Honesty not the best policy?

Calibos

Appeared in court this morning for non payment of parking fine.

I was pleading guilty and although I had an excuse for not paying the parking fine (€40 upto €60) during the 56 day payment period I wasn't prepared to discuss this in open court so just said that I simply forgot to pay it.

Judge fined me €120 with 3 months to pay.

Fair enough I suppose especially as I had heard the fine could be up to €300.

My problem with the proceedings was that 3 people were fined for parking and speeding offences at this court sitting. The speeder was doing 68KPH in a 50KPH zone and got a €60 fine. Myself and another chap (Parking Fines) who both plead guilty and explained that we forgot to pay but had attempted to pay a few days late with a receipt to prove it. We were fined €120 and €180 respectively.

About 8 or 9 other people were there for parking fines who said they never received the fixed penalty notice and were made to swear to that under oath and had their cases struck out. In one case the Judge was getting very frustrated with him.

Judge - Did you received the Fixed Penalty Notice?
Defendant - If I did I couldn't find it.
Judge - Did you receive a Fixed Penalty Notice?
Defendant - Like I said Judge, If don't remember seeing it and certainly couldn't find it.
Judge - Oh for Gods sake, Yes or No answer. Did you receive a Fixed Penalty Notice?
Defendant - No Judge.
Judge - It took me asking the question 3 times to get that answer (Rolls eyes). Case Struck out.

Its very strange that so many people had no recollection of receiving a Fixed Penalty notice don't you think. Or that An Post have such a poor record of mislaying Fixed Penalty Notices??

It seems like if I was prepared to lie under oath I would have had my case struck out and not had to pay anything.

Sure I can hold my head up high that my word is my bond and would not lie under oath but it annoys me that once again its the honest people that pay. Currently being harrassed by the sherif for late payment of this quarters VAT receipts. Its a few weeks late. While I know of someone who hasn't paid a cent of Vat to revenue in 9 years, who had a judgement against them when they were found out and who is still trading away without a care in the world.

Also the hypocrisy of some religious people who will swear on their bible and lie to the court on the one hand and then lecture the non religious like me on our morals!! They want portions of this supposedly sacred iron age book incorporated or kept on the Irish statute books and yet its not sacred when it suits them to lie after swearing on it??!!

Disgusted.....

How Naive was I :rolleyes:

The One Who Knocks

I concur.

Calibos

Calibos wrote: »

I was pleading guilty and although I had an excuse for not paying the parking fine (€40 upto €60) during the 56 day payment period I wasn't prepared to discuss this in open court so just said that I simply forgot to pay it.
...

Sure I can hold my head up high that my word is my bond and would not lie under oath but it annoys me that once again its the honest people that pay.

You weren't honest though

Sunnyisland

But do you feel better about yourself OP ? For being so honest.

Cuddlesworth

They have such a poor record? They have no record, hence the problem.

The Backwards Man

Honesty is always the best policy. If other people want to lie their way through life, whether they get away with it or not, fcuk them, let them carry on. The truth is a lot lighter and easier to carry.

Seachmall

Lying was the smart move, you gave yourself the fine.

Tough titties.

humbert

Do these penalty notices not come by registered post??

Calibos

bluewolf wrote: »

You weren't honest though

Are you referring to the part where I had an excuse for forgetting to pay the fine but chose not to use it and said I simply forgot to pay. I didn't lie, I merely ommited to tell the judge why I forgot to pay. If you want to know, I forgot because I was bedridden for several months with Anxiety, panic attacks and depression for which I am now on medication, but did not want to risk that being discussed in open court for obvious reasons.

realies wrote: »

But do you feel better about yourself OP ? For being so honest.

I do feel better. I can hold my head up high.

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Honesty is always the best policy. If other people want to lie their way through life, whether they get away with it or not, fcuk them, let them carry on. The truth is a lot lighter and easier to carry.

Your last sentence especially resonates with me.

Seachmall wrote: »

Lying was the smart move, you gave yourself the fine.

