80 per cent of the US population near poverty.

SoulandForm

For some strange reason there are people in Ireland who look towards the USA as some sort of model either economically and/or culturally. These figures are rather shocking but more shocking is how despite them the ideology of capitalism remains so strong and almost unchallenged in the US.

http://politicalblindspot.com/us-poor/

Cookie_Monster

More than 19 million whites fall below the poverty line of $23,021 for a family of four, accounting for more than 41 percent of the nation’s destitute

hardly poverty when compared to the $1-1.50 per day much of the third world consider the poverty line...
does any single person earning below the $23k get considered under the line despite the numbers being based on a family of four?

mcko

Always said it is a third world country with the biggest military in the world. I would hate to live there, no matter how bad things get here you will never starve and will always get a roof over your head.

SoulandForm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

hardly poverty when compared to the $1-1.50 per day much of the third world consider the poverty line...
does any single person earning below the $23k get considered under the line despite the numbers being based on a family of four?

Yes but you also have to take into account the cost of living in the USA and also rather than compare the USA which does indeed have a lot of wealth to some African to say the Czech Republic, southern Korea or even Ireland.

cali_eire

"80 per cent of the US population near poverty" .... ok the US has many many issues and has huge issues with it's poor but this is ludicrous. Even though I am "American" I am far from a flag waver but I like at least to stay in the realm of the factual when I criticizes my former homeland.

Cookie_Monster

SoulandForm wrote: »

Yes but you also have to take into account the cost of living in the USA and also rather than compare the USA which does indeed have a lot of wealth to some African to say the Czech Republic, southern Korea or even Ireland.

yes indeed, butt despite the COL being far higher than a lot of other countries it's still hard to believe 4 out of 5, 240 million people are 'near poverty'

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Jonny7

SoulandForm wrote: »

For some strange reason there are people in Ireland who look towards the USA as some sort of model either economically and/or culturally. These figures are rather shocking but more shocking is how despite them the ideology of capitalism remains so strong and almost unchallenged in the US.

http://politicalblindspot.com/us-poor/

Sensationalist and misleading

Eggy Baby!

The thread title is misleading but this doesn't negate the fact that income inequality in the USA is disgraceful. Its as bad as Mexico and China and worse than Nigeria and Kenya:



It makes the EU look like heaven in comparison. The US, in my opinion, is a million miles short of the economic model we should aspire to.

It's wealth is generated by massive multinational corporations, resource wealth and, simply, because it's huge population. So there are a small number of huge billionaires and millionaires that make it look rich (and skew the average income) when it is not particularly a place of huge individual wealth.

ChicagoJoe

Wouldn't surprise me, anyone ever see TV shows like Ricky Lake or Jerry Springer

Jonny7

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

The thread title is misleading but this doesn't negate the fact that income inequality in the USA is disgraceful. Its as bad as Mexico and China and worse than Nigeria and Kenya:

Well, perhaps not the best examples. In China, 70% of the nations earnings go to the top 1% (which far outstrips even the US) and the % below various poverty markers (1.25, 2) is far higher than the US, even when relative costs of living are taken into account.

Criticism of the US model is all fine and dandy, but going into comparisons with Kenya and Nigeria is a bit overboard - considering the subject of this thread.

It's a bit like saying Norway's economy is rubbish because of [insert individual stat] is worse than some third world country.

Eggy Baby!

I didn't compare the US economy to that of Nigeria or Kenya. I used a diagram to illustrate that their income inequality is worse than these countries.

The US is obviously much wealthier than Nigeria but when you take into account the wealth of the country and consider the horrendous poverty that is endemic throughout it (go to Compton or Detroit and see the magnificent successes of the American Dream), the fact that it's income inequality is so bad hardly surprises.

In China, 70% of the nations earnings go to the top 1% (which far outstrips even the US)

Would you kindly supply a source for this?

