Dealing with homophobia

ewan whose army

I have been out for a year, and I am just starting to get to terms with my sexuality.

Anyway I have a boyfriend in a committed relationship and one day we gave each other a hug outside TFL on Parliament St. This guy on the other side of the street then suddenly started yelling homophobic abuse at us, profanities saying we are worthy of death etc. and then lobbed an empty beer bottle at us (someone must have dumped it or more likely he has been drinking.)

Anyway we ran back inside the place, I didn't call the gardai or anything and there was no security on the TFL, I wonder if I should have called the Gardai or something, but I was pretty much in tears at this point since its the first time in 23 years I have suffered homophobia and my bf (a few years older) had to calm me down

I hope some people have good answers for you. Alas mine is sadly "You will get used to it". A shame that one _has_ to get used to it - but that is the world we live in. Thankfully less and less - and with less regularity - but it is.

If a wasp stings me I am saddened but I do not feel any animosty or anything for the wasp. It is just a mindless creature doing mindlessly what it does. That is essentially how I view people who have homophobic responses around me and the girls. I simply have reached a point where I just can not bring myself to care what they do - say - or think just because a guy with two girls does not fit into their rigid notions of how the world is meant to be.

It might be theraputic to explore your own feelings on the matter. Either with your partner or with us on here on the thread. What exactly upset you most in this case. The fear of the attack? The surprise? Something that was said in particular? That someone else thought poorly of you? The helplessness of not being able to respond in a more attacking way to this assailant? Something else?

Sometimes when we delve into the exact things that upset us in a situation like this can be very revealing and helpful.

ewan whose army

Deleted User wrote: »

I hope some people have good answers for you. Alas mine is sadly "You will get used to it". A shame that one _has_ to get used to it - but that is the world we live in. Thankfully less and less - and with less regularity - but it is.

If a wasp stings me I am saddened but I do not feel any animosty or anything for the wasp. It is just a mindless creature doing mindlessly what it does. That is essentially how I view people who have homophobic responses around me and the girls. I simply have reached a point where I just can not bring myself to care what they do - say - or think just because a guy with two girls does not fit into their rigid notions of how the world is meant to be.

It might be theraputic to explore your own feelings on the matter. Either with your partner or with us on here on the thread. What exactly upset you most in this case. The fear of the attack? The surprise? Something that was said in particular? That someone else thought poorly of you? The helplessness of not being able to respond in a more attacking way to this assailant? Something else?

Sometimes when we delve into the exact things that upset us in a situation like this can be very revealing and helpful.

It was the way he attacked us for nothing. We were in a safe place, I was with my boyfriend I should have been safe. The fact he called us ******s, that we should be hung since the Bible says we are worthy of death etc.

I did feel helpless, I am non-violent but he was threading to use violence against us, and it was just the way he hated me for just being the person I am. I have done nothing against him, and yet I was scared if he was closer he would seriously hurt me or my boyfriend.

SpaceTime

I wouldn't take it personally. The same mindless morons will start hurling abuse at a tall person, a ginger person, a black person, etc etc etc

They're just brain dead thuggish idiots.

I've been called a 'lanky *****er' and had guys try to attack me because I'm 6'3". My being tall and bigger than then offends them somehow.

I've been called a yank, a paddy etc etc
Female friends of mine have had teenagers bark at them. We even had some asshats in D4 throw a bottle of water out a car window us. This was me & my gf (straight couple)

Not saying you should get used to it. However, don't feel that everyone else thinks like these lowlife bullies. Most people are pretty nice!

I would suggest that you report it to the security at the FL though and the Gardai. Just on the off chance it's some crazy person who's targeting gay friendly venues for some reason. The bible quote is a bit weird.

Also threatening to kill someone is a serious crime in any context

ElKavo

I hate to hear things like this going on. I'm a straight man so I have never suffered anything like this. My cousin whom is out for years still gets abuse both verbal and physical from time to time. Thankfully the former is a rare enough occurrence. I have been out with him and his friends on several occasions and never heard anything like that. Obviously this happens on an all to regular occurrence in our modern liberal society.

If you are not into violence ( who is really, other than for sport I.E. boxing and so on) I might suggest you get your hands on some pepper spray, at lease if you have no option of retreat you would have some form of defense. Also why not give a combat sport a try... You never know you may just like it!

You did make the right choice in the situation btw, retreat is the best form of defense in a situation like that. The other person is obviously of a lower intellect and reason probably wouldn't have been your ally.