Tough titties.

I didn't have a problem paying the fine. I got caught. Accepting personal responsibility and the punishment, making no excuses etc. Hence not contesting it and pleading guilty and not taking up anymore of the courts valuable time than was necessary. I'm not complaining about the fine. In fact, I was pleasantly surprised it was 'Only' €120 because I heard it could be up to €300.

Simply disgusted, that most people seem to have no problem lying under oath and the Judge has no problem believing them.

It saddens me that most AH responses will likely be similar to yours. ie. "More Fool You!!" or words to that effect.

Maximus Alexander

Calibos wrote: »

Its very strange that so many people had no recollection of receiving a Fixed Penalty notice don't you think. Or that An Post have such a poor record of mislaying Fixed Penalty Notices??

It is very strange. A few years ago I received a court summons for non-payment of a littering fine, but I had never received a fixed penalty notice, or any other notification prior to the summons.

I found it very strange at the time, and even more strange to see now that it appears to be so widespread.

catallus

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Honesty is always the best policy. If other people want to lie their way through life, whether they get away with it or not, fcuk them, let them carry on. The truth is a lot lighter and easier to carry.

Well, this is patent nonsense. Every single person in a courtroom is usually lying through their teeth. It's the basis of our legal system.

Seachmall

Calibos wrote: »

Simply disgusted, that most people seem to have no problem lying under oath and the Judge has no problem believing them.

What does it matter if its "under oath"? It's just a way of scaring honesty out of the superstitious.

And the judge has no power to tell them they're lying. I'm sure he knows they're full of BS.

It saddens me that most AH responses will likely be similar to yours. ie. "More Fool You!!" or words to that effect.

Why?

Mint Aero

Tells the truth :rolleyes:

AnonoBoy

Here's my recent Freeman adventure in court from last month:

"I am not this AnonoBoy you refer to judge. I am Anono of the family Boy, a legal entity and not bound by any court in this land. I refer you to section one of the AnonoBoy self-entity act of 1992 which states that I am a complete f*cking moron who thinks this sort of mumbo-jumbo somehow absolves me of adult responsibilities that every other person just faces up to. Your honour I bid you good night."

*Throws smoke bomb*

*Runs out doors of court*

*Trips and falls on face due to smoke obscuring vision*

*Has to pay parking fine anyway

131spanner

Honesty is the best policy, but insanity is the best defence.

SamaraCreamed

bluewolf wrote: »

You weren't honest though

What do you mean?

Calibos

Seachmall wrote: »

What does it matter if its "under oath"? It's just a way of scaring honesty out of the superstitious.

And the judge has no power to tell them they're lying. I'm sure he knows they're full of BS.



Why?

It matters because its your word. Does that not mean anything anymore. As a non religious non superstitious person lying under oath doesn't 'scare' me. I just am not capable of assuring a whole courtroom and Judge that I will tell the truth knowing that the very next second I'm going to lie through my teeth.

You don't know why it saddens me to think that most people would respond that I was basically an eejit for telling the truth???

I must be a gob****e so.

How to get out of paying anything for a parking fine folks!!!

Don't pay the Fixed penalty notice and then just lie through your teeth in court and say you never got the notice. Not only will you not have the original fine increased for late payment, you wont even have to pay the original fine at all!! Result!! :rolleyes:

Stheno

humbert wrote: »

Do these penalty notices not come by registered post??

Nope just regular post

Black cat banger

Look pal ..I have little sympathy for you.

First you park illegally....then you get caught and come up with some rubbish about "Forgetting" to pay the fine".

Are you so dumb not to realise that you were dissing the whole system by that excuse ?

You were lucky the fine was not larger in my opinion....

Seachmall

Calibos wrote: »

just am not capable of assuring a whole courtroom and Judge that I will tell the truth knowing that the very next second I'm going to lie through my teeth.

You should try hypnotism or something, consider it an investment for the next time you break the law.

Maximus Alexander

Black cat banger wrote: »

Look pal ..I have little sympathy for you.

