Something to Consider

Cycling Dumbasses

Had a kitchen fitter (who is not an electrician) today lecturing me on the correct way to connect up a few appliances from advice he got on boards.ie, eventually put him in his place, should people be more cautious in offering advice on electrical problems or query, if one has to ask basic questions like how to wire a socket or change light switch, one can assume they should stay away from the situation and get a qualified registered electrician.

2011

Cycling Dumbasses wrote: »

Had a kitchen fitter (who is not an electrician) today lecturing me on the correct way to connect up a few appliances from advice he got on boards.ie, eventually put him in his place

Good to know that boards.ie were of assistance.

should people be more cautious in offering advice on electrical problems or query, if one has to ask basic questions like how to wire a socket or change light switch, one can assume they should stay away from the situation and get a qualified registered electrician.

It is an interesting point that you raise that does not have a simple answer, but here are a few thing that I think should be considered:

1) People need to realise that a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing! Reading a few posts on the internet should not be deemed as sufficient training for anyone to start working on a 230V distribution board :eek: Our advice has always been, if in doubt employ the services of a registered electrical contractor.

2) As far as the Commission for Energy Regulation (CER) concerned there is a certain amount of electrical work that can safely be carried out by a competent person. This is why they permit someone other than a registered electrical contractor carry out "minor works" as defined on page 11 of this link.

3) Explaining how an electrician would tackle various jobs and the associated jargon enables a non technical person to understand what an electrician is trying to convey to them.

Cycling Dumbasses

I have read a few threads where there was various solutions and suggestions and a lot of right and wrong in them, in my opinion if one is not a qualified electrician one should not be offering half suggested ideas, its all fine and well until something goes wrong.
The ETCI rule book with up to date amendments should be in possession of any person who practices electrical work and this should be there principal research if one is unsure, i cannot stop anyone doing electrical work.
If one who is deemed competent and most of these people are not a registered electrician does a minor electrical job in a house and this in turn causes a fire and is proven isn't this person responsible for this damage and liable for damages, in my opinion any one who is not registered and insured should not be doing any minor works for anyone and the person who hires them are the bigger fools, but like i say that is my opinion, people take care.

Cerco

The questions raised are very valid but extend beyond electrical work. For example, over on the plumbing and heating forum questions are raised about boilers by people who have a little knowledge. The consequences of tinkering there could be as lethal as 220V.
Or on the motoering forum when dealing with brakes etc.
I think the approach taken on this forum is the most sensible where most responses advise of the need for competence before tackling a task

2011

Cycling Dumbasses wrote: »

in my opinion if one is not a qualified electrician one should not be offering half suggested ideas

This is the internet, how should we ascertain who is a qualified electrician?
What about electrical engineers, should they be permitted to make suggestions? For many electrical engineers design work is thier bread butter, so they are employed to suggest ideas!
What about alarm installers & plumbers that are permitted and insured to carry out limited electrical work at present?

The ETCI rule book with up to date amendments should be in possession of any person who practices electrical work and this should be there principal research if one is unsure

1) It is already a requirement that all electrical contractors posses ET101.

2) This book does not answer many of the technical queries that people have nor is it intended to. It is designed to assist with implementing best practice, not for "principal research" for someone that is "unsure". Those that know ET101 inside out do not necessirely have the ability, training or experience to solve many common electrical issues.

If one who is deemed competent and most of these people are not a registered electrician does a minor electrical job in a house and this in turn causes a fire and is proven isn't this person responsible for this damage and liable for damages, in my opinion any one who is not registered and insured should not be doing any minor works for anyone and the person who hires them are the bigger fools, but like i say that is my opinion, people take care.

You are not alone with that view, but in the real world especially during a recession people will carry out minor electrical work just as they are permitted to.

Andrew_Doran

Cycling Dumbasses wrote: »

Had a kitchen fitter (who is not an electrician) today lecturing me on the correct way to connect up a few appliances from advice he got on boards.ie, eventually put him in his place, should people be more cautious in offering advice on electrical problems or query, if one has to ask basic questions like how to wire a socket or change light switch, one can assume they should stay away from the situation and get a qualified registered electrician.