Regarding the distribution of wealth in the states, 35 percent of the wealth going to 1% of the population (and this will likely grow because the rich are getting richer at a fast rate) is insane. Do you have any meaningful surveys to contradict the gini coefficient map?

It's a bit like saying Norway's economy is rubbish because of [insert individual stat] is worse than some third world country.

I didn't state that the US economy is crap. Stop putting words into my mouth.

I didn't compare it's economic model to Kenya or Nigeria either.

But I find mcko's statement that the US is a "third world country with the biggest army" to be laughable. The "third world country" aspect, that is.

cali_eire

I love now people generalize about the US without any real understanding. One of the biggest facts that people here miss is that it's not one cohesive animal and social policy and opportunity for the poor varies dramatically. One state is very different from another in terms of social safety nets, heath care and the welfare state. For example California and Mississippi are like comparing the UK and Romania. California with a population of about 40 million has one of the biggest economies in the world in it's own right, has a very progressive tax system and has been on the forefront of social housing initiatives, the environmental movement, children's healthcare while being the economic engine for the US (Silicon Valley, Entertainment Industry and Green Technology). Compare this to a state like Texas or Mississippi where there is little or no state safety nets and you are reliant mostly on the federal government's limited programs and you will start to realize there is quite a disparity between what the citizen of one state will experience compared to another so these "In America" generalizations are very misleading.

Jonny7

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

I didn't compare the US economy to that of Nigeria or Kenya. I used a diagram to illustrate that their income inequality is worse than these countries.

Just messing around there using the Gini or Palma ratio or 20:20 I can demonstrate the same in relation to e.g. Germany/Afghanistan, and Luxembourg/Ethiopia.

The US is obviously much wealthier than Nigeria but when you take into account the wealth of the country and consider the horrendous poverty that is endemic throughout it (go to Compton or Detroit and see the magnificent successes of the American Dream), the fact that it's income inequality is so bad hardly surprises.

There are some pretty dire situations in the US relative to us but not to an African country where 61% of the people live on less than a dollar a day.

Would you kindly supply a source for this?

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10000872396390444233104577593570349566292

Regarding the distribution of wealth in the states, 35 percent of the wealth going to 1% of the population (and this will likely grow because the rich are getting richer at a fast rate) is insane. Do you have any meaningful surveys to contradict the gini coefficient map?

I agree that the US has fairly high inequality but its representative of the type of economy it is. I wouldn't go as far as calling it insane, because inequality in an economic sense is not always detrimental - it depends on so many other factors, e.g. corruption, regulation, accountability and so on.

clairefontaine

I am always beguiled by the measures of poverty as compared to Europe.

For a start US uemployment rates are hard to know, because they stop counting once your unemployment runs out. Irish true unemployment rates are also hard to know, as they dont count One Parent Family recipients or jobsbridge or disability. So how can we really know?

Plus, in Ireland, even in the middle or upper middle class homes I'm always f****** FREEZING because heat is so expensive, whereas in the US it doesn't matter what home I am in, I am never freezing.

Manic Moran

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Hmm. Thank you.

I have to say, I am one of the 80% then.

Victor

clairefontaine wrote: »

For a start US uemployment rates are hard to know, because they stop counting once your unemployment runs out. Irish true unemployment rates are also hard to know, as they dont count One Parent Family recipients or jobsbridge or disability. So how can we really know?

You are confusing different concepts. Unemployment statistics are about people looking for jobs but don't have them. You are confusing this with 'not economiccally active'. However, there are overlaps and some people in recipt of disability payments do work. People on Jobbridge are working.

Eggy Baby!

Plus, in Ireland, even in the middle or upper middle class homes I'm always f****** FREEZING because heat is so expensive, whereas in the US it doesn't matter what home I am in, I am never freezing.

The American Dream is true! What an absolutely insane generalisation of the situation in Ireland.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/...93570349566292

Would you be able to kindly supply a source I can actually access?