On a side note fair play to you for being true to yourself and not hiding away in corners. There will always be bigots in this world if we all gave in to oppression this world would be a VERY boring place.

poundapunnet

It's such a horrible feeling OP sorry that happened to you.

Being a girl, most of the comments I get on the street if I'm with someone tend to be either catcalls :rolleyes: or people just plain shouting "LESBIANS!" (thanks for the update like, I hadn't a clue what I was up to til you yelled it at me?), which is annoying more than scary.

Seeing as this bollix lobbed a bottle though, it'd be worth mentioning to security there, if he's making a habit of it other people might have made complaints too and the gards could be able to do something.

Please don't let this make you afraid of acting naturally with your boyfriend in public though, this behaviour is getting less and less acceptable and less and less common (I think/hope), it's his bigoted fcuking problem, not yours.

SpaceTime

ElKavo wrote: »

You did make the right choice in the situation btw, retreat is the best form of defense in a situation like that. The other person is obviously of a lower intellect and reason probably wouldn't have been your ally.

I would tend to agree with the idea that retreat is the only form of defence in a situation like that. Unfortunately, you never know what these irrational thugs are thinking and they can be extremely unpredictable or even armed with knives.

Definitely phone the Gardai though and let them know what's going on. It could be someone / a group targeting certain venues. Although, it's most likely just a bigoted idiot passing through.

Give Pearse Street Garda Station a ring 01 6669000 as (AFIAK) it covers that area of the city.
There are excellent Garda GLBT-liason officers in all of the major stations in Dublin, Cork and throughout the country at this stage. They're *extremely* approachable and do not hesitate to ring them if there's any issue like this.

Also give the FL a ring and let them know what happened as there's no harm in having their door security aware of it.

If you've ever a serious emergency too, never hesitate to ring 999 or 112 e.g. someone being attacked etc.

ewan whose army

ElKavo wrote: »

I hate to hear things like this going on. I'm a straight man so I have never suffered anything like this. My cousin whom is out for years still gets abuse both verbal and physical from time to time. Thankfully the former is a rare enough occurrence. I have been out with him and his friends on several occasions and never heard anything like that. Obviously this happens on an all to regular occurrence in our modern liberal society.

If you are not into violence ( who is really, other than for sport I.E. boxing and so on) I might suggest you get your hands on some pepper spray, at lease if you have no option of retreat you would have some form of defense. Also why not give a combat sport a try... You never know you may just like it!

You did make the right choice in the situation btw, retreat is the best form of defense in a situation like that. The other person is obviously of a lower intellect and reason probably wouldn't have been your ally.

On a side note fair play to you for being true to yourself and not hiding away in corners. There will always be bigots in this world if we all gave in to oppression this world would be a VERY boring place.

Is CS even legal in Ireland ? I am from England originally (I moved here for a PhD at TCD and well have made it home) and I know there its illegal for a private person to have it.

I guess I should toughen myself up a bit but being that way just isn't part of me,

SpaceTime

ewan whose army wrote: »

Is CS even legal in Ireland ? I am from England originally (I moved here for a PhD at TCD and well have made it home) and I know there its illegal for a private person to have it.

I guess I should toughen myself up a bit but being that way just isn't part of me,

Pepper spray, CS, stun guns etc are completely illegal in Ireland and using them could get you charged with armed assault. Not an advisable route to take.

ElKavo

SpaceTime wrote: »

Pepper spray, CS, stun guns etc are completely illegal in Ireland and using them could get you charged with armed assault. Not an advisable route to take.

Did not know that... The amount of people that I know that have it would have suggested it was.

Please disregard my pepper spray advice, the last thing I would want anyone to do is get into more trouble for just defending them selves.

ewan whose army

ElKavo wrote: »

Did not know that... The amount of people that I know that have it would have suggested it was.

Please disregard my pepper spray advice, the last thing I would want anyone to do is get into more trouble for just defending them selves.

Don't worry

Pretty sure a kick to the crotch would have a similar effect even though I don't fight etc. I used to play rugby, go rock climbing so I guess worst come to worse my size 12 converse flying at your crotch would hurt.

ElKavo

ewan whose army wrote: »

I guess I should toughen myself up a bit but being that way just isn't part of me,

Its not part of a lot of people my man. It does not make you any less of a man because you don't like to fight. You don't need to be a "hard man" to know martial arts or a different form of self defense. A lot of people do them as part of a fitness routine and to bring discipline and order to their life. Their motivation may not be to go and smash some Fu*k up. But their reaction in a close contact situation with no retreat will be one of instinct as that is how they have trained.