First you park illegally....then you get caught and come up with some rubbish about "Forgetting" to pay the fine".

Are you so dumb not to realise that you were dissing the whole system by that excuse ?

You were lucky the fine was not larger in my opinion....

Did you even read his post? He wasn't looking for sympathy. This thread was never about his fine, which he was happy to pay.

Calibos

Black cat banger wrote: »

Look pal ..I have little sympathy for you.

First you park illegally....then you get caught and come up with some rubbish about "Forgetting" to pay the fine".

Are you so dumb not to realise that you were dissing the whole system by that excuse ?

You were lucky the fine was not larger in my opinion....

?????


Rubbish about forgetting to pay the fine?? Do you have reading comprehension issues?
I'm the one dissing 'the system' and not the liars under oath?? WTF?!?!
Are you just being contrary for contraries sake?

Calibos

Seachmall wrote: »

You should try hypnotism or something, consider it an investment for the next time you break the law.

Ah! I see now. You're just talking the piss. Fair enough. Forgot to keep that in mind when posting in AH

Black cat banger

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Did you even read his post? He wasn't looking for sympathy. This thread was never about his fine, which he was happy to pay.

Excellent post my friend..I never implied he was looking for sympathy.

I just said he would get no sympathy form me.

You conveniently make no mention that he parked illegally in the first place.

Then "forgets" to pay the fine...nice one !

He has cost the state and the taxpayer much more than the 300 euro fine and clogs up the court time in the process.

No time for gimps like that !:mad:

Seachmall

Calibos wrote: »

Ah! I see now. You're just talking the piss. Fair enough. Forgot to keep that in mind when posting in AH

I'm not.

You seem to think that paying your fine is some symbolic gesture to demonstrate that you have taken responsibility for your mistake. It's not.

And this whole thread reeks of "look how good a person I am because I didn't lie!" to be honest.

I can see no other point of it. Are you genuinely surprised that if given the option of losing €120 or not most people will opt to "not"?

Calibos

Seachmall wrote: »

I'm not.

You seem to think that paying your fine is some symbolic gesture to demonstrate that you have taken responsibility for your mistake. It's not.

Well what the fcuk is it then? What gesture do you suggest to demonstrate that I have taken responsibility for my mistake??

And this whole thread reeks of "look how good a person I am because I didn't lie!" to be honest.

Well you are misunderstanding the point of the thread then. The point of the thread was that, here was me thinking taking responsibility (by paying whatever fine the judge saw fit without making excuses in court) for your mistake was the 'normal' thing to do. It turns out I'm apparently abnormal and the majority seemingly see no problem in lying under oath in court to get out of paying a fine. These people were respectable looking people not the usual suspects. The point isn't to say, 'look at me, Praise me, I'm so good and honest and the Sun shines out of my arse'. The point is 'Holy Fook, it looks like most people are lying chancers'. Talk about getting the politicians we deserve!!

I can see no other point of it. Are you genuinely surprised that if given the option of losing €120 or not most people will opt to "not"?

Would I be surprised if we were all asked whether we wanted to pay a €120 fine and everyone opted to not paying it including myself.? Of course not.

Am I surprised that so many respectable looking people seemingly had no problem swearing an oath in court and lying straight afterwards to get out of paying the fine? Yes. Yes I am?....and THATS the whole fcuking point of the thread no matter what way certain contrarians want to interpret it.

Give me strength!

Seachmall

Calibos wrote: »

Well what the fcuk is it then? What gesture do you suggest to demonstrate that I have taken responsibility for my mistake??

Not repeating it.

Fines of arbitrary amounts are imposed as a deterrent, not as a penance.

Am I surprised that so many respectable looking people seemingly had no problem swearing an oath in court and lying straight afterwards to get out of paying the fine? Yes. Yes I am?

I guess we have different outlook on society then.

People like their money and don't like authority.

