SDLP Leader - Our flag is the Tricolour

moxin

SDLP conference this weekend and this piece was quite eye opening as the SDLP never promoted themselves that much with nationalistic credentials before.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/british-collusion-with-loyalist-gangs-shocking-sdlp-leader-1.1590006[/url]

He defended the SDLP’s decision to support limiting the flying of the British union flag over Belfast City Hall which triggered disorder from last Christmas. “As Irish nationalists we make no apology for regarding the tricolour as our national flag. We believe that the Irish tricolour, emblems, symbols, and language should be given parity of esteem,” he said.

Dr McDonnell added, “Last December, Belfast City Council arrived at a sensible compromise, to fly the union flag on designated days, a decision that was supported by the SDLP. It is unfortunate that unionists cannot do compromise.”

UTV's version
http://www.u.tv/News/Long-way-to-reconciliation-McDonnell/d2bd2378-3628-4315-83a4-83da619e3ea3

Addressing controversial issues of flags, parades and dealing with the past, he said there is still much work to do.

The south Belfast representative claimed last year's decision at Belfast City Council to fly the Union flag on designated days was a "sensible compromise".

He added that the party "makes no apology for regarding the Tricolour as our national flag" and that it is "unfortunate that Unionists cannot do compromise".

BBC's version(they left out the Tricolour bit, no surprise there!)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-politics-24879977

"Last December, Belfast City Council arrived at a sensible compromise, to fly the union flag on designated days, a decision that was supported by the SDLP.

"It is unfortunate that unionists cannot do compromise."

It ain't on the Belfast Telegraph.

Anyway, is this a new push by the SDLP to show their Irish nationalist credentials in order to take some votes from SF?

Seaneh

I've always understood the SDLP to be an Irish Nationalist party...

moxin

Seaneh wrote: »

I've always understood the SDLP to be an Irish Nationalist party...

Yes they are, they have hardly shown it publicly like in this speech.

Happyman42

Obviously the all clear has been sounded and it's safe to come out to stand up and be counted.

They are attempting to win back long lost ground here. Bit sad tbh.

Sierra Oscar

The speech made by McDonnell showed a real fighting spirit, I think there is a realisation in the SDLP that they have to take the battle to both Sinn Féin and the DUP to win back votes - and to make the party more relevant.

RTÉ News - SDLP says DUP and Sinn Féin are a poor government

The SDLP leader, Dr Alasdair McDonnell has told his party's annual conference today that Sinn Féin and the DUP were parties of poor government, bad politics and no results.

He is seeking to re-establish the SDLP as the main nationalist party in advance of next year's European Elections.

Happyman42

I can't see how the SDLP will win back votes from the nationalist community by suddenly becoming 'more' nationalist. People aren't stupid, they have told the SDLP what they think of them by defecting to SF.
I think we might be into the dying days of the SDLP if McDonnell's initiative fails.

getzls

moxin wrote: »

SDLP conference this weekend and this piece was quite eye opening as the SDLP never promoted themselves that much with nationalistic credentials before.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/british-collusion-with-loyalist-gangs-shocking-sdlp-leader-1.1590006[/url]


UTV's version
http://www.u.tv/News/Long-way-to-reconciliation-McDonnell/d2bd2378-3628-4315-83a4-83da619e3ea3


BBC's version(they left out the Tricolour bit, no surprise there!)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-politics-24879977


It ain't on the Belfast Telegraph.

Anyway, is this a new push by the SDLP to show their Irish nationalist credentials in order to take some votes from SF?

My response To Alasdair McDonnell and the SDLP

which i believe nearly all, if not all Unioists would echo is,

Go **** yourself.:mad:

Happyman42

getzls wrote: »

My response To Alasdair McDonnell and the SDLP

which i believe nearly all, if not all Unioists would echo is,

Go **** yourself.:mad:

Why would nearly, if not all Unionists echo it?

ChicagoJoe

Well I hope people wouldn't mind an American giving an opinion (living in Ireland for 5 years, also dad from Newry, grew up listening to him discussing politics for years with buddy's from Ireland). I'd say that as the Catholic/Nationalist population is now approaching the 50% mark, the SDLP will now start to sound more and more nationalist.

