Why is ferry-rail link so inefficient?

Qualitymark

I get the ferry to Holyhead and the train to London once in a while, and I'm baffled at how inefficient it is.
When I was a kid and getting the 'boat train', there were rails (in a beautiful lacy greenhouse kind of thing, just recently dismantled and taken away) right down to the port in Dun Laoghaire and you just walked straight across and up the gangplank. And when you got to Holyhead the train was waiting at the port.
Today, you have to take shuttles, and there's often a wait of an hour for the train, and then you have to change at Crewe or Chester and there's another hour or more wait there.
It seems so odd; this journey could take three hours if the people running it got it together, and would be a pleasanter and faster alternative to flying.
Why don't they do it right?

Mint Sauce

Qualitymark wrote: »

I get the ferry to Holyhead and the train to London once in a while, and I'm baffled at how inefficient it is.
When I was a kid and getting the 'boat train', there were rails (in a beautiful lacy greenhouse kind of thing, just recently dismantled and taken away) right down to the port in Dun Laoghaire and you just walked straight across and up the gangplank. And when you got to Holyhead the train was waiting at the port.
Today, you have to take shuttles, and there's often a wait of an hour for the train, and then you have to change at Crewe or Chester and there's another hour or more wait there.
It seems so odd; this journey could take three hours if the people running it got it together, and would be a pleasanter and faster alternative to flying.
Why don't they do it right?

Cant answer for the Irish side of the operation, as it is pretty bad in fairness, both in terms of the infrastructure, and the customer service.

But on the UK side I have went from London to Holyhead without changing, and Holyhead to London with one change, not bad considering the distance you are traveling. The ferry waited on our delayed train at Holyhead on the return journey, and I was on the train within 30-45 minutes of getting off the ferry, also at Holyhead on the outward journey. And dispite all my luggage, a big hold all, laptop, and racing bike. I found both the ferry, and the train on the UK side quite pleasurable.

LXFlyer

Qualitymark wrote: »

I get the ferry to Holyhead and the train to London once in a while, and I'm baffled at how inefficient it is.
When I was a kid and getting the 'boat train', there were rails (in a beautiful lacy greenhouse kind of thing, just recently dismantled and taken away) right down to the port in Dun Laoghaire and you just walked straight across and up the gangplank. And when you got to Holyhead the train was waiting at the port.
Today, you have to take shuttles, and there's often a wait of an hour for the train, and then you have to change at Crewe or Chester and there's another hour or more wait there.
It seems so odd; this journey could take three hours if the people running it got it together, and would be a pleasanter and faster alternative to flying.
Why don't they do it right?

The bottom line is that the demand is not sufficient to justify direct connections at Holyhead for London for every sailing.

The ships now use the outer harbour at Holyhead, with the exception of the HSS which berths adjacent to the railway station. Hence the need to use the shuttle buses at Holyhead.

As far as journey times between Holyhead and London are concerned, there's an element of exaggeration in your post. The direct train from London to Holyhead takes 3 hours 40 minutes - so I think your idea of 3 hours is a tad impossible.

Most connecting train journeys take roughly 4 hours, which means waiting times of 20 minutes at Bangor, Chester or Crewe - there is no scheduled wait of an hour at any of those locations between trains.

seanmacc

The reason its so inefficient is revenue.

Most people coming off the ferry and getting the train are on Sail and Rail tickets.

The most you will pay for a Sail and Rail ticket is 61 euro (Irish Ferries, travelling on the Swift going to London and purchased on the day you are travelling).

On this ticket, the Irish based ones anyway approximatley 25-29euro goes to the ferry operator, the remaining 32euro+ goes to the UK rail companies and Iarannroid Eireann. The UK rail companies don't really give a toss about sail rail passengers as a single ticket from Holyhead to London bought in the station in Holyhead is anything from £65-£125. Sail Rail is low revenue thus there is very little accomodation made for it.

The only time there was additional capacity put on the trains in recent memory to accomodate sail rail passengers was when Leinster were playing in the Heineken Cup final in Cardiff and Twickenham and Arriva put on one extra departure and a couple of extra carriges to cope with the volumes.

Carawaystick

Ryanair
Who wants to spend 9 hours when 2 will do for the same price

end of the road

force the restoration of tracks right to the peer like how it was, straight off the train clime up the plank on to the boat is the right way to do it, eventually people will start looking for alternatives to flying (lets face it its getting harder and harder these days with all the restrictions and depending on the airline the different charges) sadly undoing the destruction of rosslare by CIE and their little buddies in the department of transport isn't going to happen though

Qualitymark

Carawaystick wrote: »

Ryanair
Who wants to spend 9 hours when 2 will do for the same price

I used to travel as often as possible to London to visit a sick family member. But the sheer awfulness of the Ryanair journey - not just Ryanair, but the airport too - made me find another way. I was tired of getting up at the skreek of dawn to drive to the airport to get a cheap plane, and having to go through endless security lines, taking off bits of clothing and having my luggage pored through and being told I couldn't carry some perfectly normal thing.
So I started doing the journey by ferry and rail. It wasn't that much longer, taking into account getting to the airport early and then getting the train to London city centre at the other end. It wasn't even that much dearer, also taking into account parking or bus fees at one end and train fees at the other. And it was a million* times nicer, calmer, more pleasant, friendlier and more human.
* Estimated number

Grandeeod

Air Travel!