Well, they like authority as long as its not pointing it's finger at them, then it's just a pain in the arse.

kerry4sam

The Backwards Man wrote: »

Honesty is always the best policy. If other people want to lie their way through life, whether they get away with it or not, fcuk them, let them carry on. The truth is a lot lighter and easier to carry.

Honesty is always the best policy. It may not make you a lot of friends, but certainly the right ones in life.

I always sleep well, and have one very clear conscience thankfully. I always speak truthfully but to see and know others lie just to cover their asses just to keep themselves secure in life, is certainly not just! It does happen, from people you would not expect it from. Sickening!

Calibos

Black cat banger wrote: »

Excellent post my friend..I never implied he was looking for sympathy.

I just said he would get no sympathy form me.

I didn't ask you for sympathy mate. I basically asked boardsies opinion on my observation that it seems that most respectable people don't seem to have a problem lying under oath.

You conveniently make no mention that he parked illegally in the first place.

Then "forgets" to pay the fine...nice one !

"Forgets" Did you read the follow up post about the reason for genuinely forgetting. The small matter of Panic Attacks, Anxiety and depression unrelated to the parking illegally or the fixed penalty notice but which developed just before I got the notice and was not resolved till I in conjunction with my Doctor found the right medication and dose. So yeah, a parking fine was the last thing on my mind till it was too late. I attempted to pay the €60 increased penalty about 5 days after the 56 days was up when I remembered. This was rejected and I was told to wait for my court summons in the post.


He has cost the state and the taxpayer much more than the 300 euro fine and clogs up the court time in the process.

You've no time for people with anxiety/depression who had a valid excuse for forgetting to pay but who did not use that excuse in court, accepted their punishment, didn't lie under oath or waste the courts time with bull**** excuses for the very reason that he was mindful of the fact he was taking up the courts valuable time over a trivial matter. I was mindful that the judges time would have been better spent dealing with criminal cases. Mindful that the guard who ticketed me time would have been better spent out on patrol than having to appear in court for my parking fine non payment.

No time for gimps like that !:mad:

God, if you think I'm a gimp for that, what must you think of all the other people that lied their way out of paying any contribution to the costs of the court??

BTW, I'm not expecting you to admit that you didn't read my posts fully. You'll simply dig your heels in further I imagine.....

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

tolosenc

Calibos wrote: »

I was pleading guilty and although I had an excuse for not paying the parking fine (€40 upto €60) during the 56 day payment period I wasn't prepared to discuss this in open court so just said that I simply forgot to pay it.

Not willing to present a truthful excuse to the court, but willing to confess to perjury online.

Srsly?

Calibos

Seachmall wrote: »

Not repeating it.

Fines of arbitrary amounts are imposed as a deterrent, not as a penance.

I guess we have different outlook on society then.

People like their money and don't like authority.

Well, they like authority as long as its not pointing it's finger at them, then it's just a pain in the arse.

Look, I'm cynical about human nature and society at the best of times but it still surprised me that respectable looking and sounding people didn't seem to have a problem lying under oath. Don't worry. I've now lowered my expectations.

Calibos

tolosenc wrote: »

Not willing to present a truthful excuse to the court, but willing to confess to perjury online.

Srsly?

Jaysus, it seems like I am fighting a losing battle against those with reading comprehension deficits.

Srsly?

I forgot to pay the bloody fine....

I didn't want to publicaly state in court the medical reason for forgetting to pay the fine.....

No one knows me on boards and so I don't mind saying it here. There were 10 or 15 people in court who know me. All customers. Some were defendants, some were family of defendants. Some were the barristers and solicitors. Forgive me for not wanting everyone to know I now suffer from anxiety and depression.

How is stating in court that you forgot but omitting the reason you forgot perjury?

How many times do I have to say that I had no problem with the fine. That I was contrite over wasting the courts valuable time on such a trivial matter as non payment of fine. That I didn't bull**** the judge and accepted the fine without making excuses or complaint.

I merely wanted to know what people thought about the fact the so many people seemed to have no problem lying under oath.