FTA69

The SDLP are dying on their ass. They have an ageing membership and they offer nothing new in terms of politics. The social democratic political space has been well cemented by Sinn Féin and the SDLP are codding themselves if they think they can outgreen them on top of that. They'll be non-existent in 10 years.

alastair

Just what we need - more fleg posturing.

The SDLP just need to sit it out and wait for the inevitable voter disenchantment with the shinners. That and get themselves some more memorable candidates that manage to compete with the legacy of Hume and Mallon. Most of the SDLP vote didn't go to SF - they just stopped voting (or died). If I was in their boots - I'd chase Alliance territory as a strategy, and seek a stronger connection with both Labour parties. Moderate politics will be the new black.

FTA69

alastair wrote: »

Just what we need - more fleg posturing.

The SDLP just need to sit it out and wait for the inevitable voter disenchantment with the shinners. That and get themselves some more memorable candidates that manage to compete with the legacy of Hume and Mallon. Most of the SDLP vote didn't go to SF - they just stopped voting (or died). If I was in their boots - I'd chase Alliance territory as a strategy, and seek a stronger connection with both Labour parties. Moderate politics will be the new black.

Sinn Féin are moderate politics. That's why they've surpassed the SDLP.

alastair

FTA69 wrote: »

Sinn Féin are moderate politics. That's why they've surpassed the SDLP.

Moderate politics - but with the added baggage of their history. Vulnerable to a cross-community alternative without said baggage - and the SDLP are more likely to capture that vote than the Alliance (though admittedly no time soon, and it will require voter disenchantment with the current coalition).

Happyman42

I don't think the nationalist community will forget the baggage the SDLP carry tbh.
They winced in the face of nearly issue facing nationalists in a time of crisis and then spent a goodly time of the aftermath criticising from the ivory tower never having gotten their hands dirty in the first place.
It really is (and no disrespect to the man personally) 'John who'? They have long ago lost their relevance,

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

I don't think the nationalist community will forget the baggage the SDLP carry tbh.
They winced in the face of nearly issue facing nationalists in a time of crisis and then spent a goodly time of the aftermath criticising from the ivory tower never having gotten their hands dirty in the first place.

Strange then that their vote was at it's strongest when these crisis were in effect, and only started a decline when there was rather fewer crises about to wince in the face of.

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

Strange then that their vote was at it's strongest when these crisis were in effect, and only started a decline when there was rather fewer crises about to wince in the face of.

And as usual there is a reason for that.
Nationalists simply cottoned on to the facts. They saw where the politics of the SDLP was going to get them...nowhere.
The SDLP themselves got complacent and comfortable and by the time of the New Ireland forum disaster where completely out of touch with the realities on the ground. Their vote simply withered as a result.

The SDLP's contribution should not be confused with John Hume's personal one. Hume himself did contribute greatly but history still has to reveal how strongly his party supported his initiatives, it's not altogether clear that they where behind him all the way.

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

And as usual there is a reason for that.
Nationalists simply cottoned on to the facts. They saw where the politics of the SDLP was going to get them...nowhere.

That's one opinion. But then they were integral to the GFA - which seemed kind of popular.

Happyman42 wrote: »

The SDLP themselves got complacent and comfortable and by the time of the New Ireland forum disaster where completely out of touch with the realities on the ground. Their vote simply withered as a result.

Actually, their vote increased - peaking in '96 - a good decade later.

Happyman42 wrote: »

The SDLP's contribution should not be confused with John Hume's personal one. Hume himself did contribute greatly but history still has to reveal how strongly his party supported his initiatives, it's not altogether clear that they where behind him all the way.

It would be handy for your premis to remove John Hume from the SDLP. But that would be pretty absurd, now, wouldn't. It's a package deal.

SoulandForm

getzls wrote: »

My response To Alasdair McDonnell and the SDLP

which i believe nearly all, if not all Unioists would echo is,

Go **** yourself.:mad:

This is the thing- outside of a few measly efforts by NI21 and the Alliance Party Unionists dont really do outreach which is a large reason why Northern Ireland had absolutely no legitimacy in the eyes of the vast majority of CNR Community. You would have thought that you could see where the above attitude leads; the massive decline in thought and morals over the last while means when Troubles mark II explodes (and still hoping against hope it wont) it will be far more savage than Troubles mark I.