I'm not trying to pressure you in to going to a class or anything like that either just a suggestion.

I myself have never been a violent person and would never just start a fight with a randomer on the street. I have taken part in several different martial art forms and now box but still I would never just start a row with someone for the craic. I really do them as part of an overall fitness routine as I find them much more interesting than hours of cardio!!

I will teach all of my children ( 2 boys and 1 girl ) how to defend themselves and encourage them to take up some form of combat sport too. I feel that it is very important for them to have this knowledge, respect for their own power and the discipline that it will bring to their lives. If they choose not to peruse it I will of course respect that too and support their decisions( although my daughter is a bit of a hard ass and has no issue in standing up to boys twice her size). What else could a father do!

Annasopra

Personally I would report this to the gardai.

You could probably ring Pearse Street and report it. It can be reported to any member of the gardai but you might feel more comfortable using an LGBT liaison officer - the list is here but you could ask Pearse Street specifically to speak to one of the LGBT liaison officers. It also does help to identify patterns in hate crime if you do ask for this to be specifically recorded as a hate crime.

http://www.garda.ie/Documents/User/Current%20ELO%20LGBT%20list%202.11.12..pdf

ewan whose army

mango salsa wrote: »

Personally I would report this to the gardai.

You could probably ring Pearse Street and report it. It can be reported to any member of the gardai but you might feel more comfortable using an LGBT liaison officer - the list is here but you could ask Pearse Street specifically to speak to one of the LGBT liaison officers. It also does help to identify patterns in hate crime if you do ask for this to be specifically recorded as a hate crime.

http://www.garda.ie/Documents/User/Current%20ELO%20LGBT%20list%202.11.12..pdf

Okay I will. Being only 23 and only out for a year makes me feel kinda vulnerable after this experience.

Tito Man!

So sorry to hear of your experience, ewan. It's not pleasant. Similar happened to me a few months back. Not as extreme as yours, but the intimidation, the horrible names. It was all there. Thankfully, it was on a busy street and there were Gardaí there. They diffused the whole thing before it got ugly.

I have to say, it did have an effect on me. Since I'd come out and since I started my relationship with my boyfriend, everything had pretty much been sunshine, lollipops and rainbows. The incident that happened to me was a wake-up call. No doubt. Kinda reminded me that not everyone is easy going or accepting of homosexuality.

In terms of being able to defend yourself, that's a must. I would hope that we all know how to defend ourselves, but that we need never have to put into practice what we know. I play football and I work out a bit. I'm also 6' 3", so I'm naturally quite "tidy". I would fancy my chances at being able to defend myself if the need arose. Thankfully it has not.

But never forget the importance of being able to defend yourself and if the need arises to fight dirty, do it. Don't think about it. If you are in danger of being seriously injured or even killed (god forbid), do not hesitate to act and exploit certain weak points of the human body. Obviously, the groin for a male attacker is a very weak spot and a well aimed kick or punch will easily stop them in their tracks. The eyes, the nose, the throat, the stomach/solar-plexus, the knees, the instep. These are also vulnerable, weak and easily exploited areas that you can attack if you need to. It's not pleasant to think about doing something like that to a fellow human being, but if needs must.

I'm seriously considering joining a martial arts class at some point in the near future (New Year Resolution, maybe?). Not for the purposes of pure self defence, but just so I can know a bit more about being able to effectively use my body if I need to.

Again, I'm so sorry to hear about what happened. It's really nasty. I was that soldier. It is very upsetting and unnerving. But don't let the bastards wear you down.

As Alfred said: "Why do we fall, Master Wayne? So we can learn to pick ourselves up".

Best of luck, and be safe!

ewan whose army

You seem to be reacting to two different things then. The first is -

ewan whose army wrote: »

It was the way he attacked us for nothing. We were in a safe place, I was with my boyfriend I should have been safe.

- likely how I would feel too. To be assaulted - for that is what this was - at all is generally nerve racking - let alone when it happens in a place and-or scenario one would otherwise consider "safe". It shakes us to our core. Even those of us who feel well trained in the martials arts enough to know they come out of such scenarios generally unscathed.

Tito Man talks of joining self defence classes and I can second that recommendation. Not with the hope or expectation of ever using those skills. But for the extra layer of security the feeling you at least know how to get out of dire situations can give you. I do BJJ and it gives me the confidence in myself not that I can win fights - because that is generally not the aim of martial arts training - but that I can get myself out of many or most situations unhurt - whether that involves defeating my opponent(s) - or more often - not.