Jester252

Your the same as everyone else in the court room. The guys that lied got self satisfaction from beating the court and telling their pals while you are getting self satisfaction from smugness and making this thread.

kupus

catallus wrote: »

Well, this is patent nonsense. Every single person in a courtroom is usually lying through their teeth. It's the basis of our legal system.

Its not lying its really just twisting around words to suit the particular agenda that's being debated.

Lying: No
Morally repugnant: Yes

Lawyers imo are taught to be the ultimate wordsmiths.
Better than a lot of journalists, well indo journalists anyway.

Could you imagine Barry Egan or niamh horan doing a court piece.:rolleyes:

catallus

? Twisting around words to suit a particular agenda: it is lying, plain and simple.

Ultimate wordsmiths? That's funny. Imo lawyers are taught to be manipulative and deceitful. There is nothing laudable about using every word one can utter to keeping criminals on the street. And from what I've seen of them doing their thing (which is admittedly limited), when their second-rate wordsmithery fails they usually resort to hectoring and obfuscating. But, hey, I've been told the money's good.

Calibos

Jester252 wrote: »

Your the same as everyone else in the court room. The guys that lied got self satisfaction from beating the court and telling their pals while you are getting self satisfaction from smugness and making this thread.

Smugness??

Right So. It seems most of afterhours and the country at large seems to conform to the national stereotype of the irish as chancers out to show it to the man. I suppose anyone reporting illegal activity or welfare fraud etc are rats, any kid who answers teachers questions is a teachers pet and a swot, anyone who takes personal responsibility and doesn't lie to get themselves out of trouble or a fine is a fool.

Jaysus, no wonder this country is in the trouble its in. Like I said earlier in the thread, this just proves that we get the politicians we deserve.

Artful_Badger

Liars and assholes tend to get away with stuff simply because nobody is arsed wasting time dealing with them. You'd think a judge in a courtroom would the one occasion someone would be holding them to account for their actions though.

dirtyden

If you are such an honest person why did you end up with a parking fine?

General General

Did you know about the struck out business before you said you 'forgot' to pay?

Untouchable Peasant

I can find a lover, I can find a friend. I can have security until the bitter end.

Jester252

Calibos wrote: »

Smugness??

Right So. It seems most of afterhours and the country at large seems to conform to the national stereotype of the irish as chancers out to show it to the man. I suppose anyone reporting illegal activity or welfare fraud etc are rats, any kid who answers teachers questions is a teachers pet and a swot, anyone who takes personal responsibility and doesn't lie to get themselves out of trouble or a fine is a fool.

Jaysus, no wonder this country is in the trouble its in. Like I said earlier in the thread, this just proves that we get the politicians we deserve.

Another example of looking your nose down on others. What makes you any better than them?

Calibos

General General wrote: »

Did you know about the struck out business before you said you 'forgot' to pay?

Did I know about this being a loophole to get out of paying any fine at all never mind the original fine before attending court? No.

Did I know about it after 8 or 9 people before me all coincidentally had their Fixed Penalty notices disappear in the post before being called myself. Yes.

I know understand from a lot of the fine upstanding citizens in this thread that I was a sap for not sticking it to the man and lying under oath when I had the chance and after I realised everyone else before me was doing it. Furthermore I now realise that I am a smug, boastful full of myself snob who looks down on people who lie under oath and I am in no position to judge them because I received a parking fine, forgot about it, didn't waste the courts time and contest it. Forgetting seems to be the cardinal sin here. Not forgetting to pay and lying that you never received it and not paying a cent apparently is the lesser of the two evils.

Like I said, the purpose of this thread was to express my surprise at todays proceedings in court and am now equally surprised by the reaction of many here in this thread.

Cd_doe

Jester252 wrote: »

Another example of looking your nose down on others. What makes you any better than them?

The fact that he's not a liar.

He went into court, accepted what he done was wrong and was prepared to pay the price for it.

Other people lied and got away with it.

Maybe in this case it worked out better for the liar and not so good for OP.

The only thing is at some stage their lies will catch up with them and they'll be caught out.