I'm only an observer, but..

It's hard to get the balance right but that does seem to be what happens on here when it looks like someone is out of their depth.
EDIT: I meant people are told they should get a REC.

If you lock this forum down then we'll all be poorer for it, and the numpties will just go and get advice from a UK electrical forum.

cast_iron

Cycling Dumbasses wrote: »

I have read a few threads where there was various solutions and suggestions and a lot of right and wrong in them,

This does happen alright. However, I can't remember a situation on here where someone has suggested something dangerous and not been called up on it and told why. If anything, that's more educational for people!

I think the Mods do good job by allowing discussion and I don't remember a case where a poster has been sent on their way to go do something dangerous with everyone in agreement.

Taking the advice of random strangers on the internet comes with pitfalls. However, I think alot of posters in here have proved their competence in the area over time, and people should be careful whose advice they take.

Cycling Dumbasses

I have no doubt in my mind the mods do a good job, electrical installation is not rocket science. It is mentioned people might not know the practical ways of doing a job, if one don't know how to do a cable run via attic or through floor joices for e.g socket installation, extra light, phone point etc one should not extend or practice their skills beyond wiring a 3 pin plug.

2011

Cycling Dumbasses wrote: »

if one don't know how to do a cable run via attic or through floor joices for e.g socket installation, extra light, phone point etc one should not extend or practice their skills beyond wiring a 3 pin plug.

Believe it or not but I have the ability to do all of the tasks listed above and have done so many times.
However I was not born with that ability, I had to learn.
I learnt thanks to others assisting me.
We all had to learn at some stage.

It is interesting that you mention a phone point, because that is an example that I often give that is well suited to DIYers as there is no real shock risk.

Cycling Dumbasses

2011 wrote: »

Believe it or not but I have the ability to do all of the tasks listed above and have done so many times.
However I was not born with that ability, I had to learn.
I learnt thanks to others assisting me.
We all had to learn at some stage.

It is interesting that you mention a phone point, because that is an example that I often give that is well suited to DIYers as there is no real shock risk.

I am not questioning your ability, of course everyone was not born an electrician and have to learn the skills, that is obvious to be fair about it.
Running tv cables have no real shock risks either along with phone points like you say, we can leave them jobs to the kitchen fitters.
All im saying is there is alot of bad assistance being offered on other threads and i feel the sticky - Excellent Post , Forum Index should need some updating as it contains alot of misinformation that if a keen diyer or competent person referenced off it could make one or two dangerous situations.

2011

Cycling Dumbasses wrote: »

All im saying is there is alot of bad assistance being offered on other threads and i feel the sticky - Excellent Post , Forum Index should need some updating as it contains alot of misinformation that if a keen diyer or competent person referenced off it could make one or two dangerous situations.

I would like to think that incorrect posts that make suggestions that could lead to a dangerous situation has been corrected.
Have you examples of where this has not happened ?

Cycling Dumbasses

2011 wrote: »

I would like to think that incorrect posts that make suggestions that could lead to a dangerous situation has been corrected.
Have you examples of where this has not happened ?

The thread Excellent Post , Forum Index is an example like i mentioned in my previous post.

2011

Cycling Dumbasses wrote: »

The thread Excellent Post , Forum Index is an example like i mentioned in my previous post.

......and within that thread the uncorrected posts that could lead to a dangerous situation are what exactly ?

Cycling Dumbasses

2011 wrote: »

......and within that thread the uncorrected posts that could lead to a dangerous situation are what exactly ?

Firstly in the illustration consumer unit, fuseboard:
Is 6mm T + E sufficient for say a new installation of a Mira Elite ST ( 10.8KW ) ?
Say for example wouldnt the kitchen fitters friend who got a job to do the electrical work on a shower with rating of above create a nice hazard, the 6mm would stick the pressure for a while but would eventually break down at the weakest connection and that connection would be at the pull cord switch no doubt because a lot of people do very bad termination and we all know what happens with a bad connection, saying that if he were to follow the drawing he wouldn't put any isolation because its not shown and this is the point im trying to get across about people who don't have a clue what they are doing and they see or get advice and they follow through on it.
That is suppose to be a forum index, forum for disaster.

