/

A clearer picture:
http://www.nerinstitute.net/imglibrary/2013/07/201307151307451.jpg

That means there are only enough jobs, to employ 1 out of 32 people; as the article says:

It was only a short article anyway KB, but here's what I took away from it -

In 2012 there were 32.1 people available for work for each vacancy. Though there are some shortages for specific skills (Forfás has recently released a report on the issue), the main cause of unemployment is not a lack of people willing to work, but simply a lack of jobs.

In contrast, in Germany there are only 2.2 unemployed persons per vacancy, showing that in Germany unemployment is mainly due to people being genuinely 'between jobs', which is normal in a health economy.

So people need to train in skills that are required by the jobs market. Well that's not rocket science is it? Most people have understood that concept for years. Those that haven't, have found themselves unemployed, and were they to continue feeling the sense of entitlement that "I studied for it, I deserve it, I won't take anything else!", that's when they may find themselves long term unemployed and stuck in a rut with no motivation to change their circumstances.

Now, it's interesting that the article mentions Germany as having the least amount of unemployed workers per vacancy, because Germany are in the news at the moment about the introduction of a minimum wage. Leading German Economists had this to say about any such introduction -

Germany's leading economic institutes warned ahead of a round of coalition talks on Thursday against the introduction of a new minimum wage of 8.50 euros per hour, saying the move could lead to significant job losses in eastern Germany.
The center-left Social Democrats (SPD) have said they will refuse to form a government with Chancellor Angela Merkel's conservatives unless they agree to a nationwide minimum wage.

The issue is expected to be at the center of talks between the parties starting at 1 p.m. on Thursday. Merkel emerged victorious from an election last month, but needs a coalition partner to secure a third term. The collapse of talks with the Greens this week means the SPD is her only alternative.

"A blanket minimum wage that applies to all sectors and all regions would probably have significantly more negative consequences for the labor market than the current sectoral deals," the institutes said in a twice-yearly report commissioned by the German government.

Source: Reuters

KyussBishop

Czarcasm wrote: »

It was only a short article anyway KB, but here's what I took away from it -

Yes, lets take the bit that you didn't highlight:

In 2012 there were 32.1 people available for work for each vacancy. Though there are some shortages for specific skills (Forfás has recently released a report http://www.nerinstitute.net/common/i...s/external.pngon the issue), the main cause of unemployment is not a lack of people willing to work, but simply a lack of jobs.

In contrast, in Germany there are only 2.2 unemployed persons per vacancy, showing that in Germany unemployment is mainly due to people being genuinely 'between jobs', which is normal in a health economy.

So no, even with people retraining, there are not enough jobs to go around.

FTA69

Czarcasm wrote: »

So people need to train in skills that are required by the jobs market. Well that's not rocket science is it? Most people have understood that concept for years. Those that haven't, have found themselves unemployed, and were they to continue feeling the sense of entitlement that "I studied for it, I deserve it, I won't take anything else!", that's when they may find themselves long term unemployed and stuck in a rut with no motivation to change their circumstances.

There are vacancies in a few niche sectors. Even if you filled every single one of those jobs with people from the live register you'd still have a massive amount left over, couple that with the figure of those who have been forced to emigrate and you have a clearer picture of the hopelessness out there for people.

This whole "there's plenty jobs" argument is sh*te to be very blunt about it. The amount of unemployed people far outstrips the vacancies in every sector across the board. Some people would just rather hark back to Victorian attitudes towards the poor rather than accept the fact that the problem is a systemic one.

martingriff

danniemcq wrote: »

I wouldn't say you are owed a job "just because"

Now if you study your arse off for years, pay a fortune in fees, get out into the real world and there is nothing there, then maybe you could feel hard done by. But again I wouldn't say you are owed one.

We as humans need to learn a unique set of skills you could say, that help the world and everyone else or you will be left by the side as the world flies by.

This does not mean you are owed a job it just means you have the means to go for an interview for the job. Unless you are hard working and actually know what you do and experience then you will and should get crap all

kiffer

Um... removing the safety net reduces the risks people are willing to take.
The problem is we don't really have a safety net we have a security blanket.
The current situation punishes risk taking.
No safety net at all would only punish risk taking more.
In sink or swim situations how many people drown?

TerrorFirmer

What really, really pisses me off is people who actually think they're too good for certain jobs. I know of people, including well known posters on this site actually, whose hypocrisy sickens me, who actually trot out the 'I have a degree in x, I'm not working in a shop' line in real life, despite being fairly long term unemployed. Everytime I see them I want to actually slap them across the face so hard. Whinging about being on the dole but yet refuse to get a job that's not in their 'field', despite jobs in said 'field' being extremely hard to come by (and seemingly oblivious to the fact that prospective employers are hardly going to be impressed by a huge several year gap in your employment history). Not talking about family people, by the way, genuinely young, single individuals.

Zillah

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

What really, really pisses me off is people who actually think they're too good for certain jobs. I know of people, including well known posters on this site actually, whose hypocrisy sickens me, who actually trot out the 'I have a degree in x, I'm not working in a shop' line in real life, despite being fairly long term unemployed. Everytime I see them I want to actually slap them across the face so hard. Whinging about being on the dole but yet refuse to get a job that's not in their 'field', despite jobs in said 'field' being extremely hard to come by (and seemingly oblivious to the fact that prospective employers are hardly going to be impressed by a huge several year gap in your employment history). Not talking about family people, by the way, genuinely young, single individuals.

Yeah I hate when people don't want to do miserable jobs, I want to physically assault them.

Boombastic

Zillah wrote: »

Yeah I hate when people don't want to do miserable jobs, I want to physically assault them.

Celtic Tiger Cub??

Zillah

Boombastic wrote: »

Celtic Tiger Cub??

Miserable 70's serf?

Boombastic

Zillah wrote: »

Miserable 70's serf?

Nah, I'm just willing to do an honest days work, for an honest days pay..regardless of if it's in my field or not. If it puts a roof over my head and food on the table for the family, I'll take it!