You're down a few quid OP but you have your dignity.

SimonQuinlank

How would a struck out fine catch up with the people who allegedly lied?

Surely the only dignity for the OP would have been paying the fine promptly and not taking up court time in the first place.

Certainly isn't much dignity coming on here and trying to claim the moral high ground in a roundabout way, even though he/she admitted to also not telling the truth (''I had an excuse for not paying the parking fine (€40 upto €60) during the 56 day payment period I wasn't prepared to discuss this in open court so just said that I simply forgot to pay it'') in court.

Calibos

I give up :rolleyes:

General General

Calibos wrote: »

Did I know about this being a loophole to get out of paying any fine at all never mind the original fine before attending court? No.

Did I know about it after 8 or 9 people before me all coincidentally had their Fixed Penalty notices disappear in the post before being called myself. Yes.

I know understand from a lot of the fine upstanding citizens in this thread that I was a sap for not sticking it to the man and lying under oath when I had the chance and after I realised everyone else before me was doing it. Furthermore I now realise that I am a smug, boastful full of myself snob who looks down on people who lie under oath and I am in no position to judge them because I received a parking fine, forgot about it, didn't waste the courts time and contest it. Forgetting seems to be the cardinal sin here. Not forgetting to pay and lying that you never received it and not paying a cent apparently is the lesser of the two evils.

Like I said, the purpose of this thread was to express my surprise at todays proceedings in court and am now equally surprised by the reaction of many here in this thread.

Poor Calibos... now I feel bad.

AngryHippie

Would I use the what fine argument to get it struck out - possibly
Would I sleep at night - definitely
Why ?

Beef Tribunal
Moriarty Tribunal
Mahon/Flood Tribunal

If the courts/laws in this country are incapable/unwilling/incompetent enough to conduct these 3 inquiries without locking up half of the fcukers that testified for contempt of court and perjury, then why would I put my hand up in court and take a fine when I could just do the exact same, thumb my nose to the law and move on with my life ?

Jester252

Cd_doe wrote: »

The fact that he's not a liar.

He went into court, accepted what he done was wrong and was prepared to pay the price for it.

Other people lied and got away with it.

Maybe in this case it worked out better for the liar and not so good for OP.

The only thing is at some stage their lies will catch up with them and they'll be caught out.

You're down a few quid OP but you have your dignity.

He told the court he forgot to pay yet gave a different reason here.

A fine is not penance its a deterrent.

Yet the OP has come onto board to a thread where he looks down other because they didn't have to pay their fine and other who have not agree with him. Look at his reply to me.

the hypocrisy of some religious people who will swear on their bible and lie to the court on the one hand and then lecture the non religious like me on our morals!!

You can just hear his head meeting his arse.

Mellor

Calibos wrote: »

Its very strange that so many people had no recollection of receiving a Fixed Penalty notice don't you think. Or that An Post have such a poor record of mislaying Fixed Penalty Notices??

That's not really strange tbh. They probably issue 1000s of fixed penalty notices. Some are bound to go missing. A small percent. You you not agree?
It makes sense that the people, whose notices go missing, end up in court as they were never aware of it.

You mistake is assuming at the majority of people in court whose went missing is a reflection on AnPosts record. Most people will have gotten them, and paid them without issue.

Also the hypocrisy of some religious people who will swear on their bible and lie to the court on the one hand and then lecture the non religious like me on our morals!

Which of the people whose parking fine supposedly went missing lectured you on morals?
I'd have told them to piss off.

Cd_doe wrote:

The fact that he's not a liar.

He went into court, accepted what he done was wrong and was prepared to pay the price for it.

Other people lied and got away with it.

The fact is we don't know that they lied. He is just assuming.
Maybe some did, maybe none did, maybe they all did. We don't know.

pow wow

Your issue should be with the liars OP, not the judge. The court has no proof either way in relation to whether people received the notices by post or not, so the oath is the best in a bad situation. Fair play to you for telling the truth in your own case.