2011

Cycling Dumbasses wrote: »

Firstly in the illustration consumer unit, fuseboard:
Is 6mm T + E sufficient for say a new installation of a Mira Elite ST ( 10.8KW ) ?
Say for example wouldnt the kitchen fitters friend who got a job to do the electrical work on a shower with rating of above create a nice hazard, the 6mm would stick the pressure for a while but would eventually break down at the weakest connection and that connection would be at the pull cord switch no doubt because a lot of people do very bad termination and we all know what happens with a bad connection, saying that if he were to follow the drawing he wouldn't put any isolation because its not shown and this is the point im trying to get across about people who don't have a clue what they are doing and they see or get advice and they follow through on it.
That is suppose to be a forum index, forum for disaster.

Despite the fact that it is clear that you are trolling I will answer anyway:
A 32A RCBO will provide sufficient protection to a 6sq. T+E regardless of the load.
The drawing you refer to clearly shows a 32A RCBO connected to the cable.

Perhaps you can explain why you think that this cable is not properly protected?

Cycling Dumbasses

2011 wrote: »

......and within that thread the uncorrected posts that could lead to a dangerous situation are what exactly ?

Secondly one cannot assume a 32 amp MCB is sufficient to protect a cooker circuit, like in my case the other day it was a single oven with a 2.1kw rating, a lot of good a 32 MCB would do there. What unsure people see unsure people do.

Cycling Dumbasses

2011 wrote: »

Despite the fact that it is clear that you are trolling I will answer anyway:
A 32A RCBO will provide sufficient protection to a 6sq. T+E regardless of the load.

Perhaps you can explain why you think that this cable is not properly protected?

I am not trolling and dont be getting so personal, in your opinion is a 6sq cable sufficent to supply a 10.8kw shower, please answer the question and stop making accusations.

cast_iron

Cycling Dumbasses wrote: »

Firstly in the illustration consumer unit, fuseboard:
Is 6mm T + E sufficient for say a new installation of a Mira Elite ST ( 10.8KW ) ?

For a start, that was posted 5 years ago, when 10.8kW showers were not really common. You won't find anyone here recommending that today. So that's probably a little unfair.

Secondly, the shower circuit is adaquately protected. If someone was to install a 10.8kW shower, they should be reading the instructions that came with it - not a 5 year old diagram on boards.

As for the hob, what extra danger is there with a 32A MCB that there isn't with a 16A one?

2011

Cycling Dumbasses wrote: »

Secondly one cannot assume a 32 amp MCB is sufficient to protect a cooker circuit, like in my case the other day it was a single oven with a 2.1kw rating, a lot of good a 32 MCB would do there. What unsure people see unsure people do.

The drawing shows an arrangement that is very typical of what is installed all over ireland in compliance with ET101. The drawing has not been designed to suit your particular requirements. There is nothing in the post to suggest that. It dose however show how devices such as MCBs, RCDs and neutral bars are connected.

Cycling Dumbasses

cast_iron wrote: »

For a start, that was posted 5 years ago, when 10.8kW showers were not really common. You won't find anyone here recommending that today. So that's probably a little unfair.

Secondly, the shower circuit is adaquately protected. If someone was to install a 10.8kW shower, they should be reading the instructions that came with it - not a 5 year old diagram on boards.

As for the hob, what extra danger is there with a 32A MCB that there isn't with a 16A one?

Where have i mentioned that the illustration of the shower circuit is not adequately protected, i was referencing it to a person installing a 10.8KW shower and using 6sq as in the drawing, please read my previous posts.
Fair enough if this happened the RCBO would trip out on overload but one can presume the kitchen fitters friend would put in a 40amp RCBO because that's what an electrical whole sellers would end up selling him/her and then the fun starts.

2011

Cycling Dumbasses wrote: »

I am not trolling and dont be getting so personal, in your opinion is a 6sq cable sufficent to supply a 10.8kw shower, please answer the question and stop making accusations.

In general, no. But I see nothing to suggest that the shower is 10.8kW.
So perhaps you answer my question:

Why do you think that this 6 sq. cable is not adequately protected by a 32A RCBO ?