Hilly Bill

Qualitymark wrote: »

I get the ferry to Holyhead and the train to London once in a while, and I'm baffled at how inefficient it is.
When I was a kid and getting the 'boat train', there were rails (in a beautiful lacy greenhouse kind of thing, just recently dismantled and taken away) right down to the port in Dun Laoghaire and you just walked straight across and up the gangplank. And when you got to Holyhead the train was waiting at the port.
Today, you have to take shuttles, and there's often a wait of an hour for the train, and then you have to change at Crewe or Chester and there's another hour or more wait there.
It seems so odd; this journey could take three hours if the people running it got it together, and would be a pleasanter and faster alternative to flying.
Why don't they do it right?

What boat do you get when you have to wait an hour for a train in Holyhead ? and i can only see a wait of around 15 minutes between trains in Chester so where do you get the hour wait?

end of the road

Hilly Bill wrote: »

What boat do you get when you have to wait an hour for a train in Holyhead ? and i can only see a wait of around 15 minutes between trains in Chester so where do you get the hour wait?

infact hilly i think the london train arrives in to Chester around the same time as the holyhead train (or maybe the time i traveled the holyhead train was late arriving, or maybe its changed since also)

Qualitymark

Hilly Bill wrote: »

What boat do you get when you have to wait an hour for a train in Holyhead ? and i can only see a wait of around 15 minutes between trains in Chester so where do you get the hour wait?

I'd normally get the Swift - maybe I'm out of date and they've fixed this? My worst wait was an hour at the ferry port and then an hour in Chester or Crewe, forget which.
What's the fastest journey time from Dublin ferry port to London now?

LXFlyer

There can be waits of an hour or more at Holyhead between the times the train arrives and the boat leaves, and v.v.; however that allows for check-in, security and transfer to the boat, and also for late arrivals! However, there are no waits of an hour at connecting railway stations.

The fastest times are now both using the SWIFT:

From Dublin (Monday/Friday):
Depart Dublin Ferryport 08:45 Arrive London Euston 15:38 (6 hours 53 minutes)

This has a 42 minute connection at Holyhead and a 25 minute connection at Bangor.

The afternoon Swift takes 7 hours 12 minutes, with a 60 minute connection at Holyhead and a 10 minute connection at Chester.

From London (Monday/Friday):
Depart London Euston 06:36 Arrive Dublin Ferryport 13:39 (7 hours 3 minutes)

This has a 13 minute connection at Crewe, an 11 minute connection at Chester, and a 74 minute connection at Holyhead.

The afternoon Swift takes 7 hours 5 minutes, with an 11 minute connection at Chester and a 60 minute connection at Holyhead.

Conventional ferries take over 8 hours at their fastest.

Qualitymark

Thanks, ixflyer. 60 minutes' wait at Holyhead! Craziness!

I'm told that you can't buy an open ticket any more too; this used to be a particularly nice thing to do - if you were staying with friends in London (or they with you in Dublin) you could say "what the heck, stay a day longer", and be relaxed about it.

Am I right in thinking that the ferry companies now lay off the fast boats over winter?

LXFlyer

end of the road wrote: »

force the restoration of tracks right to the peer like how it was, straight off the train clime up the plank on to the boat is the right way to do it, eventually people will start looking for alternatives to flying (lets face it its getting harder and harder these days with all the restrictions and depending on the airline the different charges) sadly undoing the destruction of rosslare by CIE and their little buddies in the department of transport isn't going to happen though

Qualitymark wrote: »

I used to travel as often as possible to London to visit a sick family member. But the sheer awfulness of the Ryanair journey - not just Ryanair, but the airport too - made me find another way. I was tired of getting up at the skreek of dawn to drive to the airport to get a cheap plane, and having to go through endless security lines, taking off bits of clothing and having my luggage pored through and being told I couldn't carry some perfectly normal thing.
So I started doing the journey by ferry and rail. It wasn't that much longer, taking into account getting to the airport early and then getting the train to London city centre at the other end. It wasn't even that much dearer, also taking into account parking or bus fees at one end and train fees at the other. And it was a million* times nicer, calmer, more pleasant, friendlier and more human.
* Estimated number

Lets be honest - travelling by air is only as hard as people make out to be.

There's no need to be there at the crack of dawn - there are flights throughout the day. Dawn is exactly the time to avoid as there are far more flights leaving then than at any other time of the day - hence longer queues.