Lantus

what is more telling is the distribution of wealth which is now very skewed. A very good short video to watch.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM

jank

Manic Moran wrote: »

Hmm. Thank you.

I have to say, I am one of the 80% then.

So were people like Bill Gates and the late Steve Jobs. I guess we need to raise taxes to help poor ol Gates out!

aidan24326

cali_eire wrote: »

Compare this to a state like Texas or Mississippi where there is little or no state safety nets and you are reliant mostly on the federal government's limited programs and you will start to realize there is quite a disparity between what the citizen of one state will experience compared to another so these "In America" generalizations are very misleading.

This is very true. California with its Silicon Valley, its movie industry and its vineyards is about as far removed from Mississippi as it is from the moon. Say the same about New York and New Mexico. The US is really a big mish-mash of very different states artificially lumped under the umbrella of USA.

Malibu Stacy

cali_eire wrote: »

I love now people generalize about the US without any real understanding. One of the biggest facts that people here miss is that it's not one cohesive animal and social policy and opportunity for the poor varies dramatically. One state is very different from another in terms of social safety nets, heath care and the welfare state. For example California and Mississippi are like comparing the UK and Romania. California with a population of about 40 million has one of the biggest economies in the world in it's own right, has a very progressive tax system and has been on the forefront of social housing initiatives, the environmental movement, children's healthcare while being the economic engine for the US (Silicon Valley, Entertainment Industry and Green Technology). Compare this to a state like Texas or Mississippi where there is little or no state safety nets and you are reliant mostly on the federal government's limited programs and you will start to realize there is quite a disparity between what the citizen of one state will experience compared to another so these "In America" generalizations are very misleading.

I agree that there are multiple Americas, but I think California's status as a progressive leader on a lot of these issues is also misleading. The public education system is funded through property taxes which are tightly controlled due to Prop 13, and this has created distortions in the rates - Warren Buffett famously stated that he paid a higher property tax rate on his house in Omaha than his multi-million dollar house in California. California gets held up as a liberal bastion because of celebrities, San Francisco, and high taxes, but voters aren't actually that liberal, which contributes to the systematic underfunding of both K-12 public schools and the state's universities (although this is finally changing a bit under the current governor). Bay Area liberal elites in particular are not progressive at all when it comes to issues like affordable housing, redevelopment, and educational funding - Seattle outpaces San Francisco in that regard, and Oregon engages in more adventurous policy experimentation than California. Today California succeeds (to the extent it does ) despite, not because of policy measures (although, again, this seems to be shifting under the current administration).

Jonny7

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

Would you be able to kindly supply a source I can actually access?

Wall Street Journal has a paywall, try to google "WSJ China 70% 1% wealth" or thereabouts and you should find a new link

Eggy Baby!

Jonny7 wrote: »

Wall Street Journal has a paywall, try to google "WSJ China 70% 1% wealth" or thereabouts and you should find a new link

Thanks for that Jonny, I found it.

Nevertheless, considering the wealth in the United States, the average American should be a lot wealthier. But they're not because so much wealth is concentrated in the hands of billionaires.

Regarding the gini index, it's not perfect but it'll do. Similar to how many people quote the Corruption Perceptions Index even though it's practically impossible to measure corruption.

The average American is of course wealthier than the average Kenyan or Nigerian, but when we look at the USA subjectively, the gulf in wealth between ridiculous billionaires and the average joe is simply insane. If you put Bill Gates in a room with 100000 people who earn 1 dollar a year, then the average wage goes up to a very healthy 35000 dollars. See what I mean?

clairefontaine

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

Thanks for that Jonny, I found it.

Nevertheless, considering the wealth in the United States, the average American should be a lot wealthier. But they're not because so much wealth is concentrated in the hands of billionaires.

Regarding the gini index, it's not perfect but it'll do. Similar to how many people quote the Corruption Perceptions Index even though it's practically impossible to measure corruption.