My response is that Im glad. There are good people in the SDLP and if they could only bring out their Paddy Devlin side as opposed to their Austin Currie one to the fore again it could only be for the good. Unionists have the "what about the IRA" cop out with SF which they dont have with the SDLP.

SoulandForm

Happyman42 wrote: »

The SDLP's contribution should not be confused with John Hume's personal one. Hume himself did contribute greatly but history still has to reveal how strongly his party supported his initiatives, it's not altogether clear that they where behind him all the way.

Did he face any leadership challenges or serious criticism from within his party?

The fact is that everybody outside John Burton and irrational Orange men knew that there was no point in a "Peace Process" that did not include Sinn Fein; the vast majority of SDLP both lived in the six counties and were not that irrationally self righteous.

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

That's one opinion. But then they were integral to the GFA - which seemed kind of popular.

They where involved but they weren't the power brokers, the pivotal party there was SF.
SF convincing Hume that the solution couldn't be an internal NI one was the key to starting the peace process and ending the violence.

Actually, their vote increased - peaking in '96 - a good decade later.

Sorry, I was rushing out and I phrased that wrong, what I intended was, The SDLP got complacent and comfortable and there vote simply withered away.
That happened when they simply sat on their hands after their success in the early nineties.

It would be handy for your premis to remove John Hume from the SDLP. But that would be pretty absurd, now, wouldn't. It's a package deal.

Hume was largely on a solo run in the talks with Adams, it was his own strategy to do that so that the SDLP would not be damaged if he failed. That is well known.

SoulandForm

Happyman42 wrote: »

They where involved but they weren't the power brokers, the pivotal party there was SF.
SF convincing Hume that the solution couldn't be an internal NI one was the key to starting the peace process and ending the violence.

But the GFA is an internal solution! I dont think it can last and Im far from happy with the way things are in Northern Ireland; but what we have is an "internal solution".

I also strongly suspect that it was a combination of Unionist thuggery around Drumcree (yes there had been a lot of Unionist thuggery before but engaging in it at that particular time was something else) and the PIRA ceasefire that brought the decline in votes for the SDLP (people who wouldnt have voted SF before because they disagreed with or were ambigious about the armed campaign felt free to vote for them when as before they wouldnt have).

The problem with the SDLP is that like the Alliance it brought together a lot of people who wouldnt have been dead in the same party under more normal circumstances.

getzls

There will never be " parity of esteem" as regards the Irish flag in Northern Ireland.

Why should there be?

If both countries even join as one will the Union flag be flown in Dublin
as parity of esteem?

No chance.

Give and take, Unionists give.

Well, you know the other bit.

moxin

getzls wrote: »

There will never be " parity of esteem" as regards the Irish flag in Northern Ireland.

Why should there be?

If both countries even join as one will the Union flag be flown in Dublin
as parity of esteem?

No chance.

Give and take, Unionists give.

Well, you know the other bit.

And there we have it, the failure of Unionists to recognise their neighbours wishes..

The Irish flag represents the Irish Nationalist community, if Unionists don't recognise that then they are not recognising the rights of the Nationalist community. By the way the Nationalists have recognised the Union flag as representing the Unionist community, give and take you say.

Happyman42

SoulandForm wrote: »

But the GFA is an internal solution! I dont think it can last and Im far from happy with the way things are in Northern Ireland; but what we have is an "internal solution".

The GFA is an international agreement between the Governments of Ireland, Britain and the parties involved. It eshrines the fact that 'the future is for the whole island to decide, without external impediment'.

The problem with the SDLP is that like the Alliance it brought together a lot of people who wouldnt have been dead in the same party under more normal circumstances.

Absolutely, that was always it's problem and as long as a figure of the stature of Hume was at the helm, all was 'kind of' well. McGrady and Hendron, to name a few, where critical of Hume though and made it clear that it was a Hume/Adams initiative and not a SDLP/Adams one. The party has never been able to recover (and I suggest they won't) since Hume left the stage.
There is also no doubt in my mind that a politically astute Adams saw his chance to become the main nationalist voice and leader and took it. That's just politics, no biggie there.