It's perfectly easy to travel by air for a short trip away without any fuss and without incurring extra charges, once you are prepared.

Choose a flight outside of peak times and avoid the queues - after 08:30 is always a good time.

Follow the regulations - don't have any large sized liquids or any sharp items in your bag.

Frankly people make flying out to be far harder than it actually is - like everything in life - a little bit of advance planning goes a long way.

LXFlyer

Qualitymark wrote: »

Thanks, ixflyer. 60 minutes' wait at Holyhead! Craziness!

I'm told that you can't buy an open ticket any more too; this used to be a particularly nice thing to do - if you were staying with friends in London (or they with you in Dublin) you could say "what the heck, stay a day longer", and be relaxed about it.

Am I right in thinking that the ferry companies now lay off the fast boats over winter?

But it's not actually a 60 minute wait as such. It's 60 minutes from the time the ship docks and the train leaves. Some of that time is spent waiting to get off the boat and transferring to the terminal. It also allows for recovery time if the boat happens to be running late.

As explained above, the trains are primarily designed for domestic travel in the UK, which is where the train companies make their money. The services from Holyhead mainly run through to either Cardiff or Birmingham and are designed for the North Wales market, and to fit in with the hourly service patterns. Similarly, the Virgin Trains between London and Chester fit into an hourly service pattern with some extensions to Holyhead.

You are correct with regard to the ticketing - you now must buy tickets for specific sailings in advance. The easiest way around that is to buy your return ticket in London the day before you return.

Irish Ferries SWIFT runs all year round, but obviously can be affected by winter weather, while the Stena HSS from Dun Laoghaire is seasonal and is off until next Spring (except for a limited period around Christmas).

Losty Dublin

Qualitymark wrote: »

I used to travel as often as possible to London to visit a sick family member. But the sheer awfulness of the Ryanair journey - not just Ryanair, but the airport too - made me find another way. I was tired of getting up at the skreek of dawn to drive to the airport to get a cheap plane, and having to go through endless security lines, taking off bits of clothing and having my luggage pored through and being told I couldn't carry some perfectly normal thing.
So I started doing the journey by ferry and rail. It wasn't that much longer, taking into account getting to the airport early and then getting the train to London city centre at the other end. It wasn't even that much dearer, also taking into account parking or bus fees at one end and train fees at the other. And it was a million* times nicer, calmer, more pleasant, friendlier and more human.
* Estimated number

For many journeys from door to door, the boat works out almost as quick, a lot cheaper, less stress and far more comfortable and relaxed. Even something as small as being able to have a cooked meal on a non paper plate, drink draught beer or even hot tea/coffee, read a paper in peace or simply to be able to walk around; that means a lot to some people. I can understand why many people take that option, before allowing for some of the horror stories we hear at airports.

LXFlyer

Just to add - you can plan such journeys using www.nationalrail.co.uk

Enter "Dublin Ferryport" as your departure/arrival point for Irish Ferries sailings and connecting trains, and use "Dublin Port - Stena" for Stena Line.

seanmacc

Qualitymark wrote: »

Thanks, ixflyer. 60 minutes' wait at Holyhead! Craziness!

I'm told that you can't buy an open ticket any more too; this used to be a particularly nice thing to do - if you were staying with friends in London (or they with you in Dublin) you could say "what the heck, stay a day longer", and be relaxed about it.

Am I right in thinking that the ferry companies now lay off the fast boats over winter?

The open tickets are gone I'm afraid the Irish Sail Rail tickets now require you to state the sailing you're returning on. The reason for this is because the Sail Rail demand has exploded over the past couple of years (Ash Cloud and baggage charges on airlines ect) and whereas the tickets were open before the Irish Rail and UK stations and offices selling these tickets hadn't got the infrastructure to stick to their sailing allocations. The result was people being turned away with valid tickets at the ferryport. Every ship has a passenger capacity and as I said before sailrail are low revenue for the ferry companies, they keep a tight hold of the capacity so as they don't lose out to the more lucrative motorists.
Both Irish Ferries and Stena now allow online booking for sailrail and the sailrail tickets are still relatively flexible. The train portion of the ticket is open for one month from the day of issue so you are not fixed in that regard. If you were to stay an extra day the ferry portion can be changed be it for an amendment fee of 10euro (Irish Ferries), calling ahead to change it is possible or even just showing up in the port in Holyhead is possible for the sailing you intend to go on, but be warned that the Swift service during the summer and at bank holiday weekends, half term, special events ect. gets booked out and you may be disappointed if you just showed up at the port.

The Swift is a year round service with the exception of 2 weeks in January where it goes in for maintenance. Although watch this space, rumor has it that Irish Ferries are going to be launching and additional conventional ferry onto the Dublin-Holyhead route in the new year in addition to Ulysess and Swift.
The HSS is seasonal and every year there are whispers that this may be its last summer.