The average American is of course wealthier than the average Kenyan or Nigerian, but when we look at the USA subjectively, the gulf in wealth between ridiculous billionaires and the average joe is simply insane. If you put Bill Gates in a room with 100000 people who earn 1 dollar a year, then the average wage goes up to a very healthy 35000 dollars. See what I mean?

I think you have to consider standard of living and what ou get for your dollar too.

When I'm in Ireland, e20 seems to utterly meaningless. The houses are all freezing, the cost of eating out is crazy, its just so damned expensive. And yet I know people on social welfare with iPhones? What is that all about?

In the US everything is much cheaper so a lower income will still get you a higher standard of living, like clothes that you can actually dry in a drier and not all over ads that you can't afford to heat and it takes five as Roget your clothes to an accepting level of dryness, that it somewhat stiff too. Towels are an altogether new level of Olympic insanity when it comes to the marathon of drying. And this seems to be de rigeur for Irish life, rich or poor.

And I was n an architects house in France and he had no heating inbuilt, no central, no forced air, just one rad for a gigantic main room, and nothing upstairs.

I don't think I've EVER seen an American home with no heating. Ever.

alastair

clairefontaine wrote: »

I don't think I've EVER seen an American home with no heating. Ever.

I vote for the French bloke's gaff (which does have heating - unless the rad is there as an ornament) - at least it'll be a long-term proposition. Oil prices are only going one way.

Clothes lines ftw.

Jonny7

clairefontaine wrote: »

I think you have to consider standard of living and what ou get for your dollar too.

When I'm in Ireland, e20 seems to utterly meaningless. The houses are all freezing, the cost of eating out is crazy, its just so damned expensive. And yet I know people on social welfare with iPhones? What is that all about?

In the US everything is much cheaper so a lower income will still get you a higher standard of living, like clothes that you can actually dry in a drier and not all over ads that you can't afford to heat and it takes five as Roget your clothes to an accepting level of dryness, that it somewhat stiff too. Towels are an altogether new level of Olympic insanity when it comes to the marathon of drying. And this seems to be de rigeur for Irish life, rich or poor.

And I was n an architects house in France and he had no heating inbuilt, no central, no forced air, just one rad for a gigantic main room, and nothing upstairs.

I don't think I've EVER seen an American home with no heating. Ever.

Every country has differing costs, from energy prices, to rent, to tax and so on

My counterparts in the US will generally receive higher salaries for the same job (although does vary greatly from state to state) and have much cheaper energy, fuel, electricity and so on. Also consumer goods and cars range from cheaper to literally half the price

On the flip side, they can pay enormous rent, and obviously have high costs such as med insurance

Having lived in a fair few countries it just changes from region to region, swings and roundabouts - but I side with the general Euro model with it's higher tax and consumer/energy costs but offset by safety nets, health care and ****loads of paid holidays

Although given the opportunity the States and Canada are still very attractive and I know maybe a dozen Irish working happily over there

Eggy Baby!

clairefontaine wrote: »

I don't think I've EVER seen an American home with no heating. Ever.

And I assume you have experienced a suitable sample size?

grainnewhale

jank wrote: »

So were people like Bill Gates and the late Steve Jobs. I guess we need to raise taxes to help poor ol Gates out!

No let them live off the taxes they haven't paid.

The Corinthian

SoulandForm wrote: »

For some strange reason there are people in Ireland who look towards the USA as some sort of model either economically and/or culturally.

Nah; very few people in Ireland have looked to the US for inspiration since around 2003. Reading through this thread, we may look to them for insulation, but inspiration, no. That boat sailed, once and for all, ten years ago.

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

The thread title is misleading but this doesn't negate the fact that income inequality in the USA is disgraceful.

Actually the thread title wasn't misleading, it was that the thread topic turned out to have been based upon a misleading article.

Changing that topic now that it's been revealed that it was, for lack of a better word, bullshìt, isn't making this thread sound any less disingenuous, btw.