SoulandForm

alastair wrote: »

Just what we need - more fleg posturing.

The SDLP just need to sit it out and wait for the inevitable voter disenchantment with the shinners. That and get themselves some more memorable candidates that manage to compete with the legacy of Hume and Mallon. Most of the SDLP vote didn't go to SF - they just stopped voting (or died). If I was in their boots - I'd chase Alliance territory as a strategy, and seek a stronger connection with both Labour parties. Moderate politics will be the new black.

Sadly the British Labour Party have gone from advocating a "United Ireland by consent" to supporting the union of the six counties with the UK. So the idea of them forging a stronger connection with them isnt really that realistic. Chasing Alliance territory? What exactly do you mean by Alliance territory? (the Alliance Party is effectively a unionist protest party against the crazy aspects of Political Unionism).

Im afraid your idea that moderate politics will be the new black is just wishful thinking; there is very reason to think the opposite as the DUP and UUP are pushed to the right by the "fleggers" and their friends in Orange Order (remember that the OO is massively over-represented in Stormount and so wields power greatly out of proportion to its numbers).

getzls

moxin wrote: »

The Irish flag represents the Irish Nationalist community,

Which is about what percentage of the N.I. population?

25% say?

SoulandForm

getzls wrote: »

Which is about what percentage of the N.I. population?

25% say?

Oh come on-he means nationalists in the "tribal" sense.

The Union Jack means something very different in Belfast than it means in Finchley.

Dubhlinner

Its still a post conflict tribal scenario. People vote with who they think will win on their "side"

Would be great for the place were it SDLP and NI21 power sharing in the next term but its not gonna happen, people vote for the party they think is gonna stop themmuns gettin their way

moxin

getzls wrote: »

Which is about what percentage of the N.I. population?

25% say?

No, it's SDLP and SF plus their allies combined electoral vote.

Happyman42

moxin wrote: »

No, it's SDLP and SF plus their allies combined electoral vote.

Plus the small matter of an international agreement all the main parties signed up to.

getzls

moxin wrote: »

No, it's SDLP and SF plus their allies combined electoral vote.

Of some will vote to remain within the UK.

Remember the recent survey.:D

grainnewhale

getzls wrote: »

There will never be " parity of esteem" as regards the Irish flag in Northern Ireland.

Why should there be?

If both countries even join as one will the Union flag be flown in Dublin
as parity of esteem?

No chance.

Give and take, Unionists give.

Well, you know the other bit.

You seem confused

grainnewhale

getzls wrote: »

Which is about what percentage of the N.I. population?

25% say?

You seem confused.

moxin

getzls wrote: »

Of some will vote to remain within the UK.

Remember the recent survey.:D

Remember the elections, voters voted for parties(SF& SDLP etc) which embrace the Irish tricolour as well as a United Ireland.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

moxin wrote: »

Remember the elections, voters voted for parties(SF& SDLP etc) which embrace the Irish tricolour as well as a United Ireland.

Votes are what matter in the greater scheme of things here. The total percentage of SF plus the SDLP gives them a clear democratic mandate to agitate for pretty much anything from an Irish Nationalist perspective. They carry over 40% of the electorate (I think) and contain very varying shades of 'green' within them.

I find it hard to believe any poll that's done on anything right now. As long as Britain is handing over billions to help run Northern Ireland and the south is paying diddly squat then polls are fairly pointless in my opinion.
If a Saadi funded Islamic party came on the scene tomorrow with barrels of oil money and promised to abolish income tax and double the dole rate you'd get a certain percentage of people voting for them! :pac:

It'll be the economic reasons why there will be greater unity on this island. For a national corporation tax policy, for the border counties, for streamlining services. That won't necessarily mean a united Ireland in absolute terms but I feel it will creep along these lines for the foreseeable future.

SoulandForm

getzls wrote: »

Of some will vote to remain within the UK.

Remember the recent survey.:D

So basically you are happy with having the tables being turned and the PUL getting it in the kneck? That is what you basically are saying here.