Qualitymark

seanmacc wrote: »

The HSS is seasonal and every year there are whispers that this may be its last summer.

HSS?

Wonder what they'll call the new boat; if they're going with the literary naming they could call it the Conall, after Eibhlín Dubh Ní Chonaill, author of Caoineadh Art Uí Laoghaire.

LXFlyer

The HSS is the fast ferry that Stena operate between Dun Laoghaire and Holyhead.

Lucena

Carawaystick wrote: »

Ryanair
Who wants to spend 9 hours when 2 will do for the same price

There is a lot of waiting around the airports though, especially on the departures end. Especially as you have to be there a certain time before the flight actually leaves. So from the moment you arrive in Dublin Airport to the moment you're sitting in the Red Lion drinking your pint of bitter, you're probably looking at 5 to 6 hours.

relaxed

Lucena wrote: »

There is a lot of waiting around the airports though, especially on the departures end. Especially as you have to be there a certain time before the flight actually leaves. So from the moment you arrive in Dublin Airport to the moment you're sitting in the Red Lion drinking your pint of bitter, you're probably looking at 5 to 6 hours.

Indeed, you need to be there double and triple early to allow for parking delays, shuttle bus from car park, security, getting to the gate etc. etc.

On the other hand if somebody leaves you outside the ferry terminal at the north wall you just walk in and join the queue, I assume outside the door 10 minutes before departure time and you will still get on the boat.

Regular users of Dublin Airport will be more familiar on how long everything takes, know the shortcuts etc. but for people only going a few times a year the ferry might be less stressful and not much longer.

Dun Laoghaire would probably be a better foot passenger route if there were more sailings, as its further from the airport and on the dart line, so handy for anybody in south Dublin and down to Wexford.

LXFlyer

relaxed wrote: »

Indeed, you need to be there double and triple early to allow for parking delays, shuttle bus from car park, security, getting to the gate etc. etc.

On the other hand if somebody leaves you outside the ferry terminal at the north wall you just walk in and join the queue, I assume outside the door 10 minutes before departure time and you will still get on the boat.

Regular users of Dublin Airport will be more familiar on how long everything takes, know the shortcuts etc. but for people only going a few times a year the ferry might be less stressful and not much longer.

Dun Laoghaire would probably be a better foot passenger route if there were more sailings, as its further from the airport and on the dart line, so handy for anybody in south Dublin and down to Wexford.

Not true - last check in times for foot passengers is 30 minutes before departure.

n97 mini

lxflyer wrote: »

Lets be honest - travelling by air is only as hard as people make out to be.

It is a lot more stressful than SailRail.
Unpredictable queues in security mean you really have to be there 2 hours before hand.
If you're parking in a long term car park or dropping back a rental car, you can add another 30 minutes on.
And if you're flying Ryanair you usually have very long walks within the airport itself.

LXFlyer

Lucena wrote: »

There is a lot of waiting around the airports though, especially on the departures end. Especially as you have to be there a certain time before the flight actually leaves. So from the moment you arrive in Dublin Airport to the moment you're sitting in the Red Lion drinking your pint of bitter, you're probably looking at 5 to 6 hours.

That's a bit of an exaggeration too.

I'd suggest that allowing 90 minutes before the flight, you're looking at about 4 hours to 4 hours 15 minutes to get to central London.

Again what option you choose will depend upon where you are coming from, where are you are going to, how much luggage you have, etc.

LXFlyer

n97 mini wrote: »

It is a lot more stressful than SailRail.
Unpredictable queues in security mean you really have to be there 2 hours before hand.
If you're parking in a long term car park or dropping back a rental car, you can add another 30 minutes on.
And if you're flying Ryanair you usually have very long walks within the airport itself.

Again, it's as stressful as people want to make it for themselves. If they are not regular flyers, then some advance planning in terms of time of flight, packing, check-in and the amount of luggage will go a long way.

In terms of how long to be there - I have never arrived at Dublin Airport more than 90 minutes in advance of a flight. That is more than sufficient to get through security.

But, as I said above, I avoid the early morning rush. Once you avoid that, queues become less of an issue.

n97 mini

^ These are all considerations that don't need to be taken into account with SailRail, making it a more hassle free experience.

seanmacc

relaxed wrote: »

On the other hand if somebody leaves you outside the ferry terminal at the north wall you just walk in and join the queue, I assume outside the door 10 minutes before departure time and you will still get on the boat.

Not true. Check In time is 30mins before departure. They generally don't shut the check in in peoples faces and generally keep the the check in open 15 mins before departure sometimes even later. But be warned that due to operational reasons like a slow ship about to come up the river, bad weather ect. the ferry may close early and it is advertised that check in is 30 mins before departure so you don't have a leg to stand on.

Ferrys also have a habit of leaving early due to fuel saving. Leaving 10 minutes early can save thousands on a crossing in fuel.