As I said - you tend to get used to these things over time but it never gets easier when someone turns to you with violent intent and all you can do is engage in self observation to make sure the shock of the experience is not adversely affecting you in any way emotionally long term. Loss of sleep. Loss of self confidence. Fear of going out in public again or to that same place again. Watch for these.

The second thing you are reacting to -

ewan whose army wrote: »

The fact he called us ******s, that we should be hung since the Bible says we are worthy of death etc.

- is more what my first post was about. This you DO get used to. You learn to see mindless morons as mindless morons and start to question why you even care what they think.

After all in the moment before that person turned on you - it was you experiencing joy and love - and him experiencing hate and bile. He is the loser here not you. He is the one sad - miserable - and alone in his life - not you.

When the hateful mindless moron shouts bile I feel no more animosity towards him than I do towards a wasp that stings me. Mindless creatures do what mindless creatures do.

Of course attaining that emotional vantage point in my life did not come over night - but self exploration and deep thinking on the issues affecting me got me there eventually. Start by even asking yourself why you even care what such a ball of mindless miserable hatred even thinks of you. Go listen to the John Grant song "God hates Fs" as a nice starting point. And discuss it openly with your partner and other homosexuals in your circle as to how they deal with it too. Communication and community tends to be key in dealing with issues like this.

All in all on behalf of my species I apologise that you had to be subjected to the animal impulses of one mindless idiot. He lets us all down.

SpaceTime

Sadly, there are all too many mindless idiots out there and I think it extends beyond homophobia too. We need to educate people to be a lot more tolerant of differences.

On the scale of intolerance, I don't think Ireland ranks too badly, but at the same time, we still have a lot of work to do.

I think with regard to homophobia, what doesn't help is the fact that the 'establishment' still has aspects of it which are institutionally homophobic although the state has moved on enormously in that regard. However, other organisations haven't, particularly the churches.

I also think that some sports haven't moved far enough either. GAA and rugby have been pretty excellent in recent years with really good support from fans for gay players. However, I think it's bizarre that the world of soccer still hasn't really seen any major openly gay players. There's also a big issue in Hollywood where you're not really seeing any well-known non-straight leading men or leading ladies and there has to be some in reality.

On top of that, I think we really have to more aggressively challenge homophobia. I think it's crept back in in a big way. E.g. the use of the term 'gay' as an abusive language which seems to have stemmed from Southpark wouldn't be acceptable if it was the use of say the n-word.

I was watching 2 Broke Girls (not by choice) recently and I was actually appalled at how they portrayed a gay guy as this walking stereotype. However, that show's full of asian, african-american, general-foreign people with amusing accents stereotypes. I really thought we'd moved beyond all that crap.

I don't really see homophobia as any different from racism or xenophobia. It needs to be treated as such.

There's still a *long* way to go. I think the gay rights movement is about where the african-american rights movement was in the 1970s at this stage to be honest i.e. things have improved, but there's a very long road ahead.

ewan whose army

SpaceTime wrote: »

Sadly, there are all too many mindless idiots out there and I think it extends beyond homophobia too. We need to educate people to be a lot more tolerant of differences.

On the scale of intolerance, I don't think Ireland ranks too badly, but at the same time, we still have a lot of work to do.

I think with regard to homophobia, what doesn't help is the fact that the 'establishment' still has aspects of it which are institutionally homophobic although the state has moved on enormously in that regard. However, other organisations haven't, particularly the churches.

I also think that some sports haven't moved far enough either. GAA and rugby have been pretty excellent in recent years with really good support from fans for gay players. However, I think it's bizarre that the world of soccer still hasn't really seen any major openly gay players. There's also a big issue in Hollywood where you're not really seeing any well-known non-straight leading men or leading ladies and there has to be some in reality.

On top of that, I think we really have to more aggressively challenge homophobia. I think it's crept back in in a big way. E.g. the use of the term 'gay' as an abusive language which seems to have stemmed from Southpark wouldn't be acceptable if it was the use of say the n-word.

I was watching 2 Broke Girls (not by choice) recently and I was actually appalled at how they portrayed a gay guy as this walking stereotype. However, that show's full of asian, african-american, general-foreign people with amusing accents stereotypes. I really thought we'd moved beyond all that crap.

I don't really see homophobia as any different from racism or xenophobia. It needs to be treated as such.

There's still a *long* way to go. I think the gay rights movement is about where the african-american rights movement was in the 1970s at this stage to be honest i.e. things have improved, but there's a very long road ahead.