Ending partition is not only just but it is very much your own tribal interest at this stage.

SoulandForm

Northern Ireland is a failed statelet who's "peace" patched together with a mixture of self-denial, hypocrisy and lies. One that should never have existed in the first place, who's very existence is a disease that poisons the mind of even the best people who live there long enough.

alastair

SoulandForm wrote: »

Northern Ireland is a failed statelet who's "peace" patched together with a mixture of self-denial, hypocrisy and lies. One that should never have existed in the first place, who's very existence is a disease that poisons the mind of even the best people who live there long enough.

You sure you're not talking about 'Ireland', full stop?

SoulandForm

alastair wrote: »

You sure you're not talking about 'Ireland', full stop?

There is no danger of the 26 counties exploding in tribal warfare- infact we have seen mass immigration down in the south but no race riots or rise of any National Front type parties. The south is a mess- and Enda Kenny is to my mind an incredibly dangerous man; but in so many ways the mess in Dublin or Galway is just not comparable to the mess in Belfast or Lurgan.

That said Republicans should stop focusing primarily on partition and start focusing on the EU.

alastair

SoulandForm wrote: »

There is no danger of the 26 counties exploding in tribal warfare- infact we have seen mass immigration down in the south but no race riots or rise of any National Front type parties. The south is a mess- and Enda Kenny is to my mind an incredibly dangerous man; but in so many ways the mess in Dublin or Galway is just not comparable to the mess in Belfast or Lurgan.

That said Republicans should stop focusing primarily on partition and start focusing on the EU.

The mess in Belfast or Lurgan is down to the consequences of decades of sectarianism and violence - both of which existed prior to the creation of NI. The reason why the south won't explode in tribal violence is because there isn't two tribes to go to war (having said that - NI isn't going to explode either - there's no appetite for it). The raw deal that Roma or Chinese get in Belfast is down to localism - spawned by the sectarianism that preceded the state. You can see the same dynamic at play in inner city Dublin any day of the week. And the level of immigration in the south is far short of 'mass', and even with that, the sort of nonsense we had this summer in Portmarnock doesn't paint a particularly pretty picture. Pretending that these problems were caused by, and don't extend beyond the border is pretty simplistic stuff.

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

The mess in Belfast or Lurgan is down to the consequences of decades of sectarianism and violence

For which those vested with the 'responsibility' bear a lot of the blame for allowing it to fester and grow, without intervening in time. They where made to accept their responsibilities, that is the lesson.
The 'mess' is being healed but there are still those who are dragging their feet and saying 'No' and 'Never' and deluding themselves that they are in any way progressive or indeed helpful.
The SDLP's cheap attempt to steal some nationalist votes is just another case in point. What they need to do is accept that they represent those 'nationalists' that are comfortable with the status quo as long as the 'nasty' nationalism and 'loyalism' is kept compartmentalised and ghettoised. It would be much better and responsible to realise that that only works for a while and as Irish history teaches us; it has a nasty habit of breaking out of those constraints. To rest on the laurels of the GFA is to be totally irresponsible.

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

For which those vested with the 'responsibility' bear a lot of the blame for allowing it to fester and grow, without intervening in time. They where made to accept their responsibilities, that is the lesson.
The 'mess' is being healed but there are still those who are dragging their feet and saying 'No' and 'Never' and deluding themselves that they are in any way progressive or indeed helpful.
The SDLP's cheap attempt to steal some nationalist votes is just another case in point. What they need to do is accept that they represent those 'nationalists' that are comfortable with the status quo as long as the 'nasty' nationalism and 'loyalism' is kept compartmentalised and ghettoised. It would be much better and responsible to realise that that only works for a while and as Irish history teaches us; it has a nasty habit of breaking out of those constraints. To rest on the laurels of the GFA is to be totally irresponsible.

Good thing that's not their policy then, isn't it? As to 'stealing' nationalist votes - the SDLP have always advocated for a 32 county nation - just without murdering people. That would make them pretty solidly nationalist.

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

- the SDLP have always advocated for a 32 county nation -

But not when it mattered, which is what most 'nationalists' can see and hold against them.
Their cheap tactic is transparent to anyone who had their eyes open for the last 40 years.