ArmaniJeanss

lxflyer wrote: »

Not true - last check in times for foot passengers is 30 minutes before departure.

Is that the 'official' rules or the reality of the situation?
What actually is the check-in procedure when you turn up at the ferry port?
(Been about 14 years since I used the ferry so I'm out of touch.)

Edit : good answers in the post above as it happens!

Lucena

lxflyer wrote: »

That's a bit of an exaggeration too.

I'd suggest that allowing 90 minutes before the flight, you're looking at about 4 hours to 4 hours 15 minutes to get to central London.

Again what option you choose will depend upon where you are coming from, where are you are going to, how much luggage you have, etc.

I’ve never actually flown Dublin to London direct, so from your own experience, how long does it actually take from the moment you arrive in the main Dublin Airport building, to the moment when you arrive in central London?

relaxed

lxflyer wrote: »

Not true - last check in times for foot passengers is 30 minutes before departure.

But the reality is a lot different to airlines, I bet if you turn up with 10 minutes to spare at the North Wall you would have a good chance of being allowed on.

The captain may even wait for the train, imagine asking a Ryanair pilot to stall for a few minutes.

Some rail & sail services may have train arrivals scheduled after the latest check-in time. Travellers can rest assured they will still be allowed to board. Should train services be delayed, sailings may wait to accommodate these foot passengers, subject to the captain's discretion.

LXFlyer

Lucena wrote: »

I’ve never actually flown Dublin to London direct, so from your own experience, how long does it actually take from the moment you arrive in the main Dublin Airport building, to the moment when you arrive in central London?

Well it depends upon where you are going to in Central London - it's a big place!!

But say to get to Piccadilly Circus, it would take me between 4 hours and 4 and a quarter hours usually, assuming no checked in baggage, arriving 90 minutes before my flight, and either using the Piccadilly line or Heathrow Connect services.

seanmacc

relaxed wrote: »

But the reality is a lot different to airlines, I bet if you turn up with 10 minutes to spare at the North Wall you would have a good chance of being allowed on.

The captain may even wait for the train, imagine asking a Ryanair pilot to stall for a few minutes.

Some rail & sail services may have train arrivals scheduled after the latest check-in time. Travellers can rest assured they will still be allowed to board. Should train services be delayed, sailings may wait to accommodate these foot passengers, subject to the captain's discretion.

For a lot of passengers they do wait in fairness. Late buses and trains, even a big crash on the M1, Port Tunnel closed, things like that. But it is a daily occurence down in Dublin Port for someone to jump out of a taxi 5mins before the schedueled departure and expect to get on the ferry and kick up a stink when they don't. They usually get further enraged if the ship left early.

LXFlyer

relaxed wrote: »

But the reality is a lot different to airlines, I bet if you turn up with 10 minutes to spare at the North Wall you would have a good chance of being allowed on.

The captain may even wait for the train, imagine asking a Ryanair pilot to stall for a few minutes.

Some rail & sail services may have train arrivals scheduled after the latest check-in time. Travellers can rest assured they will still be allowed to board. Should train services be delayed, sailings may wait to accommodate these foot passengers, subject to the captain's discretion.

I'd be surprised if you arrived at Dublin Port 10 minutes beforehand, if you were allowed on.

The situation in Holyhead is totally different as the ship is depending on the train to deliver virtually all of the foot passengers.

Again, I'd just say that flying is as stressful an experience as people wish to make it for themselves. Some advance planning can make it very, very easy.

Everyone is different, and I appreciate that many people do find it stressful, but most of that from what I've observed (from considerable amounts of travel) has been down to not preparing properly beforehand.

Don't get me wrong, I've used sail/rail on occasion, but the fact that the flight is up to 4 hours faster for me than the ship/train would be tends to win the argument, unless I'm in the mood for a slow trip!

relaxed

lxflyer wrote: »

I'd be surprised if you arrived at Dublin Port 10 minutes beforehand, if you were allowed on.

The situation in Holyhead is totally different as the ship is depending on the train to deliver virtually all of the foot passengers.

Again, I'd just say that flying is as stressful an experience as people wish to make it for themselves. Some advance planning can make it very, very easy.

Everyone is different, and I appreciate that many people do find it stressful, but most of that from what I've observed (from considerable amounts of travel) has been down to not preparing properly beforehand.

Don't get me wrong, I've used sail/rail on occasion, but the fact that the flight is up to 4 hours faster for me than the ship/train would be tends to win the argument, unless I'm in the mood for a slow trip!

Well obviously you would plan to be there around 30 minutes before the boat leaves, on the off chance you get delayed then there is a good chance you can bounce onto the boat 10 minutes before departure.

As regards stress at the airport, a regular business traveller who knows the drill will find it a lot easier than somebody who only travels once in a while.

LXFlyer

relaxed wrote: »

Well obviously you would plan to be there around 30 minutes before the boat leaves, on the off chance you get delayed then there is a good chance you can bounce onto the boat 10 minutes before departure.