True the UK and Ireland seem to be ahead of the US with regards to gay people on TV . Both real gay people like Graham Norton and Stephen Fry and fictional LGBT couples but portrayed really well like in Skins with Maxxie, Emily and Naiomi.

The only gay actor I can think of in a leading role on a US series is Neil Patrick Harris who ironically plays the most heterosexual character imaginable. He is a great guy though, I follow him on twitter.

SpaceTime

SpaceTime wrote: »

I was watching 2 Broke Girls (not by choice) recently

That was your mistake right there! I made the mistake of watching one episode of that once; it was a painful twenty minutes that I'll never get back.

ewan whose army wrote: »

True the UK and Ireland seem to be ahead of the US with regards to gay people on TV . Both real gay people like Graham Norton and Stephen Fry and fictional LGBT couples but portrayed really well like in Skins with Maxxie, Emily and Naiomi.

I dunno, the US has had some pretty good gay characters over the years, though I prefer to think of them as "characters who happen to be gay". These are just a few off the top of my head:

*Omar Little from The Wire
*Andrew Van de Kamp from Desperate Housewives
*Lafayette Reynolds from True Blood (camp and flamboyant but still won't hesitate to kick your ass!)
*Marshall Gregson from United States of Tara (this is how you portray a gay teenager, Glee writers!)
*Kerri Weaver from E.R.
*David & Keith from Six Feet Under (once you account for the fact that basically everyone in that show was completely fúcked in the head! :pac:)
*Carol & Susan from Friends....ok so they weren't major characters but they were always portrayed as a loving couple and as good mothers, and this was back in the mid 90's. I think Friends was pretty forward thinking for its time in that regard; the episode where Phoebe's gay ex "comes out" as being straight was really well done.

So I don't think it's a U.S. vs UK thing, I think it just comes down to bad shows having badly written characters and good shows having well written ones.

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

I dunno, the US has had some pretty good gay characters over the years

The OP was looking for _actors_ who are gay, not the characters/roles they portray!

But......

Deleted User wrote: »

*Lafayette Reynolds from True Blood (camp and flamboyant but still won't hesitate to kick your ass!)

Given he is a straight guy playing a gay guy I have to say this is one of my fave actors of all time. He actually made me feel like there might be something in life I could be missing out on by NOT being gay. That is how well he played that role.

I am not gay but if I was going to write up a list of gay icons then Nelsan Ellis would be right up there. Teaching Stephen Fry how to carry it off better "given what he got".

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

The OP was looking for _actors_ who are gay, not the characters/roles they portray!

Actually he mentioned both:

ewan whose army wrote: »

True the UK and Ireland seem to be ahead of the US with regards to gay people on TV . Both real gay people like Graham Norton and Stephen Fry and fictional LGBT couples but portrayed really well like in Skins with Maxxie, Emily and Naiomi.

Though there does seem to be something of a lack of "out" actors who play straight characters. T.R. Knight from Grey's Anatomy (a show I can't stand) and Portia de Rossi being the only other names I can think of other than NPH.

Ambersky

Im sorry this happened to you ewan whos army and I would like to agree with so much that has been said here already. Dont let it get to you in such a way that it holds you back, report it to add to statistics on hate crime, consider how to protect yourself or build up confidence if needed.

Going with the thread title of dealing with
homophobia
I think people can come to different conclusions when something like this happens to them. If they are a bit ashamed of their sexuality an attack like this can confirm the feeling of shame. Its great that you live in a time and place and are the kind of person who up to now has never experienced homophobia ewan whos army. It sounds like you clearly know it was the aggressors who had the problem and I hope it never again happens to you.

Experiences like this can also cause some people empathise more with others it has happened to. Maybe they look at the coverage of what is happening in Russia a bit differently for example. We know in theory homophobic attacks are not the fault of the person being attacked but if its never happened to you, then why did it happen to those other people.
When it happens to you, its then you really know it wasn't your fault and the theory about how something can happen without you doing anything at all to cause it, is now personal. It can kind of come as a surprise to know it as your own lived experience, happening to you, not someone on television.
When I have been attacked I tend to get angry and indignant and I want to change the world and make it stop but I am speaking as someone who came out decades ago and have been twice run out of my home for being gay. There have been a lot of changes in both law and social acceptance since then but still I think I have used those experiences to make me stronger.
I wonder do you feel any of that ewan whos army or is it completely different or too soon for you yet to think or feel stuff like that.