Cycling Dumbasses

2011 wrote: »

In general, no. But I see nothing to suggest that the shower is 10.8kW.
So perhaps you answer my question:

Why do you think that this 6 sq. cable is not adequately protected by a 32A RCBO ?

Where have i mentioned that the illustration of the shower circuit is not adequately protected? the other poster attacked me too over this, to answer your question of course the 6sq is adequately protected by a 32A RCBO, but that was not the point i am making, the point i am making is for some one to reference the drawing and buy 6sq to do a shower installation of a 10.8 mira, im not trying to stir anyone up the wrong way.

2011

Cycling Dumbasses wrote: »

Where have i mentioned that the illustration of the shower circuit is not adequately protected, i was referencing it to a person installing a 10.8KW shower and using 6sq as in the drawing, please read my previous posts.

Your reply to my question "......and within that thread the uncorrected posts that could lead to a dangerous situation are what exactly ?" Was this. I am struggling to see the dangerous situation from incorrect posts.

Cycling Dumbasses

2011 wrote: »

Your reply to my question "......and within that thread the uncorrected posts that could lead to a dangerous situation are what exactly ?" Was this. I am struggling to see the dangerous situation from incorrect posts.

Yes is 6sq sufficient to supply a 10.8 Mira Shower?

cast_iron

Cycling Dumbasses wrote: »

Where have i mentioned that the illustration of the shower circuit is not adequately protected,

It's mentioned in the same place that it is mentioned in that diagram that that shower circuit is suitable for a 10.8kW shower. ie. it's not.

Fair enough if this happened the RCBO would trip out on overload

Actually, there's a fair chance it wouldn't - not immediately anyway.

but one can presume the kitchen fitters friend would put in a 40amp RCBO because that's what an electrical whole sellers would end up selling him/her and then the fun starts.

Sadly, there's little anyone here can do to stop the fitters friend doing that. That would be illegal to do today, it probably wasn't back when that was posted. What is not illegal, is to talk discuss these things and post typical diagrams.

And again I ask where the excessive danger is in the 32A cooker circuit over a 16A one?

Your overall point has merit to be fair, but that diagram was not a "how to" guide to wiring a consumer unit. Nor was drawn when the showers you speak of were all that common.

Cycling Dumbasses

cast_iron wrote: »

It's mentioned in the same place that it is mentioned in that diagram that that shower circuit is suitable for a 10.8kW shower. ie. it's not.

Actually, there's a fair chance it wouldn't - not immediately anyway.

Sadly, there's little anyone here can do to stop the fitters friend doing that. That would be illegal to do today, it probably wasn't back when that was posted. What is not illegal, is to talk discuss these things and post typical diagrams.

And again I ask where the excessive danger is in the 32A cooker circuit over a 16A one?

Your overall point has merit to be fair, but that diagram was not a "how to" guide to wiring a consumer unit. Nor was drawn when the showers you speak of were all that common.

In relation to the cooker question is in relation to the drawing i have an issue with it?

2011

Cycling Dumbasses wrote: »

the point i am making is for some one to reference the drawing and buy 6sq to do a shower installation of a 10.8 mira, im not trying to stir anyone up the wrong way.

The point I am making is that if somebody is going to decide that a schematic wiring diagram of a distribution is suitable for very conceivable installation there is very little anyone can do about it. This drawing does however show exactly how many the distribution boards in domestic installations are wired in line with ET101. Take this drawing for what it is, a "typical" arrangement. If it is wrong then thousands of homes across the country have been wired incorrectly. Are you seriously suggesting that?

You have suggested that this drawing is incorrect and that following it could lead to a dangerous situation. To support this argument you have selected a load that is not referenced in the drawing that the supply cable would be unsuitable for. However due to the correct design of this board you acknowledge that the cable is indeed adequately protected, which kind of defeats your entire argument

Cycling Dumbasses

2011 wrote: »

The point I am making is that if somebody is going to decide that a schematic wiring diagram of a distribution is suitable for very conceivable installation there is very little anyone can do about it. This drawing does however show exactly how many the distribution boards in domestic installations are wired in line with ET101. Take this drawing for what it is, a "typical" arrangement. If it is wrong then thousands of homes across the country have been wired incorrectly. Are you seriously suggesting that?