As regards stress at the airport, a regular business traveller who knows the drill will find it a lot easier than somebody who only travels once in a while.

I don't think that I've ever planned to arrive at a port or airport at the time that check-in is supposed to close at!

I'd plan to be at the port around 45-60 minutes beforehand to allow for delays.

I don't disagree that a regular traveller (who says that they have to be on business?) will find an airport pretty easy to navigate, but a lot of the delays at an airport could be eliminated if people bothered to do some planning - the primary one being not including any liquids over 100ml in their cabin baggage!!!!

melekalikimaka

I work festivals in uk, and have alot of luggage and stuff that flights wouldnt allow, I've done it countless times, even did stints on the slow norfolk ferry to liverpool when it was still going... sail and rail is ok, holyhead port is hands down the most depressing place under the sun, and the clientele that use the ferry are the dregs of society to put it kindly, usually given the distances i travel, i wnd up on the night crossing... its scary in that port at night. security are away with the fairies

Vic_08

Qualitymark wrote: »

I get the ferry to Holyhead and the train to London once in a while, and I'm baffled at how inefficient it is. When I was a kid and getting the 'boat train', there were rails (in a beautiful lacy greenhouse kind of thing, just recently dismantled and taken away) right down to the port in Dun Laoghaire and you just walked straight across and up the gangplank. And when you got to Holyhead the train was waiting at the port.

And if you take the Dun Laoghaire-Holyhead HSS then it is not that much more of a trek today. The rear exit of DL rail station is directly facing the ferry terminal entrance, about a 50 metre walk and in Holyhaed the HSS linkspan is directly connected to the terminal building which exits on to the rail platform that is used for most trains out of the station.


The old ferry berths in both ports are now long gone.


In DunLaoghaire the Carlisle Pier terminal, which has now been demolished, has been out of regular use since 1996 when the HSS replaced the St. Columba/Stena Hibernia which had been the mainstay of the route since new in 1977.


The rail spur to the pier was severed in the early 1980s as part of the DART electrification work. The lowering of the line through the DunLaoghaire cutting necessary for the increased headroom the overhead catenary required meant that the short pier spur would have been too high. The work required to alter the levels would have been problematic and expensive so the decision was taken to sever the link in favour of the huge benefit the DART project would have.


The subsequent abandoning of the Carlisle Pier terminal (which anyone who can remember using without rose-tinted specs will tell you was a rotten, miserable dump) benefited rail-sea passengers by bringing the ferry and rail terminals close together once again.


At Holyhead the old ferry berth alongside the rail station was also abandoned with the introduction of the HSS whose linkspan was located a little further out on the opposite side where there was more room. The inner harbour was never going to be suitable for the newer larger ferries which are over 4 times the size of the last ships to use the berth. The purpose-built jetty in the outer harbour was built to take these ferries along with an expanded road network including a bridge across the mouth of the inner harbour berth cutting it off for good. This has now been joined by a pedestrian bridge giving better access from the town to the rail/ferry terminal.

Qualitymark wrote: »

Today, you have to take shuttles, and there's often a wait of an hour for the train, and then you have to change at Crewe or Chester and there's another hour or more wait there.

The bus shuttles to all ferries bar the HSS are unavoidable. The ferry berths are too far away drom the terminal/rail station and that is not going to change.


It is true that the rail connections at Holyhead are often poor, there is no denying that both the ferry and rail companies are not particularly interested in providing solid connections. The exact times do vary with timetable changes but it is obvious that minimising wait time to/from ferry services is not high on the list of requirements when changes are being finalised.


Connections at intermediate stations have been changed significantly in recent years by the change in service patterns. Most services from Holyhead now reverse at Chester going to either Cardiff or Birmingham via Wrexham. Previously most of these would have gone to Crewe and onwards to Birmingham via the faster WCML route or cross country towards Derby.


This was done largely for political reasons as the devolved Welsh Government now controls the Arriva Trains Wales franchise and are eager to promote north-south welsh connections even though this does not reflect the main passenger flows.


This has led to Chester being a much bigger connection station than it used to be as the majority of passengers off Holyhead-Cardiff trains leave here. Onward connections towards London are generally good most of the day as there is an hourly Chester-London direct train and if this is missed there is an additional shuttle to Crewe that will connect with the hourly Manchester-Crewe-London service giving a near 1/2 hourly Chester-London frequency.


Direct Holyhead-London trains take around 3h40m (there are 5 a day, 4 of which depart before 9am to cater for the peak demand from North Wales coast stations) they are all fast from Crewe with only one intermediate stop so no scope for speeding up there. The only way of cutting the journey closer to your 3 hour fantasy would be cutting the intermediate stops between Holyhead and Chester which is not going to happen as these generate far more custom than Holyhead alone.