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

But not when it mattered, which is what most 'nationalists' can see and hold against them.
Their cheap tactic is transparent to anyone who had their eyes open for the last 40 years.

Or conversely, they did engage in realistic measures to progress their manifesto, particularly when it mattered - unlike others who eventually found themselves engaging in the same measures - and it's those who refuse to acknowledge the merits of their approach who have been blind for the past 40 years.

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

Or conversely, they did engage in realistic measures to progress their manifesto, particularly when it mattered - unlike others who eventually found themselves engaging in the same measures - and it's those who refuse to acknowledge the merits of their approach who have been blind for the past 40 years.

Well, maybe the un'blind' can explain what (you call) 'more fleg posturing' that has suddenly started emanating from the SDLP? Not your opinion of it but why it has suddenly started happening and why they didn't engage in it when every party had to (and did) stick to it's core principles?

alastair

Happyman42 wrote: »

Well, maybe the un'blind' can explain what (you call) 'more fleg posturing' that has suddenly started emanating from the SDLP? Not your opinion of it but why it has suddenly started happening and why they didn't engage in it when every party had to (and did) stick to it's core principles?

Firstly - you really need to get over your aversion to opinions. That's all anyone has to offer here.

The SDLP are in trouble, and looking for any source of leveraging additional votes. It's as simple as that. It doesn't make them any less of a nationalist party, and it doesn't mean that they didn't take difficult decisions over the years (when they carried a clear majority of the nationalist vote). If anyone is stealing anyone's clothes/strategy, it's the shinners (Sunningdale for slow learners anyone?).

SoulandForm

alastair wrote: »

Good thing that's not their policy then, isn't it? As to 'stealing' nationalist votes - the SDLP have always advocated for a 32 county nation - just without murdering people. That would make them pretty solidly nationalist.

While it was their preferred option both at the time of Sunningdale and elsewhere they some of their members made statements that it wasnt something they were overly interested in pushing which is the reason John Turnley left them.

alastair

SoulandForm wrote: »

While it was their preferred option both at the time of Sunningdale and elsewhere they some of their members made statements that it wasnt something they were overly interested in pushing which is the reason John Turnley left them.

You could make exactly the same point about disgruntled SF members - are they (SF) not a nationalist party either, on that basis?

SoulandForm

alastair wrote: »

The mess in Belfast or Lurgan is down to the consequences of decades of sectarianism and violence - both of which existed prior to the creation of NI.

While sectarianism was always a problem and probably always will be to a certain extent a large part of the mess we find today dates back the incredibly hysterical campaign against Home Rule led principly by men who didnt even come from Ulster (Winston Churchill's father for one- Carson was born in Dublin and spent most of his life in London); than you have that maintained by the UUP. The north never had a DeValera; maybe a DeValera was structurely impossible; just imagine the south if the bitterness left over from the civil war was still raging?

SoulandForm

alastair wrote: »

You could make exactly the same point about disgruntled SF members - are they (SF) not a nationalist party either, on that basis?

I think SF messed up the GFA negotiations but that is for another thread.

Certainly SF are still very interested in pushing for a United Ireland. Do honestly think the Provisional movement going back to armed struggle now would further that end? I personally dont.

Happyman42

alastair wrote: »

Firstly - you really need to get over your aversion to opinions. That's all anyone has to offer here.

The SDLP are in trouble, and looking for any source of leveraging additional votes. It's as simple as that. It doesn't make them any less of a nationalist party, and it doesn't mean that they didn't take difficult decisions over the years (when they carried a clear majority of the nationalist vote). If anyone is stealing anyone's clothes/strategy, it's the shinners (Sunningdale for slow learners anyone?).

Wouldn't an honest opinion find that Sunningdale was tabled by slow learners who thought the conflict could be resolved without the involvement of everybody? A role in 'tourism, conservatism and animal health' for the ROI was never going to cut it for real nationalists.
You are, like the SDLP, missing the critical component that insured the GFA would work.
Trying to speak for nationalists in forked tongue over the years is what saw the SDLP vote fall, nothing else. They are speaking in forked tongues again.