You have suggested that this drawing is incorrect and that following it could lead to a dangerous situation. To support this argument you have selected a load that is not referenced in the drawing that the supply cable would be unsuitable for. However due to the correct design of this board you acknowledge that the cable is indeed adequately protected, which kind of defeats your entire argument

There is no load mentioned in the drawing maybe it is a 10.8KW shower, all it says is ( instantaneous shower)

2011

Cycling Dumbasses wrote: »

There is no load mentioned in the drawing maybe it is a 10.8KW shower, all it says is ( instantaneous shower)

Yes, but as you acknowledged the cable is adequately protected. So this question still remains unanswered.

2011

Are you under the mistaken impression that there is a distribution board design that is somehow suitable for every conceivable domestic installation?

Do you realise that it is common practice to use typical drawings to illustrate how certain wiring can / should be done ? This technique is used throughout the ETCI wiring regulations (ET101).

Cycling Dumbasses

2011 wrote: »

Yes, but as you acknowledged the cable is adequately protected. So this question still remains unanswered.

To answer the question if one installed a 10.8KW shower and supplied it with a 6sq cable as in the drawing its load potentially could be 45 amps, a 32 amp rcbo wont trip out at 32, it will hold and i have seen it holding before up to 40 briefly, that cable will heat and break down over time more than likely at distribution board or at isolation switch which is a hazard.
Hazards can be dangerous. :mad:

Andrew_Doran

Cycling Dumbasses wrote: »

There is no load mentioned in the drawing maybe it is a 10.8KW shower, all it says is ( instantaneous shower)

For all we know the the DB could be wired with wet string. The diagram wouldn't show that either!

Cycling Dumbasses

Andrew_Doran wrote: »

For all we know the the DB could be wired with wet string. The diagram wouldn't show that either!

Ah hear time to call it a night with that very educated post.

2011

Cycling Dumbasses wrote: »

To answer the question if one installed a 10.8KW shower and supplied it with a 6sq cable as in the drawing its load potentially could be 45 amps, a 32 amp rcbo wont trip out at 32, it will hold and i have seen it holding before up to 40 briefly, that cable will heat and break down over time more than likely at distribution board or at isolation switch which is a hazard.
Hazards can be dangerous. :mad:

You are correct, the RCBO would not trip immediately. This however is not a problem. If it was the cable would not be adequately protected as you agreed it is.

Are you now deciding that the cable is not adequately protected by suggesting that a 6 sq. T &E cable will "break down" if 40 amps were to flow though it? Is that what you think is "dangerous"?

Cycling Dumbasses

2011 wrote: »

You are correct, the RCBO would not trip immediately.

Are you suggesting that a 6 sq. T &E cable will "break down" if 40 amps were to flow though it? Is that what you think is "dangerous"?

On say a long run with one bad connection would do, i have seen it and in fairness the risk of fire is low but its still there, to answer your question yes in my opinion i would think it has potential for danger. im not trying to say i know everything and trying to out smart everyone i started this thread just to make people aware of advice they see or hear. Lock down this thread if you think necessary.

2011

Cycling Dumbasses wrote: »

On say a long run with one bad connection would do, i have seen it and in fairness the risk of fire is low but its still there, to answer your question yes in my opinion i would think it has potential for danger.

Bad connections with high currents can theoretically overheat and potentially cause a fire regardless of the cable or protective device. To be fair there is nothing on the drawing to suggest bad connections.

im not trying to say i know everything and trying to out smart everyone i started this thread just to make people aware of advice they see or hear.

...and in my 1st reply to you I said in point #1:

"1) People need to realise that a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing! Reading a few posts on the internet should not be deemed as sufficient training for anyone to start working on a 230V distribution board Our advice has always been, if in doubt employ the services of a registered electrical contractor. "

Lock down this thread if you think necessary.

Another satisfied customer

Stoner

Cycling dumbass,

Thank you for your contribution. If you see something wrong with a post please chip in and
comment about it on that thread. That way the users can see the comment and take it into consideration.