Qualitymark wrote: »

It seems so odd; this journey could take three hours if the people running it got it together, and would be a pleasanter and faster alternative to flying.

Why don't they do it right?

Like it or not the numbers travelling sail-rail is now just a trickle compared to the pre low fares airlines peak and the priorities for both rail and ferry operators has changed. The ferries rely on car and freight traffic for the vast majority of their income so their services are geared towards that, including seemingly negative steps such as moving ferry berths away from rail terminals. This has been done to provide more vehicle lanes and better flowing port roads to aid loading of ferries as well as accommodating the larger cruise ferries in operation today.


For the rail companies too, ensuring that ship-rail connections are as short as possible is not only a non-issue I strongly suspect they in some cases extend them purposely to avoid the knock-on effects of missed connections due to small delays in tight links. The UK rail companies really do not like holding trains, any delays across the network are counted up in minutes and the original party to blame is responsible for the fines associated, just one delayed train in a busy location such as Chester or Crewe can cause a ripple that delays many others and costs big.

end of the road wrote: »

force the restoration of tracks right to the peer like how it was, straight off the train clime up the plank on to the boat is the right way to do it,

Right so, you ring up Stena UK Ports and tell them they have to run a choo-choo down to the outer harbour so a few Paddies don't have to spend 10 minutes on a bus and tell us what their response is...

end of the road wrote: »

eventually people will start looking for alternatives to flying (lets face it its getting harder and harder these days with all the restrictions and depending on the airline the different charges)

It really isn't. If anything air fares are getting more transparent due to better EU regulation, unlike a few years ago a quick rancidair search will give you the actual fare including all unavoidable charges, a few minutes actually reading the rest of the rubbish on their booking pages will discard all of their optional extras that you don't need.


There is no evidence to suggest that there will be any major shift away from air travel in the near future, yes some people (me included) will go for the sea/land alternatives where possible but I do not buy for one second that that is going to spread to more than a tiny minority of travellers.

Vic_08

relaxed wrote: »

Some rail & sail services may have train arrivals scheduled after the latest check-in time. Travellers can rest assured they will still be allowed to board. Should train services be delayed, sailings may wait to accommodate these foot passengers, subject to the captain's discretion.

Please do not post that sort of nonsense. A train arrival SCHEDULED after minimum check-in is NOT a connection excepting in the unlikely circumstance that it is listed in an official timetable as such and passengers arriving on it can not rest assured they will be allowed to board.

Passengers on a train that is scheduled to arrive before check-in closes and is delayed will be accommodated if possible by virtue of the leeway in the check-in times. they will hold departure procedures until the last minute before they have to close up for an on-time departure but will generally not delay an actual departure.

relaxed

Vic_08 wrote: »

Please do not post that sort of nonsense. A train arrival SCHEDULED after minimum check-in is NOT a connection excepting in the unlikely circumstance that it is listed in an official timetable as such and passengers arriving on it can not rest assured they will be allowed to board.

Passengers on a train that is scheduled to arrive before check-in closes and is delayed will be accommodated if possible by virtue of the leeway in the check-in times. they will hold departure procedures until the last minute before they have to close up for an on-time departure but will generally not delay an actual departure.

How is it nonsense, its a direct copy and paste from the Stena website:rolleyes:

L1011

Qualitymark wrote: »

HSS?

Wonder what they'll call the new boat; if they're going with the literary naming they could call it the Conall, after Eibhlín Dubh Ní Chonaill, author of Caoineadh Art Uí Laoghaire.

Nothing, the route will go in that case

end of the road

Vic_08 wrote: »

Right so, you ring up Stena UK Ports and tell them they have to run a choo-choo down to the outer harbour so a few Paddies don't have to spend 10 minutes on a bus and tell us what their response is...

no, the minister for transport should be made to force irish rail/CIE to undo the sabotage of the railway around rosslare europort, thats what i was refering to, the old station was a propver terminus facility unlike the current waste of tax payers money dump that is the current station

CelticRambler

I'm a semi-regular Ryanair passenger ('cos we don't have sail-n-rail to Ireland from France) but when MOL's winter schedule removes that option, I've used S-n-R from Stansted to complete my journey. It's a great value alternative at peak travel times or e.g. Christmas when you're not sure how many kgs of presents you're going to be coming home with!

The last time I did sail-and-rail, however, it was a bit of a shambles. I don't like the Swift - give me a proper ship any day - but the booking page wouldn't let me choose that option. Turned out there was major engineering work planned for the days I was travelling and the system wasn't taking anything other than conventional journeys. Anyway, one very helpful person on here who works behind the scenes managed to "persuade" the system to give me the booking I wanted which was great ...

...until the f*****g train driver didn't show up for work. Then the whole uncoordinated mess that is ex-British Rail show itself for the inefficient customer un-friendly service that it is. Altogether, there were about 100 of us going from London and we could see that there was another train that would still get us to Crewe in time for a connection to Chester - but the company we were booked with was determined to give each and everyone of us a hand-written voucher for a seat on their next train to Crewe which wasn't the one we wanted.

Though none of us had ever met before, we took their hand-written vouchers and then boarded the other company's train anyway. Not that it did us much good. Even though we got the (Virgin) staff to radio ahead and tell Crewe that there were a hundred passengers on the way to pick up the train they'd booked and we'd be very tight for time and could they hold the other train for us, it didn't wait the two minutes (yep, just two). Why? "Because there were passengers who had reservations for the ferry" we were told, without any hint of irony that we were the passengers with the reservations ...

In the end, it was Irish Ferries who showed that they understood the meaning of the word "service" in Customer Service and sorted out fresh reservations for us (on the Swift).

Apart from the fact that I prefer a proper ship, the Ulysses is more reliable than the Swift. If you've planned your journey around the Swift and you end up getting put on the ship, like happened last week, it makes for a very long delay overall; whereas if it's the train that's late and you miss the ferry, you can make up time if you get put on the Swift.

Oh yeah, and we had a kamikaze shuttle driver in Holyhead aswell. Why they need speed humps on the shuttle route I don't know, but this fellow didn't slow down for them till the very last second ... then the eejit got stuck trying to force his way past a colleague coming in the opposite direction.

So it's not always stress-free, but I'll do it again when the need arises.

Carawaystick

There's a lot of blinkered comparisons here, comparing the time of getting a lift to the door of the ferry terminal with parking in long term carpark at airport, or discounting the need to check in ahead of time for the ferry. It's only 30 mins more for a plane
Also in a 40 minute flight, do you need a draught beer or hot meal?

Also there are much more public transport links to Dublin Airport than Dublin port

relaxed

Carawaystick wrote: »

There's a lot of blinkered comparisons here, comparing the time of getting a lift to the door of the ferry terminal with parking in long term carpark at airport, or discounting the need to check in ahead of time for the ferry. It's only 30 mins more for a plane
Also in a 40 minute flight, do you need a draught beer or hot meal?

Also there are much more public transport links to Dublin Airport than Dublin port

Dublin port passenger ferry terminal is closer to an intercity railway station, national bus station, Dart and Luas than Dublin airport.

If I lived in Dublin and had frequent trips to the more accesable parts of the UK I would probably consider boat / rail to London some of the time.

veryangryman

n97 mini wrote: »

It is a lot more stressful than SailRail.
Unpredictable queues in security mean you really have to be there 2 hours before hand.
If you're parking in a long term car park or dropping back a rental car, you can add another 30 minutes on.
And if you're flying Ryanair you usually have very long walks within the airport itself.

Maybe am lucky but since terminal 2 opened I have never endured a queue of more than 5 minutes at security. The walk to ryanair is another ten minutes max.

I am going to sheffield in a few weeks. Using a combination of...

Drive to bus stop(10 mins)
Bus athlone to airport (2 and half hour)
Wait at airport for flight (hour and half)
Flight to Manchester (hour)
Wait for train (hour)
Train to Sheffield(hour)
Taxi to friend house(ten min)

Seven and half hours door to door to suit this particular journey. Probably quicker normally except its a particularly early flight so involves some waiting around.

Equivalent using sail rail much longer and more expensive. I know London was mentioned but still generally the sea travel not worth it. Car with five people maybe

Hilly Bill

Qualitymark wrote: »

I'd normally get the Swift - maybe I'm out of date and they've fixed this? My worst wait was an hour at the ferry port and then an hour in Chester or Crewe, forget which.
What's the fastest journey time from Dublin ferry port to London now?

If you get the 8:45 swift then you might make the 11:27 if all goes well but if not then its the 12.28 so you would get an hour or so wait in Holyhead like you said in that case. The only answer is get the boat that gives you a less waiting time on your train.
Wales is the best country in the world so the longer you stay there the better .

LXFlyer

Hilly Bill wrote: »

If you get the 8:45 swift then you might make the 11:27 if all goes well but if not then its the 12.28 so you would get an hour or so wait in Holyhead like you said in that case. The only answer is get the boat that gives you a less waiting time on your train.
Wales is the best country in the world so the longer you stay there the better .

The 11:27 is the advertised connection so I would suggest that "might" is a tad pessimistic.

Hilly Bill

lxflyer wrote: »

The 11:27 is the advertised connection so I would suggest that "might" is a tad pessimistic.

Show me the advertised connection and have you got that boat and train before ?
Im only going from experience.

LXFlyer

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Show me the advertised connection and have you got that boat and train before ?
Im only going from experience.

Go to www.nationalrail.co.uk

Ben D Bus

There's also the reliability issue.

Flights seem to cope better with adverse weather than sailings.

And I did a trip from my house (West Dublin) to central London (Victoria Stn) in 5 hours last Sunday morning. That included a coffee break in Gatwick.